UK Expands Surveillance!

""The post about not being allowed to smoke in your own car is total and utter crap.""

Well u know it all dont u !!

Funny i am a driving instructor and it has been added to my breif to instruct new pupils that it will no longer be allowed to smoke in your car if there are passengers in the vehicle , and if it is a company owned vehicle u are NOT allowed to light up in it at all.. soft tops are exempt!!

Pipe n smoke it !!

Originally posted by realyweely
If you arent doing anything wrong you have nothing to fear

Problem is, you don't set the laws, they do. You mite have nothing to hide now, but if the laws change to something you couldn't even possibly imagine in your wildest dreams, then would you be so carefree about the cameras and monitoring technology?

Now another spying technology to fear in the UK. What is so funny, they have no qualms addressing it as such. You can read about it here.

This is getting ridiculous. It seems to me that they are rolling out new spying technology on the public every single day!

How about this one... A van with back-scattering x-ray technology! Now they can just drive along and x-ray anything they want - look into cars, buildings, people etc... This is a promotional piece obviously cobbled together by the company trying to sell the technology - which will no doubt appear on UK streets sometime in the near future!

OMG....

So there i am one nite getting it on with the missus and then few months later i turn up on the worlds most amazing whatever ??? well not lover thats for sure, but , i dont like this one little bit . Thats going too far !!

Originally posted by realyweely
I still dont see what all the fuss is about. If you arent doing anything wrong you have nothing to fear from the cameras

Pastor Martin Niemöller wrote one of the most innocently chilling poems on the holocaust emphasising just that very point:

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

...Just hope that there will be someone to speak out for you.

Originally posted by citizen smith

Originally posted by realyweely
I still dont see what all the fuss is about. If you arent doing anything wrong you have nothing to fear from the cameras

Pastor Martin Niemöller wrote one of the most innocently chilling poems on the holocaust emphasising just that very point:

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

...Just hope that there will be someone to speak out for you.

That poem was on the BBC's Have-your-say today. Was that you or were two great minds thinking alike some time today? lol

Originally posted by realyweely
..its amazing what a magnet can do to an IC chip on an ID card..

Therein lies the problem. If you destroy the embedded IC by magnetic induction, hammer blow, microwave oven etc, the next time you are asked for a producer and nothing shows on the card reader because the chip is destroyed what d'you imagine will happen?

No doubt you will be asked to account for how your vard had come to be unreadable, and that willful destruction of government property (yes, the ID card you paid £100 for is yours as far as the personal data goes, but the card itself is still property of the Crown..as is your passport) is a criminal offence.



[edit on 21-5-2007 by citizen smith]

great thread btw,
what disturbs me with the increase in surveillance(which has many forms), is that we are sleepwalking into a totalitarian state. We now demand from our governments complete protection, how many times do you hear when something bad happens, "why did the government allow this to happen". So naturally the government has to find a solution,and to do this it requires more and more information.Paradoxically the more information the state collects,the more "law abiding" citizens will be criminalized( how many "fixed penalty notices" does it take to make you a criminal?).
More importantly we seem to be willing to give up what little rights we have, for our safety! "Human Rights" is used as a derogatory term.

We, after witnessing the horror`s of totalitarian states over the last 70 years( Hitler,Stalin,Pol pot,et.al) should NEVER allow governments to,have the power to control us. Always remember "power corupts". Some might say that i am taking this argument to far, but all totaliarian regimes have one thing in common, one portion of the populace survials and controls the rest of the population. How long is it going to be, before it is your patriotic duty to inform on your nieghbour? How far away is the time when your opinions are used against you?

sorry about the spelling.

"every journey starts with one step"

Originally posted by citizen smith
...Just hope that there will be someone to speak out for you.

Yeah like we simply arresting people for no reason....maybe you havent noticed this but frankly the police are undermanned and incapable of any major police action.

No offence mate but that has to be one of the most paraniod posts I have read in this thread.....

Therein lies the problem. If you destroy the embedded IC by magnetic induction, hammer blow, microwave oven etc, the next time you are asked for a producer and nothing shows on the card reader because the chip is destroyed what d'you imagine will happen?

They'll go: Do you have any other ID?
Like I dunno drivers liceanse, passport, discharge book, birth certificate, etc.
Whoopteedo you didnt bring you ID, its not a crime to be without ID. Infact all it does is make them suspect and they can only hold you for 24 hours.

No doubt you will be asked to account for how your vard had come to be unreadable, and that willful destruction of government property (yes, the ID card you paid £100 for is yours as far as the personal data goes, but the card itself is still property of the Crown..as is your passport) is a criminal offence.
[edit on 21-5-2007 by citizen smith]

Yeah and how many times have you been hauled to the cells for loosing your passport or damaging your drivers liceanse? Please I'd be very interested to know exactly how many times you've been charged with destruction of government property. I havent been arrested yet and I've lost my passport before , no riot squad or ARU knocking on my door. But then again its the voice of reason that is always drowned out by the panicking non swimmer isnt it...

Originally posted by devilwasp
No offence mate ...

...and none taken

I guess I should lay off the espressos for a while, well, maybe least after 'exam season' when I can get proper sleep.

It wasn't meant as paranoid as it seemed, more just wanting to illustrate the point of what believing in "If you've got nothing to hide..." can have

devilwasp... I'm suprised by your response! Do you honestly feel that all of this surveillance is no big deal? You can't connect the loss of personal liberties with an increase in surveillance? Throughout this thread I have documented about a dozen different ways in which YOU are currently being surveilled and you seem to find it appropriate! Interesting...

Did you ever hear the anecdote about the frog and the boiling pot of water? It goes something like this... If you throw a frog into a pot of boiling water, it will struggle to escape; if you throw a frog into a pot of cold water and slowly turn up the heat, it will cook to death without realizing it. Do you see the correlation yet?

All of this discussion about "If you've nothing to hide, you've nothing to fear" or "It's not a big deal" is the pot of cold water and you are the frog. Take into consideration the militarization of police forces. Take into consideration that governments are already asking for people to snitch on their neighbors, co-workers even their own family members. Continue that with the fact that ALL of your personal information is being cobbled together into a database that will allow the government to make predictions about your disposition or behavior - is it still "no big deal?"

Sure, there may be no penalties for not having or destroying your ID... yet. That would be the boiling pot. They need to make people comfortable with being surveilled, data warehoused and plugged into fancy algorithms in which to categorize BEFORE they start implementing round-ups. Soon enough you will be arrested simply for "looking suspicious" or acting a certain way. Are you honestly going to be ok with that?

www.abovetopsecret.com...'

The UK police are now using high tech remote controlled flying cameras to keep tabs on the 'criminals'

This is amazing, check out the ease of monitoring using these new eyes in the skies]





[edit on 21/5/2007 by deaman88

[edit on 21/5/2007 by deaman88]

In addition to the increase in surveillance powers, a new Home Office initiative could set the legislation in place to actually detain those that could just be considered a risk. No need to catch the perpetrator in the act of preparing-for or in the act-of a crime, just the assumed potential risk would be enough.

Plan to identify potential violent offenders condemned
"..Council staff, charity workers and doctors will be obliged to tip off police about anyone they believe might commit a violent crime, under a Home Office plan revealed in a leaked document today.

The proposals have raised civil liberties concerns by suggesting a lowering of the danger threshold at which individuals are put under surveillance and even detained by authorities. It also could lead to large amounts of personal information being circulated between agencies.

The idea has chilling echoes of the sci-fi film Minority Report, in which Tom Cruise plays a US policeman in the "pre-crime" unit who arrests would-be perpetrators before they can carry out crimes.."
ATS Thread: Secret Plans to turn staff into police informers

Even the unborn aren't safe from the ever scrutinising eye of the state

Unborn babies targeted in crackdown on criminality
"..Unborn babies judged to be at most risk of social exclusion and turning to criminality are to be targeted in a controversial new scheme to be promoted by Downing Street today.."

And all for our own safety of course...double-plus good!

To kozmo -
Well as I said I currently live in two countries in the UK, and attend two universities, and in both of them most students do not care about 'politics' or being deprived of our freedoms, most of them do not even vote! I dont know the situation in the US but as far as Britain is concerned, although a bit of a generalisation, I think most universities are like this.

Ok to all these people who seem to think we are going to jump up and rebel against the government 'when the time comes' in true V for Vendetta style...rubbish!
There is no way people are going to give up their 'comfort' and 'security' just because they are being deprived of their freedoms that they dont really care about anyway.

Think about it! Our society works on the basis of Consumerism and trivial pursuit. The whole system is designed in a way in that you are DEPENDENT on it for your own survival.

And just HOW do you think this revolution is going to happen, the government controls the Media, the Newspapers, the Radio, and even wants to control the internet (if they dont already, it is serverly monitored in either case). Phone calls can be listened in on in a instant from mobiles and landlines, txts can be intercepted. On the street people can be monitored from CCTV and groups/crowds can be dispersed legally by the police, or by those speaker CCTV cameras. Soon you will also be able to be heard on the street with those mircophones. You will be tracked in your vechile wherever you go, you will be tracked by your ID card/chip implant wherever you go, you are tracked by you passport if you leave the country, whatever you buy can be tracked on your cards (use cash!) but soon with the chip implants they even want to replace physical money with chip credit card.
So just how do you think you will start planning and implementing the governments downfall?

And if you do start and get caught...your life is OVER.
You will be detained under the terrorism act, which you most certainly will be accused of) and probably shipped off to an non-EU country to be tortured until you confess at which point you will be in prison for the rest of your life.

So are you really going to risk it for the sake of a few lost freedoms, if there ever was a time to act it is NOW because in a few years it will be next to impossible, but are people really goint to give up their confortable armchair lives and revolt?

Oh lemox, you underestimate human nature and our desire for freedom! True, consumerism is the bane of human existence and other such trivial pusuits, however, restrict our liberty just enough and see what happens.

Now, I cannot speak for the whole of the UK but I can speak generically for the US - we have revolted before and those in power had better understand that we most certainly will again if pushed too far!

People's eyes are beginning to open and awareness is permeating the sub-culture of America. The time is nearing...

Originally posted by kozmo
devilwasp... I'm suprised by your response!

Do you honestly feel that all of this surveillance is no big deal?

Yeah, because the fact is if they wanted to spy on any one of us it wouldnt take much and you wouldnt know bugger all about it. How difficult is it for you to follow someone discreetly? How about place a camera across the street or even place a UAV above a persons house? Come on, your not honouestly suggesting that either of our countries lacks the military capacity to do this? Atleast on a small scale.

You can't connect the loss of personal liberties with an increase in surveillance?

Personal liberties? I spend most of my time either working or canoeing, seriously though...why would they want to watch you?

Throughout this thread I have documented about a dozen different ways in which YOU are currently being surveilled and you seem to find it appropriate! Interesting...

If I have nothing to hide why should I fear them?
Seriously unless parliment decides to spend some ACTUAL money on the police forces to do thier jobs we wouldnt need cameras. Do you know that firemen get regulary stoned and attacked while on call? Do you know how many people are stabbed or mugged in major cities? Quite a few, infact the numbers have been rising. It isnt to the stage of marshall law but frankly anything to prevent further increase in crime IMO is welcome.

Did you ever hear the anecdote about the frog and the boiling pot of water? It goes something like this... If you throw a frog into a pot of boiling water, it will struggle to escape; if you throw a frog into a pot of cold water and slowly turn up the heat, it will cook to death without realizing it. Do you see the correlation yet?

Its vague but recognisable, sorry but we're not in big brother just yet. Why dont you read up on our police forces "abilities" as of late and tell me that they are really able to stop ANY kind crime, go ahead....I dare ya..

Take into consideration the militarization of police forces.

Militarization? We have a few bobbies with MP5's and glocks, sorry but its going to take more than a few SMG's, a few pistols , a few carbines and a sniper rifle or two to take down the mass public.
Hell have you SEEN the police when there is a riot on?

Take into consideration that governments are already asking for people to snitch on their neighbors, co-workers even their own family members.

You mean nieghborhood watch association? Oh come on! I had one at my old living area and they were the worst people imaginable to report crime, seriously this isnt the KGB in russia its the local bobbies in the UK its no where NEAR comparable.

Continue that with the fact that ALL of your personal information is being cobbled together into a database that will allow the government to make predictions about your disposition or behavior - is it still "no big deal?"

Wow you mean my birthday? Or my name? Dear lord they might actually spell my name right on a card one day.....
Come on, the government isnt interested in the mass public , its too open to variables. Its easier to control the variables than it is to control the crowd.

Sure, there may be no penalties for not having or destroying your ID... yet.

What? Oh come on....your serious? The fine itself is paying for the damm replacement , seriously!

That would be the boiling pot. They need to make people comfortable with being surveilled, data warehoused and plugged into fancy algorithms in which to categorize BEFORE they start implementing round-ups. Soon enough you will be arrested simply for "looking suspicious" or acting a certain way. Are you honestly going to be ok with that?

Our police services/ armed services are in no way or shape able to do this on a country wide scale. Look at the war in iraq , look at the troubles in northern ireland. We struggled to handle a few terrorists in NI and look how badly we are doing trying to keep peace in iraq! Secondly they are not mindless soldiers you know these bobbies or even the soldiers themselves. They're people, they do know the difference between right and wrong, hell you never been given a break by a cop for speeding or being cheeky?

No offence mate but you americans need to cut back on the caffine and start drinking tea or something else to calm you down....

Originally posted by lemox
Well as I said I currently live in two countries in the UK, and attend two universities, and in both of them most students do not care about 'politics' or being deprived of our freedoms, most of them do not even vote!...I think most universities are like this.

Actually Lemox, you hit the nail on the head here. I'm a mature student and I can quite honestly say that almost all my fellow students on my course (80+) are politically unaware and have little interest in social issues, which is rather surprising as the subject I'm studying demands at least some understanding of social theory and current affairs

Ok to all these people who seem to think we are going to jump up and rebel against the government 'when the time comes' in true V for Vendetta style...rubbish! There is no way people are going to give up their 'comfort' and 'security' just because they are being deprived of their freedoms that they dont really care about anyway.

It wont be massed-ranks of cloth-capped workers marching on Parliament from www.bbc.co.uk...)" target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow">Jarrow like my grandfather recalls, unless societal deprivation and loss of basic amenity to put food on your table affect enough people, again, times that my grandfather lived through and can remember vividly

Think about it! Our society works on the basis of Consumerism and trivial pursuit. The whole system is designed in a way in that you are DEPENDENT on it for your own survival

...and this consumer society that solely relies on food and consumables based on 'just-in-time' supply-chain logistics supplied round the clock is far more suceptible to break-down than could be imagined. For instance, the en.wikipedia.org...)" target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow">petrol protest of 2000 demonstrated just this.

So are you really going to risk it for the sake of a few lost freedoms..

A few lost freedoms??? If thats your sentiment then why not just give up now, turn on your TV, pop an instant-pizza in the microwave, sit back and get ready to vote on the next round of Pop Idol.

but are people really goint to give up their confortable armchair lives and revolt?

Absolutely! I took part in the Poll-Tax and Criminal Justice Act protests amongst others, have faced the lines of armoured foot and mounted riot police; and it is up to us who can see the storm coming to make others aware, to educate, to lead from the front...

As Zapata impassionately implored.."It is better to die on your feet than live on your knees"

Wolfie out.

Originally posted by citizen smith
A few lost freedoms??? If thats your sentiment then why not just give up now, turn on your TV, pop an instant-pizza in the microwave, sit back and get ready to vote on the next round of Pop Idol.

You misunderstood me here citizen smith, and if you had read my previous posts would not have responsed in such a way. The phase a 'loss of a few freedoms' was used in the context of how most people see it. This is not how I see it as I have already shown.

Originally posted by citizen smith
Absolutely! I took part in the Poll-Tax and Criminal Justice Act protests amongst others, have faced the lines of armoured foot and mounted riot police; and it is up to us who can see the storm coming to make others aware, to educate, to lead from the front...

Again you misunderstand, Im not doubting you, me or others either on this website or of similar mind will stand and fight.
You say it is up to us to educate other and lead the front. This is excatly what I am doing. What I am saying is most people dont care, plain and simple, you can tell them, 'educate' them, but it will go in one ear and come out the other, even if they take notice, it will not be dwelled upon for very long espcially when everday stuff gets in the way.

Originally posted by kozmo
Oh lemox, you underestimate human nature and our desire for freedom! True, consumerism is the bane of human existence and other such trivial pusuits, however, restrict our liberty just enough and see what happens.

Now, I cannot speak for the whole of the UK but I can speak generically for the US - we have revolted before and those in power had better understand that we most certainly will again if pushed too far!

Yes, the UK has also revolted, your dwelling on the past rather then looking at the present. I dont underestimate 'human nature' as the basic human nature is survival of oneself. This society is what allows us to survive, we may have a urge for freedom but for most people this is taken care of in fiction through fantasy in movies, videogames etc.

Most people seem to be ignoring or not comprehending the social situation of the UK. There seems to be an attitude that 'when the time comes people will stand and fight'.

First off the Poll tax, yes that was a 'success' leading to the downfall of Thatcher, but dont we have the council tax which is basically the same? Also the poll tax riots were 17 years ago and society has changed a lot, and of course the government would have learnt from its mistake to make sure this sort of thing would not happen again.
I too stood against the Criminal Justice Act and also the Legislative and Regulatory Reform Act 2006, both however were passed.
We stood, we fought, we lost.

Some people are not concerned about the loss of freedoms, no amount of convincing or educating will help. These people just dont want to know because for example they are too wrapped up in themselves (and their ego-trips). These are the people that watch the lastest soaps, read celeb mags, and are too concerned with themselves to even think of others let alone society etc.
Some people do know whats happening but wont do anything about it. These types of people are those with families, commitments etc that dont want to 'upset' the way of society as it will jeapodise the survival of their family or interest.
Some people do know whats happening and do act, but from what I see compared to the rest of society they are in the minority.






[edit on 21-5-2007 by lemox]

[edit on 21-5-2007 by lemox]

Originally posted by lemox
First off the Poll tax, yes that was a 'success' leading to the downfall of Thatcher, but dont we have the council tax which is basically the same? Also the poll tax riots were 17 years ago and society has changed a lot, and of course the government would have learnt from its mistake to make sure this sort of thing would not happen again.

Society hasn't changed that much, but what has, and was probably one of the determining factors in the massed Poll Tax uprisings of the early 90's was the economic climate. The UK was on the brink of a massive recession after the 'loadsmoney' 80's. The over-inflated housing market finally burst and plunged many homeowners into negative mortgage-equity

Currently, mortgage and personal credit-debt levels are at unprecedented levels even in comparison to the 80's heyday, and estimated at £1.3 trillion and with interest rates set to rise ever higher and debtors squeezed even harder, it can only be a matter of time before we are set to return to those days. Only then will we see the true colours of the surveillance-state as parliament seeks to maintain control and quell any signs of public dissent

I too stood against the Criminal Justice Act and also the Legislative and Regulatory Reform Act 2006

Kudos

We stood, we fought, we lost.

But what is important is that, regardless, we stood and we fought

HI realyweely.

still dont see what all the fuss is about. If you arent doing anything wrong you have nothing to fear from the cameras and its amazing what a magnet can do to an IC chip on an ID card.

Are you really just saying it, or do you really believe it? Or do you have to say that?


Hi completenuttergit.

So there i am one nite getting it on with the missus and then few months later i turn up on the worlds most amazing whatever ??? well not lover thats for sure, but , i dont like this one little bit . Thats going too far !!

Yeah and if you don't like it, and speak out against it, in the future you could find yourself listed. Soon you will have to be a drone and repeat, if you have done nothing wrong, you have nothing to worry about.



Hi tonyc.

I wouldn't say everyone is sleepwalking into a totalitarian state, some are doing it with eyes wide open, or wide shut. Many are aware and they just don't seem to care. This is the part that has me mentally stunned. I just don't understand how they can not be protesting, making others aware, but some seem to think this is great, and now I understand how Hitlers Germany happened. How the former East Germany happened.

I always thought there had to be something wrong, but just like us, there were people warning away, the good it did them. Some were very aware of what was coming, and like us, most did nothing. So history will soon repeat, because we have obviously not learnt, or we have forgotten.


Hi devilwasp.

What about when this replaces all forms of id, and it's the only id?


Hi kozmo.

Frog in cold water that is being turn up, that is the perfect analogy, and by the time the frogs all wake up to fully realise what is happening they will be boiled. (Chipped and enslaved.)

In part it's also we just don't want to believe that our government would do that to us. Since I became a target, I have been thinking a lot about the relationship that people have with the government. I mean it's almost like a paternal relationship. We tend to trust them, require certain rights and protections from them, and we don't have a tendency to believe they would do this stuff to us. Thus why so many people do not want to examine if 9/11 was an inside job.

We trust the state and do not want to believe that they could do such terrible things, or be plotting such terrible things. If I was not seeing it myself, experiencing it myself, I don't think I could believe it either.


Hi lemox.

And just HOW do you think this revolution is going to happen, the government controls the Media, the Newspapers, the Radio, and even wants to control the internet (if they dont already, it is serverly monitored in either case). Phone calls can be listened in on in a instant from mobiles and landlines, txts can be intercepted. On the street people can be monitored from CCTV and groups/crowds can be dispersed legally by the police, or by those speaker CCTV cameras. Soon you will also be able to be heard on the street with those mircophones. You will be tracked in your vechile wherever you go, you will be tracked by your ID card/chip implant wherever you go, you are tracked by you passport if you leave the country, whatever you buy can be tracked on your cards (use cash!) but soon with the chip implants they even want to replace physical money with chip credit card.
So just how do you think you will start planning and implementing the governments downfall?

This generation is not the kind to give up their comforts. Everyone is like, yeah well if we do become a totalitarian state, we can just over through the government. Are you kidding me?

As a recently aware target of the government, let me tell you a bit about my world. I have god knows what, that have moved in on all 4 sides where I live. My Internet, phone, mail, email activity is monitored. At work I have my fellow co-workers who are all snitches for the state, being asked to monitor me, cause they want to know where I am.

Do I have any idea why? No. I have learnt that this goes back years, and I had no idea. Then again I had no idea that there were civilian snitches all over the place. I am a pretty independent, self contained person. not really clued out, but not reliant on anyone or anything either. Always been law abiding. I understand that that they are going for the paranoid or crazy thing, from what I have been able to gather.

I am amazed that this happens in society, but I have a whole Internet full of people that tell me this has happened for years in society. Cointelpro, Red Squads, this is nothing new. I have no idea why.

I do know that I am extremely outspoken, somewhat opinionated. I can also tell you that it is garbage if you think this generation will give up their comfort zone, to plot the over throw of the government. They would snitch each other out so fast, it would make peoples heads spin, for 2 minutes of luxury in front of the tv. They have us, and they know it. I am not trying to be negative, but the last 10 months have been a real eye opener. About myself, the world, and people's willingness to go along with whatever.

Most of society are easily given into peer pressure, and will go along with whatever everyone else is doing. If people are comfortable or going along with snitching they will too. If people are ok with cameras, chips, surveillance, Internet monitoring, phone monitoring, cashless society, they will go along with it too. Have you seen the people that are up and coming?

They are not being taught to be independent, some of course are, there are exceptions to every rule, and those exceptions will no doubt find themselves under surveillance soon enough, or being set up so they can become part of this enslavement process.

So are you really going to risk it for the sake of a few lost freedoms, if there ever was a time to act it is NOW because in a few years it will be next to impossible, but are people really goint to give up their confortable armchair lives and revolt?

What is that charming little old saying, speak now or forever hold your peace? I think people will hold their peace.

[edit on 21-5-2007 by Harassment101]