UK Expands Surveillance!

Originally posted by citizen smith

Originally posted by Dallas
If your innocent then I'd suppose there's nothing to feel concerned with

The concern is that there will a polar-shift from the legal cornerstone of 'Innocent until proven guilty, beyond all reasonable doubt' to 'Guilty until proven innocent'.

_______________

Certainly hear your points citizen smith, and I'm not suggesting there would Not be a trade off. But suggest which is going to be better more security of life v. observance in major areas or increased physical crime by removal of the cameras?

If someone is captured on video doing an injustice, should the tape of the incident be thrown out when it's indisputable proof? Dunno?, seems to me no. The camera is both a reactionary tool and an indisputable witness.

Dallas

My general concern about the proliferation of surveillance cameras, both public and private, is that the electromagnetic signals the cameras generate can be efficiently filtered from environment, harvested using some technology like TEMPEST, geolocated by time differences in signal reception at various monitoring stations, and correlated with GPS data from cellphone tracking devices.

Perhaps supercomputing intitiatives such as the HTMT, sponsored by the NSA, DARPA, and NASA, provide some of the data-processing capabilities needed for this.

Even some in authority have concerns about the amount of CCTV's in the UK. See today's BBC.

news.bbc.co.uk...

Or, alternatively, check out this ATS Thread on the matter

Brought to you by StuNet....

[edit on 20/5/07 by stumason]

I was reading this wiki article on surveillance and about 2/3 of the way down the page it has information on how to avoid surveillance.

I don't know what purpose anyone wanted to write it for. But it's interesting to read.

Here's what some folk in the UK have to say about it.newsforums.bbc.co.uk...

I am employed by a national company that serves every home and business in the British Isles. No prizes for guessing folks!
Recently security has been upgraded and improved and all employees have been issued with an'intelligent' photo identity card. I do not have any issues with this as a security measure, however, I object to the technology employed along with it that tracks and logs every individuals movements in and outside the building for an undetermined distance.
I understand from trade union representatives that this is for health and safety reasons.
I'm always suspicious concerning the motives of the company as I believe that there is an hidden agenda other than health and safety issues.
Big Brother arrives in the workplace!

The problem is that small local councils see the Surveillance cams catching crims and they think if they put one in their village they are going to catch people spitting on the pavement.

I see a point to surveillance cameras in places. I also notice that some that have the loudspeaker attached have saved some people from being beaten up.

I think it all comes down to a lack of discipline and lack of parenting skills with an awfull lot of families. When I was a kid in the 60's if I did something wrong I got a whack round the ear. If I got caught by the plod doing something wrong, he would whack me round the ear then take me home and my dad would whack me round the ear. If I did wrong in school I got the slipper or the cane, yet none of that caused me the so-called psychological' damage that some of the do-gooders social workers says it does.
If society doesnt want to punish children when they are young and do wrong then they must be prepared to accept cameras to catch the scum when they get older and misbehave.

An old boy near me had his car stolen by 2, 18 year olds. They drove the car round all night then set light to it. They got caught and got 60 hours community service, what message does this set out to others?
Society has to get its priorities right, untill then we wil have to suffer Surveillance cameras.

But as I said before, we are British, weve chopped kings heads off and brought down Governments, we even got Thatcher to drop her devious Poll tax after the demos. The British people can be pushed so far... then our backs go up. I have confidence !.

Originally posted by citizen smith

Originally posted by realyweely
If it all gets too much remember we are British, weve thrown out Governments before and chopped off a Kings head. If weve done it once we can do it again.

I couldn't agree with you more...we should have reminded Big Tony that even Kings aren't immune to public discontent...


...But then you went and spoiled a damn good point with this tripe..

Now the Muslims ??? Dont get me started on the Muslims

Just exactly what purpose does Muslim-bashing serve? Nothing at all except to show that you ,sir, wear a badge of cultural ignorance on your sleeve with pride.

Where was the Muslim Bashing? I dont see any because there was none.
Now if you want some I can give you pages of it. But Im not a racist, the colour of my wife would negate that idea.

I am entitled to my opinion sir, as you are to yours.

well after reading this thread i decided to join ats..

britain is fast becoming a police state,you have to be blind not to see it.
to all those of you outside the uk..this video may help explain what is happening here in the uk....also it is underway in the US
go to google video and type in suspect nation...i cant seem to post vid links here

[edit on 20-5-2007 by 3x3cut3d]

[edit on 20-5-2007 by 3x3cut3d]

I may have jumped the gun somewhat, but when you made a remark like this:

Now the Muslims ??? Dont get me started on the Muslims

I interpreted that as 'muslim-bashing'...which I take offence at to be quite honest.

You certainly are entitled to your opinion as is everyone else, and you make some good points, but perhaps the context of your muslim remark had been lost on me somewhere along the line.

Apologies if that was the case.

Hi kozmo.

I am curious as to why UK citizens are allowing this to happen in their society? Who governs who? Where is the uprising from the citizenry demanding an end to this? Or is this is a welcomed event in your society? I'm not mocking; I genuinely want to understand why you have become the modern Orwellian 1984 Big Brother society and yet it appears to the
outside world that there is a tacit acceptance of this?

I am curious why the people of the planet are allowing this stuff to go unchecked. It's like they have no idea, or they just don't care. We are becoming, no we have become a society that spies on each other, is under surveillance, and soon will be fully chipped and tagged. No one is doing anything, no one is saying anything. I mean we do discuss it on forums like this, but it's not on any political agenda. Outside of places like this there is no concern, and when it is brought up, people seem to think it's for their own good, that why your government is spying on you. Are we really sheeple?


Hi Spreadthetruth

Lets all Obey Big Brother and live mindlessly happy lives!

So what you are saying is you don't want your jelly bean flavored matrix red pill? :-)



Hi neformore.

Seriously. This whole "police state" thing about the UK has been done to death.

If it had been done to death enough, people would be protesting in the streets and the cameras would be gone. So looks like it has not been done enough. Also most people don't even realise that if you are living in a police state, you won't necessarily know it. That's a myth that I found out about. People can live in a police state and not realise it's become a police state.


Hi lemox.

Todays society is all too willing to give away any freedoms it had because of the fear of 'terrorism' so they can live their lives in some sort of 'safety and security', and the UK seems to be the 'test subject' for the NWO.

The whole thing you said was just brilliant and I could just hug you, cause you get it. We are so wrapped up, we see the changes coming, but most will have no idea of the full repercussions till it's too late, and then most will either fall in line, or fall through the cracks. It's truly horrible.


Hi citizen smith.

The 'database' state is already here and growing by the day as supplementary to those surveillance powers and over 700,000 school kids have already been biometrically scanned and recorded, despite parental opposition.

The 2008/9 Parliamentary session will be the real crunch when the national ID card becomes mandatory for reciept of ANY public service.

It's like that Tom Cruise movie that I never saw, where they try to predict crimes before they happen. All the technology to predict intentions and thoughts that are coming out are really cutting edge, but combined with everything else it's pretty scary.

I can tell you that to be tracked and monitored 24/7 is very scary and frightening. If it's happening to others, maybe people won't have a problem with it, but it's so violating. To have everything you say and do, listened to, watch, and in some way shape or form recorded, strips away from you, just a little bit at a time.

I think we still have a chance of changing this, before it becomes everyone else's life. Before we are all full time prisoners on this planet, but people need to wake up, and it's just like that movie the Matrix, till they wake up, they are essentially not your friends, cause they just can't see. Neither could I, till it was too late.



Hi shrunkensimon.

"keep belongings with you" "you are being montiored for your safety and security" "if you see anything suspicious, dob on your fellow man"..

I almost want to gag reading that. Yet what makes me want to gag even more is knowing that people just accept this, and are not even willing to confront it. It's like in V4 Vendetta. You scare them enough and they will give up their rights, freedoms and liberty. And we know those who would give up liberty for temporary security will have neither. So sad.


Hi ImaginaryReality1984.

Also people who have commited aabsolutely no crime and were simply helping an investigation have had their details put into the database.

We are all being treaty as criminals, this is a scary start to the end of democracy.

Yeah you are starting to get it. It will not matter if you are a criminal or a saint, you will all be prisoners and treated like criminals.

It starts out with a lie that people will believe, and what they let happen to others, will eventually be their fates. Just most don't really understand what they are allowing to happen to others.

Hi wigit.

He also needs the card for libraries, buses, swimming baths etc. though can still use cash for them, for now. I complained when I heard of this going on behind my back but was told it had nothing to do with a national I.D card, future cashless society etc. It was to stop children getting their lunch money stolen at school. Now they have to queue up with a weeks money in their hands to put it into a machine at the school. Doesn't make sense.

Right and setting up a smart card or debit card system would not have worked just as well, vs putting his info into a computer. So it begins.

Your post was very enjoyable to read.

[edit on 20-5-2007 by Harassment101]

Hi kozmo.

What is interesting, at least to me, is that it is being portrayed here in the U.S. as business as usual in the UK - that everyone in on board and loves the idea of constant surveillance.

What about Canada? Don't forget the UK's other child. We have no cameras, nothing to compare to the UK's, but who does. What we do have is huge snitching network, which you all have as well. We have in the malls, food court, trains, workplaces, apartment buildings, on every street corner, in most restaurants, government buildings, snitches. I mean civilian spies. It's almost like the T.I.P.S. program on crack.

Some people don't like it, and don't want to be a part of it, others are just down with it. I am against it, but that could be because I am seeing the dark side of this Stasi state that my city has come to. Most think that they are doing something good, and helping the country. Most are not aware, that they are playing a huge role in their future enslavement. It would
almost be humorous, if it was not so sad.

I am really trying to understand this in intimate detail.

I too am trying to understand this, wither I want to or not.

Hi lemox.

I mean is people just dont care, and those who do are in the small minority and thus are easily branded by the media/police officals/or even their neighbours as troublesome/rioters or maybe even terrorists.

The growing survillance i.e to record EVERYTHING you do and say is so these people cannot:
- First gain support by 'waking up' more people.
- Then act against the government.

That's just so well said. You know when I saw the Matrix when it just came out, I thought it had no basis in reality whatsoever, and now I see how wrong I was. The thing is you can't wake up people till they are ready.

When the small minority are branded as trouble makers or whatever, then people just accept that it's true, and they don't stop and question things, cause the government told them it's true. We are almost all conditioned to be like this.

To have us live in a controlled chaos is exactly the plan. Think about it, keep the citizens scared by releasing prisoners, not punishing criminals so they are not detered, threats of terrorism, not trusting your neighbours etc, means everyone is very willing to give up rights and freedoms to 'protect themselves' against everyone else. All the while this
'controlled chaos' is monitored and tracked on all the survillance devices used.

Why can't everyone else get this? But I couldn't either till it was too late.

Hi Heronumber0

Well I believe that I was a test case for 24 hour surveillance 20 years ago in Scotland. My car was bugged. My house was bugged. Fibre optic cameras were used everywhere I went, including places of work.

The truth is, the truth will not come out. When it finally does and people try their little lame rebellion, they will be declared enemy combatants and put in the prisons that are being built. The truth will not come out, unless people that are being targeted help make it come out. The truth is, unless this is happening to you, most people don't care, and can't conceptualise that governments could do this to their own people.

Most people trust their countries, it's like a parent child relationship, and most people do not think their countries would do stuff like this. I found out the hard way, and maybe you did too, but if this has been happening to you for 20 years ago, and the truth is out there, but not really out there. How do you see it changing?

I am not saying I have the answers, but it's not by sitting back and waiting for the truth to just spring up and grow wings.

It's not going to happen. People trip fall over the truth, and pick themselves up, dust themselves off, and forget about it, unless it start happening to them. I think that is why most people ignore this.


Hi kozmo.

"If you've got nothing to hide, you've nothing to fear"

I had nothing to hide. I thought I had nothing to fear, but now I am a government target, who is under 24/7 monitoring and surveillance. So I hope these little ones that sprout this stupidity, can wake up, before it happens to them, and they finally understand how stupid and inane that statement is. You have lot's to fear, and the majority of what people should fear, is a world government that is moving at rapid paces to enslave humanity. By using us to spy, snitch and watch and control each other. Then by adding in chipping, tagging, rif chips, cameras, and mind or intention reading devices. The future is now, and it's very scary, but most people just don't realise it, just don't care, or they are in a state of total
denial.


Hi budski.

Can you give reliable sources for these figures?

Should those reliable figures include the refuges living in other countries, because they can no longer live in their own countries, or do you just want the dead?

Should those figures include people in the concentration camps who might be from Iraq or do you just want the figures for the dead?

Do you want stats on the wounded who are not dead, but wish they were dead? Just wanted to know if you wanted stats on those as well.


Hi Heronumber0.

Anyway, these incidents continued - I was harassed everywhere by gangs of people shouting verbal abuse.

Actually if you are really a target, and not a disinfo agent, then you are part of the new club, that all the cool kids are joining.

Online for the last 5 years, many people have been calling it gang stalking.

After doing 10 months of research to try to find out what was happening to me. I discovered that we have civilian snitches, sorry citizen spies, and along with the government or police, you are most likely under a covert, what's suppose to be a covert investigation.

Your life is probably more like the movie the lives of others, than that other movie you mentioned.

For others who want to find out more, please visit this sites, or visit the gang stalking thread on this board.

www.gangstalkingworld.com...

[edit on 20-5-2007 by Harassment101]

Hi OpLan.

I would quote you, but the whole post was just so well said there is no point. Also if you get too close to the truth, they would just put you under 24/7 monitoring, and destroy your life and reputation, so that by the time you told the truth to anyone, no one would want to listen or care, and if you still tried, they would just get rid of you. Ask all those who have died going after 9/11 truth. The government is not shy.


Hi realyweely,

They can make you have one but they cant make you carry it.

Yes they can, and yes they will. Do you think they are going to spend all this money, so they can have people leaving their cards at home? Do you. Soon it will be mandatory to carry those stupid things and show them upon request.

Lighten up and stop worrying people. If it all gets too much remember we are British, weve thrown out Governments before and chopped off a Kings head. If weve done it once we can do it again.

Yeah, how will the world overthrow a global government where everyone is monitoring and spying on everyone? Where no one trusts anyone enough to even try to organise? Where your every move is watched and noted? Where your coming and goings are monitored? How do you think we will plan and plot for freedom then? I can tell you, as one who is under 24/7 surveillance you will have a very hard time.

Governments were over thrown in the past, because people could still trust each other, our every move was not monitored. How are you going to buy supply's. Rif chips, cash less society, id cards, that let the government know where you are, speed cameras, and oh your fellow citizens, that would sell you out so fast it would make your head spin. In the past, those governments were overthrown, cause people still had freedoms, they could plot and plan, they could get guns, and weapons. How will you or anyone do that, when every move you make is watched. Every word you type on your computer is monitored. You won't even be able to go to the bathroom, without them knowing. So thought I love your don't worry it will all work out, if we are wrong. It will be way too late, when you realise that you are wrong.


Mentally we have a different society than we did then. They were truly educated then, now all they are being taught to do is obey, snitch and say, if you have done nothing wrong, you have nothing to worry about. Repeat, robot, zombie style.


Hi malganis.

Well yes, but that was before the public were 'conditioned' as they say. The public might be a bit of a pushover these days, especially if you tell them the terrorists are coming to get them.

You are too nice. They are mindless, sheeple, who will do what they are told, when they are told, and be chipped and tagged and like it, and even if they don't. No one will care.


Hi greatlakes.

It's all to desensitize the population to the master plan. It all sounds crazy and paranoid, but that doesn't mean it isn't really happening-just look around.

Your post does not sound crazy in the least. A year ago maybe it would have sounded crazy to me, but a year ago I didn't realise that I was being watched and spied on by my country.

I did not understand the bigger picture coming down the line. Kids are getting conditioned at an early age. All it will take is a generation to have us all chipped and tagged and probably liking it, for your protection you understand.

www.informationliberation.com...

I think your post summarised everything every well, and I think you probably were even conservative with all the other goodies they have in store for us. Wither we like it or not, the people of the earth will be subdued, and the sad part is, there are more of us than there are of them. I never understood how whole populations could be enslaved by a few. It's all in the conditioning. They use everyone to control everyone else and most won't see it, till it's too late.

It's all leading up to this global dominance, one world government crap. Using the people to control the people. Along with all the directed energy weapons to torture the people, when we try our lame rebellions. Weapons might I add, that they are testing out in Iraq currently, but no one cares, cause it's not happening to them. Till it is, no one will care, and even then, I am pretty sure we are too apathetic as a people to care, or help ourselves.

www.wired.com...

Well, I come to this as a Brit. Or am I a Scot ? One way or the other I live this side of the pond.

When you're going about your normal day-to-day business you really don't notice these CCTV cameras. But they ARE everywhere. I leave my front door and there's one on the main road. There's three on the council offices I pass, one on the bank and one inside, one at the petrol station (gas station), one on the outside of the local shop (and one inside too). There's three at the railway station ... and hell don't misbehave at the railway station. I was once smoking a cigarette on the platform (the train was late) ... and this huge booming voice came over the loudspeakers asking me, the gentleman on the end of platform 2, to kindly desist from smoking ... oh ! The humiliation !

And the thing is. I live in a small town 20 miles outside the city (Glasgow) ... just a small town. The only trouble we ever have is a punch up at the local pub on the occasional friday night. Nothing major.

When you do arrive in the city centre these cameras are everywhere. In every shop, on every street corner. It's quite unbelievable and shocking.

And hey. Whatever you do don't drive into the city. There's cameras on bridges over the motorway (freeway) ... and so sophisticated they measure your speed, take photographs if you're speeding and automatically send you a speeding fine in the post, they can also zoom in onto your cars licence plate and check a database to see if your car's been stolen. Or if you haven't paid your road tax. And soon they'll be able to tell if your car isn't insured.

And mobile phones (cellphones) too ... do you know the authorities can pin your position down to about 100 feet if you're simply carrying your phone on you ?

And your bank card records every transaction you ever make, cash withdrawals, shop purchases, the time & location. And no doubt they can now tell what books you buy or newspapers you read. And your supermarket loyalty card records every single item you've ever bought.

And soon comes the national ID card. It's voluntary for the first year or two (allegedly). But if you don't voluntarily take them up on their ever so kind offer they'll charge you a fortune when they make it compulsory. They're going to charge you over £100 ($200) if you don't have a card when it becomes compulsory. Just to get your card !! If you don't take them up on it you won't get medical treatment, social security benefits, you'll be denied bank accounts, credit cards, loans, car finance, mortgages. And then they'll fine you and possibly jail you if you don't have one.

All these things have good reason to have been brought in. Largely to prevent crime or to identify criminals. But the crime rates arent reducing. if anything theyre on the rise. And no matter what people say it is true - you cannot get a policeman when you need one. You might happen to see a couple of fat policemen zoom past you in their fancy BMW, with blue lights flashing, on their way to arrest a boy for throwing a cake at a bus ... or for calling a schoolfriend "gay" ... (I didnt make those up either) ... but if your car has been vandalised or house burgled you might as well not even bother phoning them. Because if they come out - IF they come out - all you'll get is a crime number to give to your insurance company. Catch the criminals ? Not a chance.

All this technology and the information it provides has a huge potential to be abused. That's what I'm a bit worried about.

HI Niall197.

You are only a little bit worried, you should be a lot worried. I am really likeing this thread, there have been some quite enlightend responses and I have learnt a lot about how even further gone in some areas we are than I already realised. More so I have learnt once again how accpeting society is of this, and that we all seem to be waiting for someone else to do something, someone else to get the rebellion started.

I don't think that someone else is coming however.

You also had a very good post, and some fine points about those id cards.

Won't be able to trade, purchase, or anything else without one, and then without being chipped, then scanned. It's all coming so quickly, yet so slowly.

Well I must be living in a different country.

The UK can't even get a train to run on time for love nor money.

Nearly every single government computer project undertaken in the past 10 years has been a waste of money, or scrapped.

They couldn't get the Child Support Agency a decent computer system to track absent fathers and it was scrapped, and the benefits computer system was obsolete before it was introduced/

The Home office and Police have openly admitted that their systems can't track illegal immigrants and peadophiles and the NHS National Patient Database is a crock of crap that is sucking in money like theres no tomorrow and guess what - its STILL doesn't work.

The British Government couldn't procure a decent computer system to add one and one together and yet apparently we're all being tagged and tracked and recorded and profiled and.....

Ah, I give up. I'll just get told I'm wrong again, even though I live here.

X-Ray Surveillance Van; X-Ray Van

And today the police in Liverpool announce tests of a pilotless surveillance drone, to hover over the city day and night ...

news.bbc.co.uk...

Ok Harassment101 ... the more I read the more I worry. I'm now more than a little worried.

And Neformore ... I know what you're saying but these things do have the potential to be abused. The abuse of CCTV by its operators already happens, albeit on a small but nevertheless still disturbing level ... a "friend of a friend's friend" I know used to work in a CCTV control room and by all accounts they spend more time looking down girls blouses than looking out for any crimes in the making.

How long are the CCTV recordings kept for ? Who owns them ? To whom can they be passed on ? If I am a victim of a crime do I have the right to receive a copy of the tape ? I like to think i'm an intelligent kinda guy who keeps up to date with politics, current affairs and whatever. But I honestly don't know the answer to these questions.

Theyve had those Xray vans in Dover for a good few years now. They check for contraband and illegal immigrants

I still dont see what all the fuss is about. If you arent doing anything wrong you have nothing to fear from the cameras and its amazing what a magnet can do to an IC chip on an ID card.