Billy Meier UFO Contact Hoax: Discussion

Crakeur/ Nohup/ Bigwhammy,

Let me rephrase my comment.
While your posts here are often a waste of time and space in what concerns a discussion of this theme,
with your patting each other in the back, replying to your own comments, and making jokes just like this was your little playground,
I think that on a personal level, you are not wasting your time, because you are getting paid to create this kind of non-discussion.
I can't really find a better explanation for what you are posting.
It seems believable, that this is a way to prevent the Meier case from being discussed with any seriousness, wich would undoubtedly disturb the status quo.
And no, I am not Michael Horn, neither do I have any financial or other interest in discussing this, other than to try to make things clearer to myself.
Disguise yourselves as spirituality deniers all you like, what you really are here is just... employees.

reply to post by Efebiy


sadly, I am not getting paid for spreading the truth.

the only people I know of that get paid with regards to the meier tall tale are meier and horn. I'm guessing Meier does rather well with is followers. Meier, on the other hand, might not be raking in such braggable profits.

I myself am new to this website, forums, and thread and have been reading alot of it and I come to conclude from my own observations.

From the start it WAS about the photo; people immidiately responded, "Tsk, this is fake, because it looks like it to me. Meier is a joke".
Johnlear and MHorn responded with simple explanations with asked questions. Everything was much settled.
People were saying they were keeping "Open-Minds" and choose to Disbelief in the story and sorts, now it's completely contradicting and a whole different story.
All the non-believers are now attacking the believers, by pretty much mentioning they are morons, or laughable characters for "believing such nonsense". The non-believers here are contradicting their "Open-Minded" statements by completely being just enforcing their "Non-Belief" and saying it's all a fake, fraud, and Hoax because of a couple of pictures and information from the internet.
And to ban MHorn because he's defending his "Belief" while being attacked by a group of non-believers; is pretty cultish in my opinion, especially for the moderators to be part of the main non-believers.
And either side has no Absolute proof to anything. All MHorn is doing basing his info off the websites(possible his?) There's no proof that all this info is true; so to believe it is up to the individual. But then again all these "Debunkers" websites claiming to prove the case is indeed a hoax also have no proof.
For an example; One website shows the supposed book and Painting of where Meier got his Dinosaur photo from. For all we know this guy is lying; could of possibly got this painting AFTER Billy's picture, by copying Billy's picture and turning it into a painting and claiming its from before that time.
As for the "Models". There's information on the sites(Believing is up to you) That claims that the Models were indeed tested to compare to the real thing. And you can obviously tell the difference, as a well-intellected human being.
For the Asket and Nera photos. There's actually 2 of them. The supposed Real, and the Fake one; demonstrating the girls from the Dean Martin show. There's actually a comparison and you can obviously see the difference. Denying that fact is basically admitting to delusion.

Though in all from either side, Non-Believers and Believers; none of it is Absolute Truth, for there isn't enough basis proof to factuate either side. This argument and constant "bullying" of other members with their opinions and beliefs is by far nonsense; and I believe the moderators should be more into that then supporting it.
And I remember the topic being about the RAY GUN PHOTOS, not, who can Laugh harder at MHorn's defense? Because they disbelieve?

[edit on 16-4-2008 by RuhigSein]

Originally posted by RuhigSein
And to ban MHorn because he's defending his "Belief" while being attacked by a group of non-believers; is pretty cultish in my opinion, especially for the moderators to be part of the main non-believers.

Actually, Michael Horn was banned for not complying with the Terms and Conditions of the site. He was allowed back several times and, in the end, he always wound up attacking members with his posts. With every new incarnation, he would spew the same lame responses (MIB alterations etc) and when those pathetic attempts to explain the many discrepancies fell short, he'd lose his cool, verbally abuse whichever member was raising these questions and that would result in his banning. If you think the staff bans people for their beliefs, allow me to direct you to the many holocaust denial threads, the jews are evil threads etc. Nobody gets banned for their beliefs here, they get banned for not following the simple set of rules they agreed to follow when they signed up.

Originally posted by RuhigSein

For an example; One website shows the supposed book and Painting of where Meier got his Dinosaur photo from. For all we know this guy is lying; could of possibly got this painting AFTER Billy's picture, by copying Billy's picture and turning it into a painting and claiming its from before that time.
As for the "Models". There's information on the sites(Believing is up to you) That claims that the Models were indeed tested to compare to the real thing. And you can obviously tell the difference, as a well-intellected human being.
For the Asket and Nera photos. There's actually 2 of them. The supposed Real, and the Fake one; demonstrating the girls from the Dean Martin show. There's actually a comparison and you can obviously see the difference. Denying that fact is basically admitting to delusion.

The problem with this is that every photo that has since been debunked, found to be lifted from other materials, shown to contain objects from earth life etc, was, originally, deemed to be the real deal. Meier put them out there and people saw them and believed and then, after some research into them, these oddities (Dean Martin, Sears catalogue, dino book, toy gun, garbage can lid, carpet tacks on the ufos etc) were noticed and pointed out. Then, after declaring the images to all be 100% real, the Meier camp changed their position and said the photos were doctored by the MIB.

Let me repeat that so it is crystal clear. These images were deemed 100% genuine, the real deal. Then, after being debunked they were supposedly altered by MIB.

Let me ask a simple question. If they were altered by the Men In Black, why would Meier put them out there as real? If he knew they weren't real, why would he say they were and then change his mind?

Answer? anyone....anyone....beuhler....

Well I'll say it like this; It doesn't matter where the source is coming from. There's no complete Proof of any of these claims. Websites can post anything, doesn't mean it's true.
There's no "Absolute Truth" to any side of this discussion(or argument).
And the discussion was supposed to be about the Ray Guns' Photos and it shifted off to wonderland to allegedly bullying other members.

We don't know for sure if Billy is telling the truth or not, because there's no complete proof of any basis or claims being brought up. Only us as Human Beings can assume of what we want to be true, what we hope, and what we think we know.

Concerning Billy, there is a MOUNTAIN of evidence, verifiable by just about anyone, that points to the fact that he is a hoaxer. I would imagine, with as much content surrounding the billy stuff, that there would be as much, if not more evidence supporting the fact that it was true considering all the "contact" he has had with "aliens" over the years.

Anyone, and I mean ANYONE, who entertains this type of utter rubbish is doing serious harm to Ufology. If you can't understand why I just said that, your a part of the problem. Sit down, shut up and let those with common sense, reason and logic guide this subject into the light of the mainstream where the beam of truth will illuminate the masses, lol.

Even if you think this might be true, or want it to be, or honestly lost your mind and 100% believe it to be...you must understand in order for you to get verifiable recognition things like this need to be tempered for the mainstream. Swallow your (ignorant) pride and let it go. Support things that will propel Ufology into the mainstream light, even if you don't agree with them, and if things like this have any verifiable substance to them they will not be able to escape the ever watchful eye of the networks ratings game and major internet news outlets and blogs. Again, if you don't understand what I am talking about, then your the reason Ufology is looked at by most people as foolish. Thanks for making those of of us with common sense, reason and logic, who are interested in Ufology, look like utter fools.

reply to post by RuhigSein


no, we can't know for sure but common sense and logic tell us that, when a man shows you a picture of an alien (or a ship or a dinosaur) and he tells you it is authentic, and you say you found that same image somewhere else and the man then says "they doctored my photo," this man is covering up for a lie.

did he never look at the photo? did he take the picture so he could show the whole world that aliens are here and never look at the picture? how'd he know that the picture he had was the best one to show the world? did he take one picture, get the film developed and then figure that he didn't need to look at the one picture because he only took one picture?

seriously, how all of these Meier followers can overlook the basic error here is frightening.

oh, and by the way, after the toy gun meier used to make his ray gun photos was discovered (by one of our members), Horn himself said something to the effect of the toy maker was using alien technology to make the toy guns. The toy company and the garbage can manufacturing company are using alien technology to make toy guns and garbage cans from alien weaponry and space craft and our government is still working with plain old airplanes and bullet firing guns? there's a frightening concept.

reply to post by IgnoreTheFacts


You claim to be a person with common sense? Everything in your post sounds utterly ignorant.
I realise that, since you don’t believe in the case, you want to discredit it publically, you want to “bring the beam of truth” into the mainstream and to expurgate ufology from “Billy” once and for all. Then, you can feed the public with your own information.
One thing you have to admit, though. Whether you consider Billy’s information as a fictional "tale", or as a factual one, you have to realise that the “tale” has a much broader meaning and implications than just the compartimentalized field of “Ufology”. It may even be consistent with what you would expect to happen if contacts between human beings from Earth and from other galaxies actually took place and had taken place throughout Earth’s history.
I would say that there is a MOUNTAIN of evidence that points to the veracity of the case, and a few skeptic’s baits (things wich may appear fraudulent), wich are not even conclusive by themselves. To say that there is a mountain of evidence that points that Billy is a hoaxer is a complete INVERSION of the reality.

Originally posted by Efebiy
To say that there is a mountain of evidence that points that Billy is a hoaxer is a complete INVERSION of the reality.

Wow. Just...wow. I don't even know why reason, logic, and common sense are attempted in cases like this. I think I'll start promoting obtuse as a verb......as in "IgnoreTheFacts has been obtused."

Crakeur, like I said. There's no Absolute Truth on either side, so it doesn't matter. It looks to me, then rather Discuss the topic, you're going out in attempts to try to "Prove" its a hoax. When you certainly just can't.

Efebiy, you can't convince a group of non-believers who are, looking from my POV are trying to prove it's a Hoax. You can believe something, doesn't make it Absolute Truth. The fact is; Billy Meier's story is indeed interesting, but too many people are Skeptical from what they're being told, what they view as reality, and what they think they want to know.
It's either you Believe it, or you Don't.

I'd also like to Point out to other members; you can't immidately judge something and say its a hoax from your vision and perspective of reality. Claiming to be open-minded but then completely doubting it and saying it's just nothing more then a hoax, with limited evidence is more like saying, "I don't want this to be true, because of something stored in my own mind".


[edit on 16-4-2008 by RuhigSein]

Originally posted by Crakeur
Actually, Michael Horn was banned for not complying with the Terms and Conditions of the site. He was allowed back several times and, in the end, he always wound up attacking members with his posts. With every new incarnation, he would spew the same lame responses (MIB alterations etc) and when those pathetic attempts to explain the many discrepancies fell short, he'd lose his cool, verbally abuse whichever member was raising these questions and that would result in his banning.

I must agree with RuhigSein here. I have read this forum from the beggining and in the last posts by Michael, there was indeed nothing that would justify his expulsion. In the ones before that, he may have become somewhat "involved", but so did his opponents. In the end, it was like Crakeur is putting in words here: he was expelled because his posts were labeled as "lame responses" and "pathetic attempts" by the moderator.

I don't remember having read in the Terms and Conditions that you can only post as long as your views don't disagree with the ones of the moderators. Still, I would ask: how many posts can a person open to the veracity of Billy's contacts post before being expelled?

Originally posted by Efebiy

Originally posted by Crakeur
Actually, Michael Horn was banned for not complying with the Terms and Conditions of the site. He was allowed back several times and, in the end, he always wound up attacking members with his posts. With every new incarnation, he would spew the same lame responses (MIB alterations etc) and when those pathetic attempts to explain the many discrepancies fell short, he'd lose his cool, verbally abuse whichever member was raising these questions and that would result in his banning.

I must agree with RuhigSein here. I have read this forum from the beggining and in the last posts by Michael, there was indeed nothing that would justify his expulsion. In the ones before that, he may have become somewhat "involved", but so did his opponents. In the end, it was like Crakeur is putting in words here: he was expelled because his posts were labeled as "lame responses" and "pathetic attempts" by the moderator.

I don't remember having read in the Terms and Conditions that you can only post as long as your views don't disagree with the ones of the moderators. Still, I would ask: how many posts can a person open to the veracity of Billy's contacts post before being expelled?

You conveniently left the following part of my quote out:
If you think the staff bans people for their beliefs, allow me to direct you to the many holocaust denial threads, the jews are evil threads etc. Nobody gets banned for their beliefs here, they get banned for not following the simple set of rules they agreed to follow when they signed up.


Let me repeat, Mr. Horn, you were banned for your behavior towards members, not towards your beliefs. The mere fact that the owners of this site let you back, repeatedly, to try and tell your side of this story should be proof enough that ATS is an open forum for the discussion of almost all topics, allowing everyone their chance to speak. Just about the only thing you, I mean Mr. Horn, did do that was in compliance with the T&C was not promote his own site for the purpose of selling Meier stuff. Your, I mean Mr. Horn's behavior towards other members was his downfall. Not his belief in Meier and his stories. If the staff had the ability to ban everyone we didn't agree with, we'd have a pretty quiet board as members would fear that banning and avoid posting. With close to 4,000 posts a day, covering a variety of topics, I'd say we're somewhat open in what we allow on these boards. To further prove my point, neither of you have been banned for believing this stuff. Now, so long as you don't melt down and start calling anyone names, you will be able to stay this time.

reply to post by Crakeur


Let's see... so, you claim that me, Michael Horn, and whoever else defends the study of Meier's materials or the analysis of the evidence provided by him are all the same person.
You say this, in response to my claim that Crakeur, IgnoreTheFacts, MrPenny and others are just different identities used by the same guy (a paid shill from the CIA).
So, this thread is nothing but a theatre, played by nothing more than two persons?

Ok, here is the truth:

There is only one person.
I am Crakeur and Mr Penny, among others.
I am posting in response to myself.
I am creating all this to make it appear like there are people who want to defame Billy Meier.
I realise that this will ultimately strenghten his credibility.
He paid me to do it.
Yes, Billy Meier himself gave me swiss francs to stage this forum.

Originally posted by Efebiy
You say this, in response to my claim that Crakeur, IgnoreTheFacts, MrPenny and others are just different identities used by the same guy (a paid shill from the CIA).

Please, don't lump me in with the bean counter.

And here I've been carefully crafting my own "voice" on these forums. Damn, what a waste of sarcasm, wit, and insight.

Billy's contact was real, but what happened outside that happening made it unreal. No different then what happens in Politics too many people involved make it into a mockery. It's an excellent way to shut down a program, run it from someones elses viewpoint.

This assasination attempt on 'his character' is a normal ploy to get rid of evidence. Then what do you do run a dismanteling campaign against yourself. To write yourself off. Somebody got to him, with all the big stars going to visit him, you can believe that, nothing under his name is really going on. Just the UFOLOGY FIELD trying to keep tabs of debts not paid.

[edit on 16-4-2008 by menguard]

Goodness. I used to think people like Stanton Friedman were detrimental to serious UFOlogy.

Compared to Michael Horn and his followers, he might as well be Jesus.

reply to post by Efebiy


we're supposed to be paid by the CIA? ok, where's my cheese? Perhaps I'd make more money working for you and Billy. Of course then I'd have to give back that percentage for the right to be a part of your "religion" but hey, if I'm still on the plus side of the equation it ain't all bad. Well, there is the downside of feeling somewhat filthy for lying to people about things like carpet tacks, toy guns and dean martin show actresses but, for a buck, I might not feel quite as bad.


Mr. Penny, your wit and sarcasm is rather impressive but you have a long ways to go before you can be deemed Crakeur level.

Seriously, you guys. 67 pages is enough. I was enjoying this thread until some of the Mods got in the name calling business and strayed away from simple presentation of facts. Its out of line and unprofessional. Keeping the emotion out of it and sticking to the facts is a great way to preserve credibility. Now everyone on both sides looks foolish.

[edit on 17-4-2008 by VisionQuest]

Originally posted by Crakeur
you have a long ways to go before you can be deemed Crakeur level.

The ATS cornerstones of civility and decorum prevents me from unleashing my all out wit-fu and sarcasm-fu on the unenlightened masses.

U2Us however........

reply to post by VisionQuest


That's what I been saying the whole time. And I don't think either side realizes it.
In all honesty neither side is right or wrong. Because none of it is "Absolute Truth".
Either you Believe it, or you don't. Don't go on a ranting campaign trying to prove it being a hoax.
And to the others, don't go on a ranting campaign trying to prove its true. There isn't enough evidence to support either side, other then utter assumptions, and speculations.