Billy Meier UFO Contact Hoax: Discussion

-sigh-

Alien #1 from the Dean Martin show. BUSTED!

Alien #2 from the Sears Catalog. BUSTED!

Ray gun made of extruded plastic toy parts. Found the nozzle. BUSTED!

Dinosaur lifted from a bigger painting. Found the painting. BUSTED!

UFOs through windows hung by string. You can see the string. BUSTED!

Wedding Cake made from grain can lid. Found the lid. BUSTED!

Smoking gun horizontal line found in blue spectrum of pic. BUSTED!

UFO mounts found in trees. BUSTED!

Perspective focus photo analysis shows small size of models. BUSTED!

Found models in the garage. BUSTED!

Metal samples 'disappeared.' BUSTED!

Owners say there never was a tree in the field. BUSTED!

Expert conveniently dead. BUSTED!

Photo shop says they were asked to add reflection. BUSTED!

Wife says they were models. BUSTED!

Written material is INSANE!

Over and over and over and over again this stuff is proven fake. It's over. It's done. It's laughable. In the face of all this the Meier cult believers actually have the gall to come out with a straight face and say, "It's real!" Right. For you half dozen people on this thread you go right ahead and keep believing your fantasies. The rest of the world, both interested and not, think you belong in a padded cell at best, and a non-padded one for fraud at worst. It's embarrassing to see you get up again and again and spout. Just in case you don't know, no one is reading through the posts any more. Another 4,000 character nonsense post. They are largely unread. You have no expertise. It has become a three ring circus, and you are the entertainment.

Do you understand that? It's not about arguing points with you. It's not about yet more evidence. There is enough already. You lost. You failed the class. You get an "F" There is no appeal. You're bankrupt, in the red, a negative balance. You're busted. It's about you being entertainment. You are the life of the party, it's true, by being the butt of the joke. Go back to painting fingernails.

Originally posted by Michael12
The point is that anyone - like Jeffie - who claims that Meier used model UFOs and miniature trees and that they can prove and duplicate it is obligated to do so...if they value their reputation.

Michael12, why do you persist in using false logic? Seriously, have you ever studied university level logic or mathematics? I doubt it, as you couldn't use trigonomtery to calculate the projected height of the 'sleeve' for the WCUFO, caused through parralax error.

Many of the pictures have been to shown to be false. You or Meier won't submit the original negatives of the pictures for independent analysis.

You are using false logic to try and place the burden of proof against other people to construct the fakes. That's not how it works, mate. All that is required to debunk the Meier pictures is to perform a thorough analysis on them and the negatives to spot the inconsistencies. We have even found the crumbs that have dropped away from the wedding cake.

No one, reapeat - NO ONE has to even try and recreate the fakes, they only have to debunk them as being fake.

if someone were to recreate one image, right down to the broken screw or tack or whatever, would that mean that the recreated image was also a real ufo?

grow up and amount to something.

Michael's posts, always a bit muddled and inept (though he's a handsome guy. I wouldn't want to be accused of attacking him personally. Besides, we're both bald. Gotta love us!) are increasingly of the "non denial denial" variety. If you can't impress people with the BS, then dazzle them with complaints of being discriminated against and picked upon. Appeal to the moderators to be "fair" and stop personal attacks against him, then perform as the above quote indicates.

Game over. Michael as entertainment is getting old also.

[edit on 9-5-2007 by schuyler]

Originally posted by Michael12
Who among the petty little losers has... blah blah blah.

At least this petty little loser (me) can understand parralax error and use mathematics to determine that the height of the sleeve in the WCUFO has not been raised between the two pictures. That was all guesswork on your part, backed up with no trigonometric calculations to determine the change in viewing angle, which could then model the shear effect on the sleeve. Measuring pixels from a screen with a tape measure, like you did, does not qualify as mathematical proof that the sleeve has been raised.

If you want to sling around general insults by sweeping people in the 'petty little loser' category, then you should be aware that you are violating the T&Cs of thise website. Never once did I attack your character, Michael12. You failed to properly justify your reasons to think that the sleeve was longer and now you choose to broadly group me as a 'petty little loser'. Interesting.

Originally posted by Michael12
Or who among the petty little losers have been invited by a consultant to Princess Diana to train business execs and government leaders in Europe?

I have no idea. However, I am certain it's not someone who tosses blanket insults like "petty little losers".


If I could please redirect your attention to this:

Originally posted by Michael12
Regarding Meier simply "believing" his own story, I guess the problem is that there are other "believers" too...like JPL, NASA and Science magazine.

Please grace us with recent documentation from these sources that indicate they officially support the story of Billy Meier. If you cannot, then we will add this to the long list of your documented deceptions here and elsewhere.

Michael, your accomplishments are impressive. You can beat my arse with your martial arts, beat my wallet with the cost of getting my wife and my daughter some nail art, you can beat my cool connection to princess di (I stayed in a hotel room she frequented) but you CANNOT ANSWER MY QUESTION

so, allow myself to quote myself

Originally posted by Crakeur
Why won't you and/or Meier allow the so called documentary evidence, the metal, the negatives etc be tested by an independent, unrelated third party?

its a sad day indeed when a man needs to pump up his own accomplishments to a group of internet geeks wearing foil hats and living in their mother's basement, to prove he's the better man. Let me say this now, so that it doesn't come up later. Mine is small. Real small. so small that small is probably a compliment so, if you were getting ready to go that route of measuring up next, save it. you win.

Originally posted by Michael12
As I know that you must know, he's only digging himself in deeper and deeper to a reputation busting, credibility destroying

Thats awesome advice, maybe you should taken it....sadly its to late Horn.



The jigs up.



[edit on 9-5-2007 by helium3]

Originally posted by Michael12
and accidentally revealed the elephant in the room, i.e. his cultivation of miniature trees -

The elephant in the room....is miniature trees......

Seriously, that is funny.......

who among you is responsible for a world wide trend, spanning more than 40 years, and which has generated millions of dollars?

And there you have it. I guess you simply couldn't resist whoring out your credibility and reputation, and declaring yourself a representative for a phenomena and cult that takes advantage of those looking for some answers; for some kind of insight and comfort. Simply for a "piece of the action".

Or who among the petty little losers have been invited by a consultant to Princess Diana to train business execs and government leaders in Europe?

What does this have to do with Meier photographs? I can believe Diana, though beloved by all, not exactly the sharpest knife in the drawer, would be interested in fingernail painting, but I'm distressed, surprised, and revolted that business execs and government leaders in Europe would indulge in such a practice. I think the EU should launch an investigation immediately, appoint a bureau and directorate complete with corner office, and STUDY this issue in depth!

[edit on 9-5-2007 by schuyler]

[edit on 9-5-2007 by schuyler]

Originally posted by Michael12
So you can ban me or not but...your credibility, integrity and word are demonstrably not worth anything...unless it's to try to intimidate me, which is truly hopeless.

Yep. I think most people here get the impression they are talking to a reinforced concrete wall. (Figuratively ) Not listening to other people, not giving them feedback on the direct issues they forward is something some would say a mental disorder.

Grow up and amount to something.

Bit disrespectful, don't you think?

Since you keep masquerading this as a "question", you will get an answer.

First, the evidence was not only "allowed" to be tested, it was provided for testing. That you've arrived a little late on the scene is not my problem.

You are obviously unaware of the documentation that establishes the dates, authenticity, etc. of lots of Meier's information. It has already been explained to you where it can be found. If you want to know more - and you really should before you write accusatory nonsense or assume that you (or the people here) know what they're talking about - do what I did...go find the information through research and make your opinion an educated one, one that's actually your own based on something factual.

Next, your question is simply inaccurate, as NONE of the critical testing was done by related parties. The investigators sought out, and were present for much of the testing, obviously.

These are some of the INDEPENDENT parties and some of the INDEPENDENT facilities involved:

Sound Engineers:

Steve Ambrose
Rick Coupland
Peter Gimer
Howard Ilson
Nils Rognerud
Robin L. Shellman
Steve Singer
Steven Williams

Photographic & Film Experts:

Jim Dilettoso
Eric Eliason
Dr. Michael Malin
Nippon TV
Robert Post

Special Effects Expert:

Wally Gentleman, Canadian Film Board

Metal Analysis:

Marcel Vogel
Dr. Walter Walker

Physicist:

Dr. David Froning

• JPL
• USGS
• NASA
• COMTAL
• Nippon TV
• Village Labs
• INTERREPO
• Micor Electric
• Design Technology
• McDonnell Douglas
• Excalibur Sound Studios
• Naval Undersea Sound Center
• Eidgenossich Materialprufungs und Versuchsanstalt

Forestry Experts:

Prof. J.D. Brodie
Prof. D. Hanley
Prof. E.M. Hansen
Richard. K. Hermann
Prof. Holdenrieder
Dr. Edward C. Jensen

Feel better?

Originally posted by Michael12

Metal Analysis:

Marcel Vogel

Vogel was not a metallurgist, he was a chemist for crying out loud!!. So who don't you offer the "alien metal" to REAL metallurgists for independent testing ?, after all if Vogel finding where correct what do you have to loose other then proving 98% ATS and the UFOlogy community wrong ?.

Once again, "Since you keep masquerading this as a 'question', you will get an answer."

Watch/read Vogel's analysis and show us where it's flawed. You are a - metallurgist, right?

Originally posted by Michael12
Once again, "Since you keep masquerading this as a 'question', you will get an answer."

Watch/read Vogel's analysis and show us where it's flawed. You are a - metallurgist, right?

Can you stop answering questions with question its just a blatantly obvious diversion tactic you have mastered. Now read these word NICE AND SLOW, if Vogel's analysis was flawed is totally irrelevant. A second analysis will just prove the same out come and just bolster your claims.

PS: I have a mate going to vist Billy Meier in the US winter and have given him a long list of question about yourself. Can you speak fluent German ?

ENOUGH!

Michael, your hat has been handed to you by the astute Membership at AboveTopSecret.com take it and leave while you still have a shred (albeit a tiny one) of "street cred" left.

The largest discussion site, in these topics, on the internet's community has spoken and they REJECT your "position" your double speak and you ridiculous condescension.

Heck, even those have some faith that the BM case has some potential truth to it have wondered if you are a "plant" sent in to discredit the case! (I can't imagine a worse outcome for a promoter)

Seriously, if you hope to promote this case, run now and REGROUP. Try again when morals, truth and GENUINE COURTESY are worth MORE than the few dollars you might gain from a DVD sale. (yep, I totally understand the split between distributor and copyright holder)

While admittedly I have not invented anything nearly as cool as "finger nail art", I am pretty well versed in how to build a huge presence on the internet. The BIGGEST ingredient to that success however is to NEVER attempt to pass BS off as fact to the people who come to your site.

The second biggest factor is to NEVER PREACH, intelligent people don't need preaching they need DATA.

It's ALL ABOUT the DATA Michael and you have FAILED miserably in answering why you CAN'T deliver the goods to disinterested third parties of un impeachable credentials.

FWIW...

Oh and you have been BANNED, REJECTED and forthwith labeled "Persona Non Gratis" here, due to your utter lack of respect for this forum's civility code, it's Members and experts (REAL, GLOBALLY RECOGNIZED EXPERTS) and your total disregard of the owner's requests that you follow the rules of engagement here.

That PLUS the fact you are promoting a hoax which we simply DON'T TOLERATE AT ALL.

so be it....

Springer...

[edit on 5-10-2007 by Springer]

At this point I have enough belief that fellow ATS'ers see through Horn like a pane of glass, but just as a note to the newcomers: Many of the "independent experts" Horn has listed never saw original data.

-Malin has communicated that he never saw original pictures, but a digital representation (perhaps the one that Ken Dinwiddie was instructed to alter?). It also relayed that he couldn't tell if they were fake or not from the digital representations. It becomes very clear he didn't do any "analysis" on the photos at all. He said that his comments were taken out of context (shocker!).
His last words to me were:
"It really doesn't matter whether they're real or not. If they are real, the occupants don't want to have any substantive contact with us, and certainly they're not offering me a lift to Mars 8^). So screw them! If they're not real, who cares if some nut in Switzerland can make good fakes?"

Doesn't sound like a glowing review to me, however Horn puts forth Mr. Malin all the time as an expert who's given the Meier case the "okie doke". Simply untrue.

Robert Post of JPL had this to say:
Post acknowledges he was fascinated by the images, but was unable to perform a scientific analysis for two reasons: First, he isn't a photo analyst but rather the operator of a photo processing lab ("like you take your film to K-Mart", he said); and second, the pictures weren't originals but rather copies of originals - perhaps even copies of copies of copies. Such multiple copying tends to obscure delicate details, making it hard to detect evidence of fraud - e.g., threads supporting hubcaps.

In addition, when Post examined some images with a magnifying glass, he
realized "a lot of the pictures weren't really photographs at all - they were lithographs," or high-resolution ink prints made from photos - and, hence, were worthless for purposes of analysis. Furthermore, the photos were " a lot fuzzier than the stuff on the lithographs, and I thought that was a little strange." For that and other reasons, Post began to think, "`Nuts, maybe this guy is just a con man.' That's not the kind of guy I want to have anything to do with."

Not exactly a glowing review from Post either. Michael admitted on this board when caught, selectively leaving out Post's full commentary.

See a pattern yet?

Yet again Horn bets on people not checking this stuff out, and relies on everyone taking his word on it.

As I posted before, I had an independent sound engineer at one of the biggest global authorities and training facilities of sound engineers listen to the sound, and he concluded as I did, that it's a standard tape delay with a little reverb...all standard stuff available at the time.

So ask yourself this question: why couldn't sound engineers at the time conclude this as well? Don't bet that they didn't.

I found one of the experts listed a Mr. Nils Rognerud in communications with him to be a believer in the case:
"I want to believe that Bully Meier is telling the truth. The messages that
he has received seem to be from someone with much wisdom."

He's listed as a sound engineer, yet had no knowledge of a very common effect done with common tape delay guitar pedals and feedback:
"I have never tried the feedback technique you mention, so I can not confirm or deny the possibilities with this sound technique."

I found that exceedingly odd, as Justin Spence a sound engineer and course coordinator at SAE immediately recognized it just as I did. I've played guitar since age 9, and this sound was often heard during band rehearsals while the delay pedal was on and feeding back due to high volume.

It seems odd to me that Rognerud would have no idea of this kind of sound, but his stance of wanting it to be true might have something to do with it. That's just my opinion in speaking with him in an email exchange.

I can only speak to listed experts with whom I've communicated with, but I know of others who have checked out Horn's expert statements, and found them to be sorely lacking. Many didn't even want to acknowledge it and said they were sick of getting calls about it. Clearly if their statements were what Horn claims, they'd have no issue discussing it.

All the ones I have come in communication with though, have said they were misquoted and their words misrepresented.

The other one wants it to be true. And that's not exactly objective.

Some of the corporations and companies listed don't even have any record of examining the films, or photos, nor being involved at all. I called McDonnell Douglas, and the representative I talked to laughed at the company being mentioned in a UFO case. "Absolutely ridiculous" I believe were his exact words.

Michael claims to be a "researcher" on the case, yet hasn't bothered to check these things out...or he has and got the same answers I did, he just doesn't want to tell anyone else. I don't believe for one second that he's researched anything, but he's certainly spoon fed himself the Meier doctrine, and he regurgitates it on demand or necessity.

Hence the venomous name calling and attacking he does when you *do* find out the truth and bring it out for all to see.

One of the reasons I quit anything to do with showing more on the case was due in large part to futility.

You cannot win. There's always an lame excuse, or youre just a "liar" or "incompetant". It becomes simply not worth it.

It's literally become a cartoon of itself along with Horn.

[edit on 10-5-2007 by jritzmann]

Originally posted by jritzmann

I've played guitar since age 9.

Hmmmm. The truth comes out.

As much as i hate to admit it i'm gonna personally miss the little angry guy's rantings.

Originally posted by johnlear
Originally posted by jritzmann

I've played guitar since age 9.

Hmmmm. The truth comes out.

Yeah, astounding.

Btw, the way I wrote the post makes it sound as if I was playing in bands at age 9, which of course wasnt the case. Just noting I've been familiar with this kind of equipment since I was a kid.

Originally posted by helium3
As much as i hate to admit it i'm gonna personally miss the little angry guy's rantings.

It'll pass.

[edit on 10-5-2007 by jritzmann]