Billy Meier UFO Contact Hoax: Discussion

The "I Want To See The Negatives!" Argument

Translation: ...because I can't duplicate Meier's photos and I want to see how he did it.

Let's deal with this diversionary tactic about demanding to see the negatives. If Meier used models and miniature trees, as JR has been screaming for over 1 1/2 years, what's the big deal about the negatives? After all, when JR said that he could prove that Meier used models and that he would duplicate his photos, film and video, it was then up to JR to perform, not Meier.

Is he now saying that the negatives will reveal something that will explain why he couldn't duplicate Meier's evidence, will they show strings or overlays? Okay, Jeffie, we know you used a suspension line, fine, so why not use an overlay, etc. and maybe then you'll show us your UFO/model tree photo that proves your claim? Go for it.

The point is that anyone - like Jeffie - who claims that Meier used model UFOs and miniature trees and that they can prove and duplicate it is obligated to do so...if they value their reputation.

And just what reputation is now at stake? Is it really so bad that someone can't duplicate and show a hoax where there is none? Or is it far worse that they remain defiant, belligerent and in denial, blustering their way around, digging themselves in even deeper - kind of like the way the U.S. is doing in Iraq - and that they don't have the honesty, integrity and humility to just say, "Hey, I was wrong. Cool. What can I learn here?"

Who do we respect more, the bully who won't admit when he's wrong...or the guy who says, "Hey, sorry, I guess I was mistaken."?

For what it's worth, it was proven to the satisfaction of the original investigators in their 8-year long investigation - and then again by Gary Kinder in his own independent investigation - that Meier never possessed the equipment, facility, finances or knowledge to do photo manipulations. Just like he never made or possessed models for his evidence, which would have included him having THREE and FOUR models to use in some of his films and photos.

Here's what none of you want to think about or understand. When JR started to make his claims regarding Meier using miniature trees and models, he felt VERY confident that he was going to reveal the "hoax" because, as a miniature tree cultivator, he just knew that he could set up the photos to prove it. Now he didn't tell anyone else that he cultivated miniature trees, it was going to be part of the surprise, the glorious debunking of the "Meier hoax".

But when he realized that he absolutely, positively couldn't make anything near to a credible photo of his model UFO and a miniature tree, he kept quite about his (14 years of) experience with the trees. Instead, he made loud noises about how his photos of a cute little model UFO on a string, loosely simulating Meier's DISTANCE shots, showed how Meier did it, etc. He continues to refuse to post one side-by-side shot comparable to any of the many of the UFO/tree shots that Meier took, including the FILM of the UFO circling - and moving the top of - a large tree.

But - because the truth has a funny way of coming out when it needs to - Jeffie himself let slip the fact that he cultivated the miniature trees and drew the, very well deserved, criticism down upon him. And, like the macho posturing of the U.S. in Iraq, no amount of cocky, arrogant and unethical behavior is going to win the "war".

To even imply that Meier is SO gifted in photo/negative manipulation as to stump a contemporary, high-tech photo expert like Jeffie (and this goes for the rather overly self-inflated and equally failed David Biedney) is to not only give a back-handed compliment to Meier, it humiliates and self-indicts the accuser as an incompetent. And it doesn't explain away the UFOs! In fact, it puts even greater focus on then having to get really great models and produce the photos, films and video...THAT RITZMANN HIMSELF WAS SCREAMING THAT HE COULD AND WOULD DO.

So for those of you who say, "Duplicating the photos wouldn't prove anything" you should remember that Jeffie himself was the one who made the claims that it would and that he could. Now he wants to make it about the negatives - or anything else. But, at least until the film comes out, there's still time for him and others to calm down, take a breath and become sensible.

Wouldn't it be better that we all actually had a good LAUGH about this, that when the reality sunk in that "it ain't no hoax" EVERYONE'S efforts to prove it was could be regarded as a necessary part of the discovery process, that there's no shame in having given one's best shot as part of the loyal opposition? Don't we all have lots of things to learn from the whole, decades' long process?

That's the olive branch being held out because this IS something for all humanity to learn from. It's not the "product" or "ammunition" of a few parties, ether for profit or to humiliate anybody. What's at stake here is, in my opinion, perhaps the last chance for humanity to grasp and use one of the main keys to our future survival and that should put us all on the same side, working towards the same purpose.

Originally posted by selfless
What is your opinion on the ray gun, do you think it's real or fake?

I've never felt any of the Billy Meier informaiton and photos were anything other than fabrications.

Now, this does not eliminate the possibility that Billy Meier created his material to support a story he genuinely believed. This goes down a path best reserved for those trained in psychology.

And being involved in "conspiracies" and "UFOlogy" for such a long time, I understand the strong desire many have to believe a story such as this. Which, unfortunately, makes it easy for such a story to be told and sold.


[edit on 9-4-2007 bu SkepticOverlord]

Originally posted by Michael12
Wouldn't it be better that we all actually had a good LAUGH about this,

Earth to Mikey.......I'm pretty sure a bunch of us already find this hilarious. I know I do.

that when the reality sunk in that "it ain't no hoax" EVERYONE'S efforts to prove it was could be regarded as a necessary part of the discovery process,

These are no longer "efforts to prove it". Its done. Far too many of the photos offered are shown to be comically false; dinosaurs!. The bald fact of the matter is, you have a financial stake in keeping the fantasy alive, and the majority of the membership of this extremely popular site have judged the evidence and found it farcical.

I followed your last attempt at jousting with J. Ritzmann and frankly, you're not doing any better in this attempt. You probably should have taken a clue from the opening post's lack of gravitas and not risked further damage to your rep and cred.

Don't we all have lots of things to learn from the whole, decades' long process?

Yes. P.T. Barnum was amazingly perceptive.

I was just kidding about my real name last time. Its actually Icelandic.

Originally posted by Michael12
Wouldn't it be better that we all actually had a good LAUGH about this, that when the reality sunk in that "it ain't no hoax" EVERYONE'S efforts to prove it was could be regarded as a necessary part of the discovery process, that there's no shame in having given one's best shot as part of the loyal opposition? Don't we all have lots of things to learn from the whole, decades' long process?

oh, there's a lot of laughing going on all right.

Sadly, I think the only things to be learned by all of this are that there's a sucker born every minute, never throw good money after bad and sometimes money over morals is not the way to go.

Thanks for your thoughts, SkepticOverlord.

Dallas

You know what I find funny about all this? Why do so many continue to get in this constant back and forth with Michael? If it is such a glaring hoax, then it should be obvious enough to stand on it's own without beating a dead horse. We get the point!!! What are you trying to save the believers from....themselves?? Thanks, but I don't need to be saved by anyone but the Man upstairs.

So some people get sucked in.......who cares? I personally believe Billy was set-up and framed. I believe the attempts on his life were real. Honestly, what Michael says doesn't sway me one way or the other, partly because of the fact that he never gives a direct answer. Every answer is long-winded, vague, and metaphorical. It's like getting an answer from Confucius for cryin' out loud. I go with my gut based on some of the evidence, the damaging evidence I believe was fabricated and planted.

Peace

What amazes me Dr Love, is you have so much knowledge on subjects I'v e had the privilege to have you comment on. Yet, seems to me your never around enough to add your thoughts, less some kind of big stuff is said. Like to see you comment more often Sir.

Dallas

Regarding Meier simply "believing" his own story, I guess the problem is that there are other "believers" too...like JPL, NASA and Science magazine.

Here's Meier's quote:

"Now I am still wondering, if regarding the volcanic action on the moon Io, I remember correctly. If I am right, then you explained that the volcanic eruptions there would occur with primordial power and resemble monstrous explosions, which would thrust up their ejected material like atomic mushrooms, whereby sometimes heights would be reached up to 180 kilometer. Principally, it involves dust particles, gasses, ashes and some magma, but which would reach ejection velocities up to 2,300 kilometer per hour and beyond, as due to the lack of atmosphere of the moon, only minute resistance power is present. But you also said that the largest portion of all ejected material again falls back on the moon, as I already mentioned before. The rest, you explained, would be pushed out into space, while a part of it is drawn by Jupiter and very slowly densifies in its ring to a heavy sulphur-ion-combination. Is that correct?"




Now please read the following, published in January 1980, in Science magazine:
"Images of the ring of singly ionized sulfur encircling Jupiter, obtained on two successive nights in April 1979, show that the ring characteristics may change dramatically in about 24 hr."

adsabs.harvard.edu...)


Please also note that while Meier published this in October 1978, Stevens already put his March 9, 1979 date on having the document and then having the other two men read and sign off on it. So it appears that Ike was indeed wrong...unless you want to start creating far reaching conspiracies involving Stevens, the two other men - and some parties having been very “psychic” to even concern themselves with the potential importance of fine, ultimately accurate details, of Meier's varied scientific information - decades in advance.

And please also confirm the info here regarding the surface of Io:

www.nineplanets.org...

And then compare it with what Meier reported:

"Aha, and will then perhaps also be discovered, that the ring around Jupiter, for the most part, consists of particles catapulted outward by large volcanoes of the moon, Io, which partially are captured by Jupiter while, however, the largest portion of all the outward catapulted material again falls back on Io, and practically closes all volcano openings again, but also the gigantic plateaus and mountains, which this moon, in contrast to the other moons of Jupiter, proves to have no carter landscape, but a fantastic evenness, despite the many craters?"

To understand the above in context see:

www.theyfly.com...


To REALLY understand the above in context, THINK about what the skeptics would have us believe:

That a one-armed farmer, living in rural Switzerland, raising a family with three children (on partial disability income and working as a night watchman), while renovating a run down farm house, has the time, money, technology, inclination, finances, assistance and motivation to not only "hoax" 1,200 clear, daytime, still irreproducible UFO photos, films, video, sound recordings and metal samples but is also skilled enough in photography, model making, (non-existent at the time) digital effects, special effects, photo manipulation, sound recording and engineering, metallurgy, electronics, astronomy, physics, biology, astrophysics, topography, chemistry, volcanism, geology, geography, atmospheric and environmental sciences, clairvoyance, mass hypnosis, juggling, etc. to not only fool people but keep a "hoax" of this magnitude going...for 65 years.


That the armchair expert/proponents of THAT conspiratorial theory aren't embarrassed and humiliated to even suggest it is the real joke...on them.

Originally posted by Dr Love

I believe the attempts on his life were real.

I go with my gut based on some of the evidence, the damaging evidence I believe was fabricated and planted.

Peace

Maybe the attempts where real. Would that attempt proof it is done by any government? No it does not, the world is full of lunatics afterall to. So you believe anything not damaging is real, but trow everything else that can proof his hoax in the bin, because it is damaging for his credibilty? Wow, thats amazing.

Where are the original papers from his 'predictions' Michael? I'm sure the original papers are kept somewhere safe to proof the paper is indeed from the 70's no?

I hope everyone sees the moving goalposts and flipping this man does after his last post. You all were here when I did the disc shots as he challenged, you saw me say then that my challenge was for him to submit Meier's original negs to 3rd party independant testing just alongside mine. He's dodged and ducked that *every time*, and IIG and I are *still* waiting.

He's only hung up and crying about tree shots now. More duplication...MORE. Can it be done? Yeah. Is it worth it? No. I think we've shown enough on this WCUFO to show exactly what it is.

If I or someone else duplicated the WCUFO and tree shots to a T, we'd be right back here, doing this all over again, with Michael sreaming "now duplicate the sound you lying slandering cowards!!"

Enough with the "duplicate it" crap. It's been done, and did nothing to stop this kind of mess.

Michael has just made the claim that JPL and Nasa are believers in the Meier case...so someone get on the phone and call and ask these 2 entities what their position is on the Meier case. When you get the answer post it here. You *know* what it's going to be. It's really rather silly isnt it?

Again, we're paying far too much attention to the lies and B.S...I know it's somewhat fun watching Mikie twist in the wind, but enough. Horn feeds and thrives on negative attention (no Dr. needed to see that), and we've given too much as it is.

[edit on 9-5-2007 by jritzmann]

Originally posted by Michael12
The "I Want To See The Negatives!" Argument

Translation: ...because I can't duplicate Meier's photos and I want to see how he did it.

That is not an appropriate translation.

Given that we now have a mountain of evidence that prove "The Meier Contacts meet all standards for a preponderance of proof beyond a reasonable doubt" to be a hoax, the only thing the negatives will provide is a clear look at the hoax, and perhaps improved detail on the hoax construction.

Originally posted by Michael12
Let's deal with this diversionary tactic about demanding to see the negatives. If Meier used models and miniature trees, as JR has been screaming for over 1 1/2 years, what's the big deal about the negatives? After all, when JR said that he could prove that Meier used models and that he would duplicate his photos, film and video, it was then up to JR to perform, not Meier.

You are turning this into a diversionary tactics through your unethical twisting and subversion of people's clearly posted words. See above. The negatives will provide improved clarity that is currently lacking.

Originally posted by Michael12
And just what reputation is now at stake? Is it really so bad that someone can't duplicate and show a hoax where there is none?

You are desperately attempting to create a false controversy. Fantastic claims require fantastic evidentiary support, of which you refuse to provide. The burden of evidence is your responsibility. Just because no one wishes to expend the effort to prove a proven hoax is no reason to assume the hoax is not proven. Such double-reverse logic is the refuge of con men.

Originally posted by Michael12
Who do we respect more, the bully who won't admit when he's wrong...or the guy who says, "Hey, sorry, I guess I was mistaken."?

I will respect you when you say, "Hey, sorry, I guess I was mistaken about the Billy Meier material.

Originally posted by Michael12
For what it's worth, it was proven to the satisfaction of the original investigators in their 8-year long investigation - and then again by Gary Kinder in his own independent investigation - that Meier never possessed the equipment, facility, finances or knowledge to do photo manipulations. Just like he never made or possessed models for his evidence, which would have included him having THREE and FOUR models to use in some of his films and photos.

These these were either weak-minded investigators, or they didn't possess as many facts as we have here today. Many of the factoids about Meier's models and faked photos surfaced long after those early investigations.

Originally posted by Michael12
Here's what none of you want to think about or understand. When JR started to make his claims regarding Meier using miniature trees and models, he felt VERY confident that he was going to reveal the "hoax"

He and many others did. Your deceptive double-reverse logic does not change that.

Originally posted by Michael12
Regarding Meier simply "believing" his own story, I guess the problem is that there are other "believers" too...like JPL, NASA and Science magazine.

Please grace us with recent documentation from these sources that indicate they officially support the story of Billy Meier. If you cannot, then we will add this to the long list of your documented deceptions here and elsewhere.

Originally posted by Cygnific
Maybe the attempts where real. Would that attempt proof it is done by any government?

Well see, in the black and white world we all seem to live in, it'd have to be either the government or a lunatic. In my obviously deranged way of thinking, I think most of the attempts were made by people not necessarily affiliated with any government, but more along the lines of people dedicated to preserving the status quo. People who work in the shadows for people with all the real power. Maybe they really weren't trying to kill Billy, just trying to send a message. I believe Billy said himself that one of the people who took a shot at him, a woman I believe, called him sometime later and apologized and ended up working for Billy. Sounds like the perfect infiltration to me. Nice to have someone on the inside wouldn't you say? Billy was obviously too simple a man to think along my lines, but I wouldn't have done that if I were him.

Originally posted by Cygnific
So you believe anything not damaging is real, but trow everything else that can proof his hoax in the bin, because it is damaging for his credibilty? Wow, thats amazing.

All I can say here is see 9/11, see JFK, see RFK. The masses can be manipulated and are all the time. Some of those pictures attributed to Billy are so slam-dunk fake, along with the smoking gun evidence left around so obviously that a three year old could find it, that they seemingly blow all of Billy's credibility out of the water. That's good enough for most people, but I'm not most people.

Edit: And let me add that I don't know what side Michael is really working for. He could be coming off as one thing and really doing another.

Peace

[edit on 9-5-2007 by Dr Love]

Moving goal posts?

Okay, Jeffie:

One side by side photo of your cute little model UFO attached to your miniature tree...next to Meier's.

That's all. You PROMISED it...but you can't do it.

And you KNOW it.

Originally posted by Michael12
One side by side photo of your cute little model UFO attached to your miniature tree...next to Meier's.
That's all. You PROMISED it...but you can't do it.

NOTICE
You're misrepresenting the statements of a confirmed UFOlogy expert who graciously volunteers his free time to aid ATS members in their research of contemporary sightings.

I would strongly advise you to recall the unsavory statements you made in the past that brought about your banning from ATS the last time you were here. You're currently headed toward a similar scenario in your recent postings.

I believe I can speak for all members and staff when I say we would much prefer to discuss the Meier case with your involvement here on ATS. However, your involvement must be in line with our clearly stated desires that all discussions and debates happen with civilized polite decorum. If you cannot learn to behave on ATS, you will have to learn to observe these discussions without the benefit of your contributions.

Thank you.

Originally posted by Michael12
Moving goal posts?

In the likely event you either missed or ignored this:

Originally posted by Michael12
Regarding Meier simply "believing" his own story, I guess the problem is that there are other "believers" too...like JPL, NASA and Science magazine.

Please grace us with recent documentation from these sources that indicate they officially support the story of Billy Meier. If you cannot, then we will add this to the long list of your documented deceptions here and elsewhere.

this is ridiculous. Michael, you claim Meier has papers, negatives, metals, etc at his home, why not just let them be tested by an independent (read not hired and/or paid for by Meier or one of his associates), unrelated party? Why ask for duplicates when you can shut the world up once and for all?

You clearly won't give up the ghost so, rather than waste your time and money with the back and forth bogus arguments, why not put the items up for real study, let the world find out that it is all real and true and then watch as the title "Authorized American Representative" actually have some merit. You'll also be able to claim the Randi prize. You'll be rich, Meier's group (FIGU) will be inundated with people wanting to join and y'all can sit back and count your dollars while those of us who think y'all are full of bunk wind up looking like the biggest morons on the planet.



Please answer the question and not give some manifesto about one armed men, duplicates, sound repro etc.

Let me repeat the question since you have yet to address any of the direct questions:
Why won't you and/or Meier allow the so called documentary evidence, the metal, the negatives etc be tested by an independent, unrelated third party?

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
I believe I can speak for all members and staff when I say we would much prefer to discuss the Meier case with your involvement here on ATS.

He seems to be torpedoeing his own cause. We must ask ourselves if he's doing it on purpose. If he is really is the representative for Billy, is he acting accordingly? If I were Billy I'd cut bait.

This leads me to another question, is Billy still of sound mind?

Peace

Originally posted by Michael12
Moving goal posts?

Okay, Jeffie:

One side by side photo of your cute little model UFO attached to your miniature tree...next to Meier's.

That's all. You PROMISED it...but you can't do it.

And you KNOW it.

Thats already moving the goalposts, I did duplication of photos, and you KNOW it. You refuse to submit original Meier shots to independant analysis, so I'm well in fulfillment of your "challenge", it's you who's failed (for over a year) to meet mine and IIG West's. Everyone seems to know this but you.

At this point I wont give you the time of day on *anything*.