Forest on Mars !?!?

And right in the same area of the hole is a reflection of that dark area that you can see on the crater wall.

Another spectacular image of water on Mars.

ArMap, the trees on Mars are not like the ones on Earth. Did you see the size of the "Banyan trees" on page 1? Obviously they are different.

However, nature grows along fractal lines. reality is fractal, it is mathematic. you can expect all things to be fractal in nature. this might be a more mundane explanation for some of our pictures of octagon or hexagon shaped rings or craters. i would be willing to bet that sleeper's "Sun is pregnant theory" has a decent liklihood of being accurate, based on the concept of a fibonacci sequence type of orbit making us follow a pattern similar to a record label. maybe that is what the ancients were trying to tell us when they etched countless spirals into cave walls?

Pardon this previous rambling....i was thinking out loud i guess.

The short of it is that life will grow along certain lines. Fractal geometry controls the growth and creation of all massive dissipative/replicative structures and biological machines. The differences we should expect to see when looking at life on other planets would be surrounding environmental adaptations such as size, scale, and possibly overall design (to allow for things like thinner atmosphere or more radiation).

This is exactly what i see when i look at this thread. fractal similarites that make mars almost resemble arizona.

Originally posted by blue bird
- bigger and slower waves on Mars

- if gravity ( so they tell us) is about 1/3 G you can than imageine water to fall 1/3 slowley..

With a 1/3 G gravity things do not fall slower, they accelerate slower. Water (or any other thing) falling from 10 metres high would reach the ground at 8 m/s on Mars when on Earth it reaches the ground at 14 m/s.

** * regarding ripples in the middle of the crater - well I also said before - water surface can have uneven ripples ( algorithm) due to uneven distribution of wind ( as dynamic parameter) strength over surface ( speed /direction) so we can have different surface roughness. And there can also be a different surface temperature. Surface asymmetries can very well occur.

Yes, but those things on the photo of the crater are too large to be ripples, they are at least 4.5 metres wide, and waves of that size should travel longer than what we see, especially with less gravity.

ArMaP - you didn't comment of one obvious fact that we cane see on the crater image - WATER LINE well defined, different in color!

It does not look like a water line to me because in some places it looks like it has a different colour over it that would spread over the water line, like near that hole on the crater rim, that dark color passes over what would be the water line. It's a bit difficult to explain, but in the case of the "water line" I think that there is something that makes it not look like a water line but I can't really say what it is.

Originally posted by ArMaP

Originally posted by blue bird
- bigger and slower waves on Mars

- if gravity ( so they tell us) is about 1/3 G you can than imageine water to fall 1/3 slowley..

With a 1/3 G gravity things do not fall slower, they accelerate slower. Water (or any other thing) falling from 10 metres high would reach the ground at 8 m/s on Mars when on Earth it reaches the ground at 14 m/s.

No - exactly is like this: if Mars gravity is 1/3 Earth gravity - for exemple, the BALL WILL FALL 1/3 THE ACCELERATION DONE ON EARTH - what we know as 1/3 G....if you want to be precise - I thought that everybody would understand, what was said with “fall“...


...as the ball will hits in the ear stays 3x longer there - and 3x higher ....

[edit on 23-6-2007 by blue bird]

Hi all. I just thought I'd chime in on this one. I don't normally have a very worthwhile contribution to make to this thread, but avidly watch it.

So, the ripples on the bottom of that crater? Sandwaves. Wait, before you start swearing! I'm not talking about dunes. Sandwaves are an aquatic phenomena. We have some in the English Chanel very near to where I am moored. These can grow tremendously large and are 'carved' by ocean currents or tides. Some huge ones were recently found in San Francisco bby the USGS:

More than 40 large (greater than 50-m wavelength) sand waves were mapped, with crest-to-crest lengths of as much as 220 m (722 ft) and heights of as much as 10 m (33 ft). The scale of these massive features is unusual because of the modest tidal range in the region (max 2.65 m [8.7 ft] between low and high tide), as opposed to other sites where large sand waves are present (for example, the typical tidal range in the Bay of Fundy is 17 m [56 ft]). But these features persist because tides force an enormous flow through the relatively narrow Golden Gate strait—a total volume of 2 billion m3 (528 billion gallons) every 6 hours—resulting in tidal currents that typically exceed 2.5 m/s (5.6 mph). These strong flows effectively sweep all mobile sediment through the narrowest part of the channel. However, the large sediment-transport capacity of these flows diminishes as they emerge from the Golden Gate, spread out, and slow down, dropping much of their sediment to form one of the largest sand-wave fields in the world.

from:soundwaves.usgs.gov/2006/09/research.html

I'd say the size of these sandwaves matches up fairly well, no? These sandwaves form longitudinally with the flow of water, which in the case of the martian crater would have to be caused by prevailing winds. The reason that you aren't seeing them out toward the edges of the crater floor is that the crater edges set up a situation where any flow toward the edges gets backed up and slowed down, forcing the sediment held in suspension to fall to the sea/lake/crater floor.

In my opinion, these could well have formed this way. Unfortunately I don't think they would be visible through water, were it still present, due to the refraction index, but I could be wrong.

[edit on 23-6-2007 by Karilla]

Thanks much Karilla!

Although I explained, why I think of water substance in this crater - you are very right on formation of rippled sand dune by water, specially in the valleys , big lake or river beds, so numerous on Mars.


Regarding transparency - we don't have information on deeps of crater or transparency of possible watery substance.

Water poured out of the mouth of Uzboi Vallis (center) into Holden Crater through its southern rim. The water laid down layers of sediments inside Holden. One possible landing site for the Mars Science Laboratory rover is the flat, smooth area at right center, just beyond where the channel cuts through the rim. This rendering (vertical exaggeration about 2x) looks toward the southwest. It was created using data from various spacecraft. Credit: NASA/JPL/Arizona State University, R. Luk

source

They do recognize that some crater was filled with water - and the idea here on Holden crater is that water was poured through crater rim- as is the case here, where we see a hole and upper canal like depression through water is being supplied to crater.

Holden crater's wide floor, shown in a newly released image, has abundant layered sediments, channels, and large piles of debris at canyon mouths. These suggest a long history of deposits by water. NASA/JPL/Arizona State University

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
The short of it is that life will grow along certain lines. Fractal geometry controls the growth and creation of all massive dissipative/replicative structures and biological machines. The differences we should expect to see when looking at life on other planets would be surrounding environmental adaptations such as size, scale, and possibly overall design (to allow for things like thinner atmosphere or more radiation).

This is exactly what i see when i look at this thread. fractal similarites that make mars almost resemble arizona.

OK, I understand what you say, but we should not forget that those fractal similarities may happen in all natural things, those "trees", based only on its shape, could be the result of the spreading of some liquid on those areas or they could even be animals like coral.

But one thing is certain, Mars is a very interesting place, with or without forests.

Well, this looks to me like now empty crater :




source
...but this one !?

source

I see this crater in Terra Cimmeria - full of gullies on slopes, meandering canals - carved by water - but now empty !?

ArMap, this is very true.

I am not even saying that are really trees, i am saying they look like trees.

The fact that fractals are the prevailing construct is going to pervade river paths, too.

The constructs could be mineral deposits of some sort, or they could be some form of animal life. Or they could be some form of life completely dissimilar to what we know. I doubt that to be true, however, because we are from the same solar environment, which i believe dictates life construct as well.

The possibilities are endless, and as you say it is fascinating.

ArMap! Nothing looks like water to you, does it The sad thing is, even if we landed on Mars tomorrow, we would still never get a straight answer from NASA


[edit on 23-6-2007 by Cydonian Priest]

Originally posted by ArMaP
As I said before, sorry, I sometimes over-react and feel attacked with minor things.

I will try to improve my behaviour.

And based on that last response of yours i can see we are both going to be here for a long time to come! As to the question of attitude, or behaviour, being 'wrong' that is not my point and i would still much rather like to know why you spend your time here objecting instead of at least correcting when you must intervene in issues that have not been settled.

Big mystery to me but i can see your absolutely set in your ways so we might very well have many years more to settle this issue.

EDIT

Originally posted by ArMaP
OK, I understand what you say, but we should not forget that those fractal similarities may happen in all natural things,

Few sane people will forget that and i must admit my fascination with the fact that otherwise educated people feel that they must remind the rest of us of other more mundane explanations.

those "trees", based only on its shape, could be the result of the spreading of some liquid on those areas or they could even be animals like coral.

Do you feel we need to consider such odd coincidences instead of just looking and seeing the trees for what they are? Why must i spend my time trying to arrive at conclusions that must defend the main stream explanations? Why should these corals look like trees ( and cast shadows like trees and change from season to season) or why should the pools be shaped like trees? Why must we go out so far onto the limbs ( excuse the pun) to find possible alternaties to the most likely explanation? Where is it that occams razor stops applying when the science establishment feels inclined to defend it's theories so dogmatically?

But one thing is certain, Mars is a very interesting place, with or without forests.

"I stand before you and tell you, quite honestly, I'm shocked by these results," said Michael Mumma, an astrobiologist at NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Md.

Mumma and colleagues discovered unusually high levels of methane at two places in Mars' atmosphere: above the Hellas Basin, a giant impact scar in Mars' southern hemisphere, and Valles Marineris, the great canyon system near the Martian equator.

Methane is a gas that, on Earth, is produced naturally by plants and animals, such as in wetlands and in the stomachs of cows. On Mars, methane is much rarer. It isn't produced in the atmosphere and likely would be destroyed there by chemical reactions within a few hundred years.

So finding methane in the atmosphere suggests that something on Mars' surface is producing it, Mumma said. The question is whether that something is alive.

seattletimes.nwsource.com...

But "alive" could be geologically alive and not necessarily biologically alive, Mumma said.

"Or Mars could be biologically alive," he added. "Or maybe both. So to me that’s the real issue. Now we think that Mars is not a dead planet. Even if it’s just geology that is occurring and releasing this methane…that’s pretty darn interesting. And the geologists are very excited about this prospect."

www.space.com...

At the same meeting, NASA's Planetary Protection Officer, John Rummel, described the alternative explanations: "methane in the atmosphere...is a detection from the planetary Fourier spectrometer. ESA, the European Space Agency, has put out an announcement that it's been detected at 10 to 20 parts per billion. Well, methane in the atmosphere on Mars can mean one of three things: either vulcanism, possibly microbial life, or maybe cows. We haven't seen the cows yet. I doubt that we'll find them. But one of the other two would be a very interesting thing to find out."

www.astrobio.net...

So as before i must ask why such a high ranking NASA 'officer' ( i keep telling people that) is now making cow jokes; i think we are already way beyond denying trees but i know you will just go on doing it anyways....

Stellar

[edit on 23-6-2007 by StellarX]

Originally posted by Cydonian Priest
ArMap! Nothing looks like water to you, does it

Well, when I see something that looks like water to me I will say so.

At the moment, the closest thing to a liquid deposit that I have found was this:

from here, but I may be wrong, I don't know how much of it could be shadow.

PS: It's better viewed copying the image to an image editing program to change the brightness or gamma correction.

Originally posted by StellarX
Few sane people will forget that and i must admit my fascination with the fact that otherwise educated people feel that they must remind the rest of us of other more mundane explanations.

I don't fell that need, it was just a figure of speech (I suppose that is the right name).

Do you feel we need to consider such odd coincidences instead of just looking and seeing the trees for what they are?

We do not need to consider anything, but we can do it, and if we can do it why shouldn't we do it?

Why must i spend my time trying to arrive at conclusions that must defend the main stream explanations?

I don't know, I don't think that anyone must spend time whith that, only if they want to.

Why should these corals look like trees (and cast shadows like trees and change from season to season) or why should the pools be shaped like trees? Why must we go out so far onto the limbs ( excuse the pun) to find possible alternaties to the most likely explanation?

It could be the most likely explanation to you, but it's not the most likely explanation to me. One of the reasons is that I do not remember seeing trees without any other type of life near them. Another thing is that I do not see anything that looks like the shadows of the trees.

Where is it that occams razor stops applying when the science establishment feels inclined to defend it's theories so dogmatically?

That you should ask to someone from the science establishment.

So as before i must ask why such a high ranking NASA 'officer' ( i keep telling people that) is now making cow jokes; i think we are already way beyond denying trees but i know you will just go on doing it anyways....

I deny the idea of those being trees because, to me, they do not look like trees.

Thx ArMaP!

On upper side I found this possible water strikes - very light in coloring soil underneath - just wet look...

Don't know what could that be - but image was enhanced, so I removed it and can see a relief structure - not a flat surface - subsurface aquafires !?

But on the link I see that this is a part of research of Martian volcanism - but this is interesting:


“Another high priority is to image places where both lava and water have come gushing from the ground. These are places where microbes that might live in the deep, warm, wet parts of the crust could have been brought to the surface. Finding scientifically interesting spots that are safe to land future rovers is one of the primary goals for the MRO mission.“

source

So - here is answer lava or water...pick one foks

EARTH


MARS







Skipper

No shadow?

Originally posted by blue bird
No shadow?

strip

strip

Absolutely relevant points Stellar!

That is what is troubling me a lot - we see all this changes late winter/spring time on Mars on south pole - this 'dark' circular spots 'growing' - and all we get is : 'defrosting of carbon dioxide" - like on this image:



source: nasa



FLORIDA:



source



or circular features// Nassau- Bahamas in shallow waters:







[edit on 24-6-2007 by blue bird]