Forest on Mars !?!?

Pretty amassing image - channels like these are the best evidence of water erosion...

Originally posted by ArMaP
I don't see anything that could be water on that (exaggeratedly zoomed) photo.

Where should I be looking to see the water?

Now!?



Where should you be looking - at the image...ripples, uniform level, reflection..






The other crater from the same msss strip - look like smaller amount of water - on upper part it looks dry -like these Earth crater lake:




It is clearly visible - that something is seeping from rim - this “darker“ material“ ... like this...

Originally posted by zorgon

Originally posted by Cydonian Priest
It's alright ArMap, I still believe the Earth is flat, even though photographic evidence and everyone tells me it's round. We are rebels, you and I

There is a Baptist church here in Vegas that still teaches that Dinosaurs didn't exist...

But if its flat as you claim... how can it be hollow?

[edit on 21-6-2007 by zorgon]

SImple, the Earth as we all know it, is flat, but not like a piece of paper. Think a rectangle! So the world can still be hollow!

Originally posted by zorgon
I think you will recall that I thought that image was fine hematite particles

but who listens to me?

Yes, that is the problem when we write something that the other people do not want to read.

Not bad of course I would have to add that the dark area looks like its damp, perhaps just below the surface...and the darkness seems to follow your ripples

The problem with these grey-scale photos is that we do not know if that area is darker or if it's a different colour.

And I don't think we can see a false colour image of that area, they only use the Blue+Green and the Infrared filters on the centre of the large image, and this area is not on the centre.

So you have been holding out on us all this time...

What do you mean by that? I do not understand it, sorry.

Originally posted by blue bird

-Crater Lakes on Paoha Island Mono Lake, Calif.

source

........... they look like the one from MSSS strip - do they ArMaP?...

Do you mean like this one?

Yes, I think they do.

Originally posted by blue bird
....or these one - geothermal lake /Iceland



....looks more like fine sand than the Mars one.....

This also looks like that "hole" on my previous post, especially when seen from above.

Askja from above

To me this does not look more like fine sand because sand does not, usually, stay on a perfectly horizontal plane without making any dunes or creating some pattern, and that does happen with water or any other liquid for obvious reasons.

Also, the border of the lake shows some colour mixing that does not appear on the sand.

Originally posted by blue bird
Where should you be looking - at the image...ripples, uniform level, reflection..

Ripples are small, the "ripples" on that crater, using a 4.5 metres per pixel scale, must be at least 3 metres wide, to big for ripples, the right size for waves (but they do not show the typical behaviour of waves) or the right size for sand dunes (and they show the typical dune behaviour).

As for the uniform level, sand is perfectly capable of creating perfectly flat surfaces, making only some patterns when blown by the wind, and with this resolution is very difficult to see if that area is really flat or if it has some irregularities that are not big enough to be seen at this distance. That is one of the reasons I like the photos from HiRISE, the bigger resolution shows much more detail.

Reflection is difficult to see when a photo is taken in an almost perfect perpendicular to the reflecting surface, and this photo was taken in those conditions, that is why there are no reflections on that Google Maps photo I posted before from Askja.

The other crater from the same msss strip - look like smaller amount of water - on upper part it looks dry -like these Earth crater lake:

It does not look like liquid to me because of the other areas with the same colour (or at least with the same shade of grey when photographed with what I assume was a Red filter, the most used). The presence of other areas of that colour makes me think more of different colours of sand or dust than of a liquid.

Also, you must think that scale is important. We can clearly see the different levels of water concentration on the border of a lake when we are close to it; darker areas nearer the water because they have more moisture, lighter areas farther from the water until we reach the normal colour of the ground. When seen from far enough we cannot see that gradation in colours, unless the material over which the water is spreading as some very unique characteristics.

Ah! YES! More Earth pictures! Just what I cam to the "Forest on Mars!?!?" thread for! Why don't we make a "Forest and water on Earth?!?!" thread to discuss this

ArMaP
To me this does not look more like fine sand because sand does not, usually, stay on a perfectly horizontal plane without making any dunes or creating some pattern, and that does happen with water or any other liquid for obvious reasons.

Ok - this is water (and it is...we know coz it is from Earth) ):




Than you said - “sand usually doesn not stay on perfict horisontal plane...look here:








Skipper


* new image Martian North Pole



original/larger image

Originally posted by Cydonian Priest
Ah! YES! More Earth pictures! Just what I cam to the "Forest on Mars!?!?" thread for! Why don't we make a "Forest and water on Earth?!?!" thread to discuss this

It is called analogy -works nice in physics // gas: billiard ball....not to mention checking all harsh places on Earth to compare with Mars..

No - it defiantly has a distinct line and uniform horizontal level ...N- on image depression is visible - like a canal that possibly flow the water into the crater...and, yes - ripples are typical for watery surface - and there is altered albedo on ripples.

*Aguas Calientes:




- see the ripples?

source

Originally posted by blue bird

Originally posted by Cydonian Priest
Ah! YES! More Earth pictures! Just what I cam to the "Forest on Mars!?!?" thread for! Why don't we make a "Forest and water on Earth?!?!" thread to discuss this

It is called analogy -works nice in physics // gas: billiard ball....not to mention checking all harsh places on Earth to compare with Mars..

I know, I just had to crack a joke at all the earth pictures. Sometimes it is hard to tell the difference between what is Earth and what is Mars. We should put a redish shade over Earth pics and see if there is a difference.

Originally posted by blue bird
Than you said - “sand usually doesn not stay on perfict horisontal plane...look here:

Is this supposed to be water or sand? This does not look horizontal and it does not look like water either.

Skipper

* new image Martian North Pole



original/larger image

To me, those white areas do not look like sand, if that is what you want to know, but they do not look like liquid either, water or any other liquid.

No - it defiantly has a distinct line and uniform horizontal level

To me it looks like the centre is lower than near the crater rim, but that could just be a trick of the light.

...N- on image depression is visible - like a canal that possibly flow the water into the crater

Yes, I see something that looks like a canal, but the darker area is over the sides of the "canal", making it unlikely that the darker area represents water or any other liquid (I suppose that is the area you were talking about).

That is more visible in this image, that I only resized to 200% and rotated to be in the same position as yours.



You can also see that the greater contrast of your image makes it loose some detail and it even looks a little "flat", although it has more colours than my grey-scale image.

...and, yes - ripples are typical for watery surface - and there is altered albedo on ripples.

*Aguas Calientes:



- see the ripples?

source

Yes, I see the ripples, do you see your error?

You are comparing a lake with maybe 50 metres diameter with a crater with around 400 metres. The ripples on the lake are very small, the supposed ripples on the crater floor are larger in proportion than the ripples on the lake, and the crater is almost ten times (maybe) larger than the lake.

Also, on the last image, the ripples are not visible.

Yes, I see the ripples, do you see your error?

You are comparing a lake with maybe 50 metres diameter with a crater with around 400 metres. The ripples on the lake are very small, the supposed ripples on the crater floor are larger in proportion than the ripples on the lake, and the crater is almost ten times (maybe) larger than the lake.

Also, on the last image, the ripples are not visible.

* I don't know how do you come with size of crater?

* but it does not matter - coz you miss something about ripples on water surface: on calm /flat water you first see tiny ripples which are created due to fluctuation of wind passing over water surface- on some parts of water there are stronger than on the other. If a wind start to blow with more force - ripples get bigger ( after that we are talking about waves)

* you must remember the gravity difference Mars/Earth:it surface tension of water- is same on Earth and Mars, but with lower (1/3) gravity surface tension wins- bigger ripples...bigger waves - like ripples on Mars dune are much bigger than on Earth - sand can stack up together much higher... On Earth we have few cm on the same or larger dune than on Mars - where ripples on Mars can be 5m tall.

if you are interested ....



* * The last image I post just for similarity in circular shape - and no, you an not see ripples like in Mars crater possible water surface - because it is not nadir image like Mars one.

Yes, I see something that looks like a canal, but the darker area is over the sides of the "canal", making it unlikely that the darker area represents water or any other liquid (I suppose that is the area you were talking about).

There is a clear hole on the rim of the crater - but also a oval depression OVER the rim - like a little open canal (which is more clearly visible on my 'green' image).

Regardless of that - the porosity of soil could very well make some capillary upward flow ....what exact soil is there, what conditions - we don't know..

Yes, I see the ripples, do you see your error?

You are comparing a lake with maybe 50 metres diameter with a crater with around 400 metres. The ripples on the lake are very small, the supposed ripples on the crater floor are larger in proportion than the ripples on the lake, and the crater is almost ten times (maybe) larger than the lake.

Also, on the last image, the ripples are not visible.

ArMap, respected friend, do you see your error?

The hydrodynamics on mars are not likely to be similar to earth. mars atmosphere, gravity, climate, and composition are very dissimilar with earth, on the whole, and to expect similar hydrodynamic effects on both bodys is presumptive.

Is such comparison really relevant?

Originally posted by ArMaP

Is this supposed to be water or sand? This does not look horizontal and it does not look like water either.

Say what you like it still looks like a Dam to me

up to 42 pages I have catching up to do... I really like that red lake Aguas Calientes seems its full of microorganisms

Originally posted by blue bird
* I don't know how do you come with size of crater?

According to this, the image has a resolution of 4.5 metres per pixel, counting the pixels gives an approximate size for any feature.

* but it does not matter - coz you miss something about ripples on water surface: on calm /flat water you first see tiny ripples which are created due to fluctuation of wind passing over water surface- on some parts of water there are stronger than on the other. If a wind start to blow with more force - ripples get bigger ( after that we are talking about waves)

Yes, that is true, but in that case, if those things inside the crater are waves, why only an area on the middle of the crater shows those waves? Should the waves propagate?

* you must remember the gravity difference Mars/Earth:it surface tension of water- is same on Earth and Mars, but with lower (1/3) gravity surface tension wins- bigger ripples...bigger waves - like ripples on Mars dune are much bigger than on Earth - sand can stack up together much higher... On Earth we have few cm on the same or larger dune than on Mars - where ripples on Mars can be 5m tall.

Using the immortal words of Homer Simpson - Dohh! I forgot the lower gravity!

But I think we can not use the difference in size of the dunes as a way of measuring the difference in size of the waves, because the material from which the dunes are made is solid, we can put more sand over the existing sand, but we can not put more water over the existing water.

And, if the atmosphere is thinner, then the winds must have less energy to make waves than Earth winds.

if you are interested ....

I am always interested in learning, it's one of the few things we can do all our life and at any moment, thanks.

Regardless of that - the porosity of soil could very well make some capillary upward flow ....what exact soil is there, what conditions - we don't know..

I don't think that a capillary effect could be responsible for something of that size, but who knows, that soil has completely unknown capillary characteristics.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
ArMap, respected friend, do you see your error?

The hydrodynamics on mars are not likely to be similar to earth. mars atmosphere, gravity, climate, and composition are very dissimilar with earth, on the whole, and to expect similar hydrodynamic effects on both bodys is presumptive.

Yes, I forgot the difference in gravity (I must remember not to make posts in a hurry), but if all those factors you enumerated are different, why should we expect to find on Mars things that look like those on Earth, like trees?

Is such comparison really relevant?

I think it is, but not as much as I thought when I was writing that post.

Gravity is important factor - as I said, lower the gravity - bigger surface tension which behave like a stretched membrane: it can flatten or form bulges.


Here is very interesting article how astronauts onboard the ISS study the behavior of the water in zero-G...

must see video...part1

part2

nasa

- bigger and slower waves on Mars - if gravity ( so they tell us) is about 1/3 G you can than imageine water to fall 1/3 slowley..



** * regarding ripples in the middle of the crater - well I also said before - water surface can have uneven ripples ( algorithm) due to uneven distribution of wind ( as dynamic parameter) strength over surface ( speed /direction) so we can have different surface roughness. And there can also be a different surface temperature. Surface asymmetries can very well occur.

ArMaP - you didn't comment of one obvious fact that we cane see on the crater image - WATER LINE well defined, different in color!





* hole:





[edit on 23-6-2007 by blue bird]