Real Talk about White Privilege

However, I have a question for you both: what does this have to do with the topic?

How, and when you came to know the topic is of interest to me. People's experiences have everything to do with how they develop their opinions. I was hoping that with a little personal info, I could gain a better insight as to why you have the opinions that you have expressed here.

Truth shared a little personal info and it made a world of difference in terms of understanding where he was coming from, and what he was trying to accomplish with this thread.

I still think that you two are reaching for the 6 cell at noon, but whatever. Good luck, and thank you again for answering my questions.

[edit on 20-3-2007 by phoenixhasrisin]

Originally posted by phoenixhasrisin

People's experiences have everything to do with how they develop their opinions. I was hoping that with a little personal info, I could gain a better insight as to why you have the opinions that you have expressed here.

I think that it is a little nosy to assume that everyone has the same standards of openness as you do. On the other hand, I am more interested in topics, ideas and sources. Emotionality and personal issues only seems to muddy the waters and contributes to deflecting the topic.

Truth shared a little personal info and it made a world of difference in terms of understanding where he was coming from, and what he was trying to accomplish with this thread.

I'm glad that his insights helped you to understand the topic. That's good to hear. But it still doesn't explain how my questions have helped in any way to define white privilege. Don't get me wrong. I was very happy to answer them. But, I am trying to stay on topic now without any deviation. I think you'd appreciate that.

[edit on 20-3-2007 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by ceci2006

I think that it is a little nosy to assume that everyone has the same standards of openness as you do.

That's fine, you are entitled to your opinion. What is it again you tell people about what they think of your "posting style"? Oh yes, I couldn't care less.

I'm glad that his insights helped you to understand the topic. That's good to hear.

I didn't say it helped me to understand the topic, I understand the topic quite well thank you. I said it helped me to understand why he started the thread, and what he was trying to accomplish by doing so.

But it still doesn't explain how my questions have helped in any way to define white privilege.

You asked what my questions had to do with the topic of the thread, and the topic of the thread is real talk about white privilege, not defining white privilege.

It's fun playing verbatim, huh?

Originally posted by phoenixhasrisin

That's fine, you are entitled to your opinion. What is it again you tell people about what they think of your "posting style"? Oh yes, I couldn't care less.

Okay.

I didn't say it helped me to understand the topic, I understand the topic quite well thank you. I said it helped me to understand why he started the thread, and what he was trying to accomplish by doing so.

Okay.

You asked what my questions had to do with the topic of the thread, and the topic of the thread is real talk about white privilege, not defining white privilege.

If you say so.

It's fun playing verbatim, huh?

Especially when I am having my first cup of tea in the morning.

Originally posted by ceci2006
Especially when I am having my first cup of tea in the morning.

Lighten up.

It's early here too and my protein shake is still coagulated.

Originally posted by ceci2006
How? What would a broader scheme of things entail?

Something other than black vs white. We are all human beings capable of being accepting or intollerent. I'm interested in this subject but believe that racism and other forms of biggotry are just a symptoms of a dark side of human nature [probably sadism]. That needs to be addressed.

That I am discussing my experiences and sources about race and racial identity?

You seem to see race first and human being second. With that in mind you cannot see others as individuals but as members of racial groups.

By all due respect, it's not something that I'm stuck with.

Sorry but I haven't really seen you discuss other subjects.

My skin color is something that others can see. My skin color is something that is also used by others as a way to determine how I think, my behavior as well as how I am received in society.

Why would you let biggots determine how you think?

There are many aspects of racism that I've had to deal with. I've dealt with white persons openly calling me names and shouting about my inferiority;

So have I but I concede that the multicultural; dynamic is far different in the US than in Aus. I also spent my entire school life being singled out and been a victim of severe bullying so I can definently empathise with you there.

Persecution is persecution.. perhaps that is what I'm trying to get you to see rather than it being 'just about race'.

I've been followed and watched by police;

I hate when that happens. Experienced it a few times.. no doubt for different reasons.

during an academic competition in which I was in the "Honors section" (i.e. the highest section in the competition), I was told by the white judges that I didn't "belong there" and I had to go through dealing with showing them my qualifications to confirm I belonged in that section of the competition;

I hope they didn't do it in front of people to add to the humiliation.
I used to just get accused of cheating on tests.. always proved them wrong [which didn't help the student/teacher relationships].

I've been laughed at and harassed by some meanspirited white classmates;

Bullying is far too common and causes extreme emotional scarring. There should be 0 tolerence in schools.

I've been blamed for poor behavior by whites in power while watching them joke with the white people who have said and done racist things to me and witnessing a lack of punitive measures.

I guess being black would have made you a more obvious target. Again I've had similar things happen.. where someone does something wrong and you get the blame and punnishment while they gloat about it.. or when someone hits you and you have a go back and get accused of being a trouble maker.

There are so many more, but it would fill this entire post.

Thats okay. If you feel like sharing them you should.

For the most part, the white people I met in my educational life were very kind to me and were my friends (with the exception of my racist experiences). And I thank my white friends for their involvement in my life. Some of them are still my friends today. We openly discuss race for the most part. We ask each other questions. And their parents were very kind as well. My friends' parents were friends with mine.

I'm glad to hear it.

Despite what you think, I don't have a negative view about white people. On the whole, I have gotten along with white people with the exception of the subtle aspects of bias that I might experience individually and institutionally. And my parents' friends consist of not only different non-white races, but of white people. In fact, they and myself have friends internationally. I've mentioned this in my other threads.

Do you know anything about where they came from [Sweden, Scotland, France etc] or do you just see them as 'white people'? Do you know anything about the varied cultures?

Basically I'd like to be able to empathise with you but need to get a better idea of where you are coming from.

Thank you for saying that.

No problem.. I meant it.

hmm.. I don't really think many people would see me as representative of whites in general

Why?

Because most 'non whites' I meet do not consider one white woman as being an accurate reflection of an entire race.

I have difficulty grouping myself and others as 'white' and 'non white' as race isn't a big issue when dealing with people day in day out [unless the subject itself is brought up or they have issue with it]. I will however try answer your question with an objective mind.

You practice the "colorblind" theory in which you don't "see" race. Duly noted.

So not judging the individual person by the race is a bad thing..?

I'm very complicated and contradictory.. people who meet me quickly learn that my skin colour and gender aren't really relevent. Both whites and non whites are taken aback anyway.

So, by saying this, your use of "color-blindness" shocks people because you openly promote that you don't see your skin-color or your gender when you meet people.

Never said I didn't see skin colour Ceci [not sure what that even means]. I'm apparently a 'live wire' or 'eccentric'. My skin colour and gender is not relevent because my personality bucks any stereotype or archetype. People who don't know me.. well unfortuantly the stereotypes stand until they do. With bullies.. they're not interested in who I am anyway.

With that being said, why do you bother with talking about racism (I have never read any of your statements on sexism)? I hope you don't take offense with these questions. I am curious.

I don't like biggotry in any form.. and of course I've been accused of being a racist when it's not in my nature.. especially when it's by someone assaulting me for being white. Those kind of things, as you know, make it personal. I have a very stict code of ethics so I hate being accused of things I haven't done. I like things to be fair in life.

Here too, I have a question. Why did the notion of color and gender mean something to you here, opposed to before when you said that people were taken aback before?

Social situation [making friends] vs assumptions made about what I look like from a stupid punk standing on some train tracks with a rock in his hand. The first contact I had with him/them was the actual rocks making contact.

I understand that you defied the stereotypical white woman by fighting back, though. I think that all women have to stand up for ourselves in the same way.

Agreed. That stereotype is what some [abusive] men find attractive. They assume they can bully women without having to worry about getting hurt. They are cowards.

Well, you taught her to stand up for herself. That's a good thing.

Thanks.

See, that is good, because there is a cultural exchange going on. However, can you clarify what you meant by how they are big on the "western woman" myth?

They seemed to think that what western media portrays is how western women are. I didn't have a boyfriend at the time and one seemed 'shocked'.. not in a good way. I had to go into a big speech about not believing in one night stands etc. They sat either side of me asking me all sorts of bizarre questions. I said I didn't drive [costs way too much these days] and one immdiately said "We- [as in afgahns] -are alloud to drive.. doesn't your father let you?" one kept making comparisons as though it was a competition. Perhaps she was assuming I believed media hype or something.
The other sister is okay.. we talk about wedding traditions and arranged marriages. Apparently they don't have honeymoons. Very interesting.
I also make sure I wear my hair up when I go there as a 'middle ground'. I don't know whether they care or not but I do just to show respect.

That's good. But, you've got to understand for some people, culture and heritage is very important.

I don't deny this. You can share culture and heritage wthout giving it up.

Therefore, they do not see it as a barrier.

It's a barrier when some come from families that have taught them not to mingle with other cultures.

In fact, some enjoy talking about their culture and often invite one to share in it. This corresponds to the comfortability with identity that some have opposed to others. And when they are comfortable with dealing with all aspects of culture, race and ethnicity, these topics in their eyes are not viewed negatively.

Completely agree.

Pretty much that is the case.

But, has your (East?) Indian friend ever discussed issues with you about her culture and the concept of how she views herself in the midst of society?

Yes.. she is not hindu or buddhist.. I can't remember the name of her [family] religion atm [I wrote it down somewhere] but it's apparently the oldest and starts with 'Z' or something. She's a little on the outer herself as she refused an arranged marriage and did her own thing instead. She's also a bit of a hippy. Cool girl.

I hope that you don't take offense, but I am curious about this.

No probs Ceci.. and thanks for sharing your experiences.

[edit on 20-3-2007 by riley]

Originally posted by riley
Something other than black vs white. We are all human beings capable of being accepting or intollerent. I'm interested in this subject but believe that racism and other forms of biggotry are just a symptoms of a dark side of human nature [probably sadism]. That needs to be addressed.

I don't disagree with you. However, where we differ is how to approach the dark side of human nature.

You seem to see race first and human being second. With that in mind you cannot see others as individuals but as members of racial groups.

Well, that is because there are different ways to think about people. It does not say where you're right. It doesn't say that I'm right. But we all have to accept the fact that there are different experiences (and sources) that help make a full picture.

There are people in the world that view themselves as part of a larger community. That's how I see myself.

Sorry but I haven't really seen you discuss other subjects.

I've posted a lot about politics, sports and current events. I especially dealt with threads about the authoritarian personality as well as aspects of the American government.

Why would you let biggots determine how you think?

Seeing race isn't necessary bigotry. Or else all the sociologists, anthropologists, historians, politicians, and scholars in cultural studies, American studies, Whiteness studies and psychology would be portrayed as bigots.

Race is something that is studied, discussed and analyzed--especially when it impacts society.

And in the point of view of a lot of non-white people, we discuss our color as well as our race when it has to do with political issues. We see it as part of our identity. And that is something that the dominant culture does not understand because some people have not had to think about their race as much as non-white people do.

So have I but I concede that the multicultural; dynamic is far different in the US than in Aus.

It is. And it has to do with society and history. It is quite more complicated than in other places because many other cultures and races have come here over the years. And then, there are the indigenous populations and Black people who were brought over here as slaves. All of us have made different contributions in America. As a result, we have various views of how American society has treated us.

Persecution is persecution.. perhaps that is what I'm trying to get you to see rather than it being 'just about race'.

You're right. Not all events are about race. But there are some situations that are racially related. And white privilege is one of those occurrences that happen in society. And non-white people can definitely account for it by experiencing it on a daily basis. And non-white people are sensitive to these situations pretty much because they can tell stories of how they have had to deal with the larger institutional system where their race has been made a factor.

Before I go on, I thank you for having empathising with me about my experiences. I appreciate it.

I guess being black would have made you a more obvious target. Again I've had similar things happen.. where someone does something wrong and you get the blame and punnishment while they gloat about it.. or when someone hits you and you have a go back and get accused of being a trouble maker.

This has happened many times by people who don't "see" anything and refuse to make a full and fair accounting of the situation. I tend to think that this is similar to what I wrote in another thread called the "Good German" syndrome. People know that a wrong has been committed, but they are paralyzed to act on the welfare of those in need. And they continue to follow orders and perpetuate the system.

Do you know anything about where they came from [Sweden, Scotland, France etc] or do you just see them as 'white people'? Do you know anything about the varied cultures?

They came from Ireland, England, Germany, France, Russia, Spain, South Africa, etc. I see their color, if that's what you're asking. But, I also treat them accordingly with the customs of their country.

I know a little bit from the various countries that my family's friends and my friends came from. However, I've known more about English, French, Spanish, Russian and German culture and history because of my schooling.

Because most 'non whites' I meet do not consider one white woman as being an accurate reflection of an entire race.

I don't either. I know enough that people have their individual attributes. But, there's more to account for like heritage, upbringing, etc. And, then, there are people as groups. And I tend to argue that using groups when trying to deal with a larger social issue is fair game if used appropriately and not in malice.

So not judging the individual person by the race is a bad thing..?

I'm not sure what you mean here. Could you clarify this for me

Never said I didn't see skin colour Ceci [not sure what that even means]. I'm apparently a 'live wire' or 'eccentric'. My skin colour and gender is not relevent because my personality bucks any stereotype or archetype. People who don't know me.. well unfortuantly the stereotypes stand until they do. With bullies.. they're not interested in who I am anyway.

I think I understand what you're saying here. But, by all due respect, personality is quite different than human characteristics (skin color, eye color, etc.). I'm glad though that you are trying to be your own person. That is very important.

But, even you might understand that there are things that you as a Australian woman might experience in terms of race and gender that is unique. And those unique experiences set you apart from anyone else. That why in my point of view you just can't ignore gender or race. Or else, you'd be eliminating unique parts of yourself that make you distinctive from other people.

On the whole, though bullies aren't good in any stripe.

I don't like biggotry in any form.. and of course I've been accused of being a racist when it's not in my nature.. especially when it's by someone assaulting me for being white. Those kind of things, as you know, make it personal. I have a very stict code of ethics so I hate being accused of things I haven't done. I like things to be fair in life.

I don't like bigotry in any form as well. But, sometimes you've got to realize that it isn't as cut and dried as you make it out to be. And that's where different perspectives based on heritage and gender play a significant part. Because of my experiences, I know that society is on an unequal playing field because there are still disparities in the system. I have witnessed and experienced these disparities in which merits alone still did not prevent the racism taking place. In fact, true equality is a myth until justice is promoted for all.

Social situation [making friends] vs assumptions made about what I look like from a stupid punk standing on some train tracks with a rock in his hand. The first contact I had with him/them was the actual rocks making contact.

Well, the bullies that were throwing rocks at you were being stupid. Stupidity and violence goes all across the board. And in your situation, they were both. It should have never had happened. No one should have gone through what you and your friend have.

They seemed to think that what western media portrays is how western women are.

I think that they were being curious. And it was good you answered their questions and paid them the proper respect. That says a lot in my book.

Yes.. she is not hindu or buddhist.. I can't remember the name of her [family] religion atm [I wrote it down somewhere] but it's apparently the oldest and starts with 'Z' or something.She's a little on the outer herself as she refused an arranged marriage and did her own thing instead. She's also a bit of a hippy. Cool girl.

She sounds cool. She is trying to be her own person as you are. And that is important for not only everyone, but for young women especially.

No probs Ceci.. and thanks for sharing your experiences.

You're very welcome. I appreciate it.

White Privilege: Swimming in Racial Preference

While many whites seem to think the notion originated with affirmative action programs, intended to expand opportunities for historically marginalized people of color, racial preference actually has had a long and very white history.

Tim Wise, the author of this article, is on point here. I know of one member who believes this is true.

Affirmative action for whites was embodied in the abolition of European indentured servitude, which left black (and occasionally indigenous) slaves as the only unfree labor in the colonies that would become the U.S.

Affirmative action for whites was the essence of the 1790 Naturalization Act, which allowed virtually any European immigrant to become a full citizen, even while blacks, Asians and American Indians could not.

Affirmative action for whites was the guiding principle of segregation, Asian exclusion laws, and the theft of half of Mexico for the fulfillment of Manifest Destiny.

In recent history, affirmative action for whites motivated racially restrictive housing policies that helped 15 million white families procure homes with FHA loans from the 1930s to the '60s, while people of color were mostly excluded from the same programs.

Wise has a point here. Though these examples he notes are not AA by name, they show the undeniable reality of white privilege. In a way, he's right that these are examples of AA for whites.

In other words, it is hardly an exaggeration to say that white America is the biggest collective recipient of racial preference in the history of the cosmos. It has skewed our laws, shaped our public policy and helped create the glaring inequalities with which we still live.

How true, and how ironic that members of this group are usually the most critical of AA. Were it not for the nature of white privilege, this would actually be funny.

White families, on average, have a net worth that is 11 times the net worth of black families, according to a recent study; and this gap remains substantial even when only comparing families of like size, composition, education and income status.

11 times greater. Wow. That really is a god damned shame. And people say there's no privilege...:shk:

A full-time black male worker in 2003 makes less in real dollar terms than similar white men were earning in 1967. Such realities are not merely indicative of the disadvantages faced by blacks, but indeed are evidence of the preferences afforded whites — a demarcation of privilege that is the necessary flipside of discrimination.

Ridiculous. How ironic that black workers are making what white workers were during the CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT.:shk: And, Wise mentions something that is often not noticed; privilege indeed is the flipside of discrimination. So, how can one deny white privilege while conceding that discrimination still occurs?

Now, here comes the nail in the coffin:

Indeed, the value of preferences to whites over the years is so enormous that the current baby-boomer generation of whites is currently in the process of inheriting between $7 trillion and $10 trillion in assets from their parents and grandparents — property handed down by those who were able to accumulate assets at a time when people of color by and large could not.

To place this in the proper perspective, we should note that this amount of money is more than all the outstanding mortgage debt, all the credit card debt, all the savings account assets, all the money in IRAs and 401k retirement plans, all the annual profits for U.S. manufacturers, and our entire merchandise trade deficit combined.

THAT is white privilege at its finest (or dirtiest, depending on how you look at it). Being able to pass on mountains of assets through your family, gained largely by unfair access to resources. Unfair, meaning the whites who unfairly gained wealth, and the rest who were kept from gaining wealth. That spit is a tragedy, a real shame...:shk::shk: All that wealth, largely obtained through dirty tactics, with regards to access to resources.

Yet few whites have ever thought of our position as resulting from racial preferences. Indeed, we pride ourselves on our hard work and ambition, as if somehow we invented the concepts.

As if we have worked harder than the folks who were forced to pick cotton and build levies for free; harder than the Latino immigrants who spend 10 hours a day in fields picking strawberries or tomatoes; harder than the (mostly) women of color who clean hotel rooms or change bedpans in hospitals, or the (mostly) men of color who collect our garbage.

You said it all, Wise.

We strike the pose of self-sufficiency while ignoring the advantages we have been afforded in every realm of activity: housing, education, employment, criminal justice, politics, banking and business.

We ignore the fact that at almost every turn, our hard work has been met with access to an opportunity structure denied to millions of others. Privilege, to us, is like water to the fish: invisible precisely because we cannot imagine life without it.

Well...there you have it.

White preferences, the result of the normal workings of a racist society, can remain out of sight and out of mind, while the power of the state is turned against the paltry preferences meant to offset them.

No spit, Wise. I can't tell how many times I've seen this happen, especially recently.

Very telling is the oft-heard comment by whites, "If I had only been black I would have gotten into my first-choice college."

Such a statement not only ignores the fact that whites are more likely than members of any other group — even with affirmative action in place — to get into their first-choice school, but it also presumes, as anti-racist activist Paul Marcus explains, "that if these whites were black, everything else about their life would have remained the same."

In other words, that it would have made no negative difference as to where they went to school, what their family income was, or anything else.

Well done again, Wise. The quote from Marcus also speaks volumes.

The ability to believe that being black would have made no difference (other than a beneficial one when it came time for college), and that being white has made no positive difference, is rooted in privilege itself. The privilege that allows one to not have:

* to think about race on a daily basis;
* one's intelligence questioned by best-selling books;
* to worry about being viewed as a "out of place" when driving, shopping, buying a home, or for that matter, attending the University of Michigan.

So long as those privileges remain firmly in place and the preferential treatment that flows from those privileges continues to work to the benefit of whites, all talk of ending affirmative action is not only premature but a slap in the face to those who have fought, and died, for equal opportunity.

Way to close that, Wise. Way to close.

For the last few weeks I've been working with a few individuals whom I have a tremendous amount of respect for. We discuss issues every day and every day the discussions are getting better and better. It was made clear very quick that they know what they are talking about, which is why today came as a bit of an eye opener for me. In this post I'll be completely honest about my thoughts and opinions, as well as how today has had me rethink my stance. I'm not saying I've changed my mind on anything, but I feel that I need to rethink a few things before I immediately come to any conclusions.

The subject of "White Privilege" came up today, and I began with a few thoughts. Now being honest, the three of us agree on almost everything. We are passionate on our stances, and disagree on small things, but overall we agree on the large issues. Today was different. As soon as I finished, I waited for the gratuitous praise and a rebuttal in approval. Boy, was I shocked. The two of them quickly stood up and acknowledged that "White Privilege" does exist, and it is quite rampant. ...Come again? We chatted about this for about an hour, and afterwards I found myself in awe. It's not that I completely denied the existence of white privilege, I just felt it was blown out of proportion. Today, I'm not so sure. I'm not saying it isn't, but I'm not saying it is.

I went through a few sheets discussing the notion and I had a list of different day to day things that indicate that White Privilege does exist. I will list them all for the sake of discussion, and others can see what they think. There are quite a few, so you may want to clear your schedule.

For clarity, I am going to bold those that I agree with, italicize those that I disagree with, and do nothing to those that I'm uncertain of.

Members of both side of this topic, I look forward to your thoughts. I'm coming into this as of right now, with a clean slate. I hope others will take this on with no preconceived notions and take a moment to consider these.

Let's Go....

1. I can if I wish, arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time.
2. I can avoid spending time with people whom I was trained to mistrust and who have learned to mistrust my kind or me.
3. If I should need to move, I can be pretty sure of renting or purchasing housing in an area which I can afford and in which I would want to live.
4. I can be pretty sure that my neighbours in such a location will be neutral or pleasant to me.
5. I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured that I will not be followed or harassed.
6. I can turn on the television or open to the front page of the paper and see people of my race widely represented.
7. When I am told about our national heritage or about "civilization", I am shown that people of my color made it what it is.
8. I can be sure that my children will be given curricular materials that testify to the existence of their race.
9. I can be pretty sure of having my voice heard in a group in which I am the only member of my race.
10. I can be casual about whether or not to listen to another person's voice in a group in which he/she is the only member of his/her race.
11. I can go into a music shop and count on finding music of my race represented, into a supermarket and find the staple foods which fit my cultural traditions, into a hairdresser's shop and find someone who can cut my hair.
12. Whether I use checks, credit cards, or cash, I can count on my skin color not to work against the appearance of financial reliability.
13. I can arrange to protect my children most of the time from people who might not like them.
14. I do not have to educate my children to be aware of systemic racism for their own daily physical protection.
15. I can be pretty sure that my children's teachers and employers will tolerate them if they fit school and workplace norms; my chief worries about them do not concern others' attitudes toward their race.
16. I can talk with my mouth full and not have people put this down on my skin color.
17. I can swear, or dress in second hand clothes, or not answer letters, without having people attribute these choices to the bad morals, the poverty, or the illiteracy of my race.
18. I can speak in public to a powerful male group without putting my race on trial.
19. I can do well in a challenging situation without being a credit to my race. -- (Patronizing.. I agree with this one)
20. I am never asked to speak for all of the people of my racial group.
21. I can remain oblivious of the language and customs of persons of color who constitute the world's majority without feeling in my culture any penalty for such oblivion.
22. I can criticize our government and talk about how much I fear its policies and behaviour without being seen as a cultural outsider.
23. I can be pretty sure that if I ask to talk to the "person in charge", I will be facing a person of my own race.
24. If a traffic cop pulls me over or the IRS audits my tax return, I can be sure I haven't been singled out because of my race.
25. I can easily buy posters, post-cards, picture books, greeting cards, dolls, toys, and children's magazines featuring people of my race.
26. I can go home from most meetings of organizations I belong to feeling somewhat tied in, rather than isolated, out of place, outnumbered, unheard, held at a distance or feared.
27. I can be pretty sure that an argument with a colleague of another race is more likely to jeopardize his/her chances for advancement than to jeopardize mine.
28. I can be pretty sure that if I argue for the promotion of a person of another race, or a program centering on race, this is not likely to cost me heavily within my present setting, even if my colleagues disagree with me.
29. If I declare there is a racial issue at hand, or there isn't a racial issue at hand, my race will end me more credibility for either position than a person of color will have.
30. My culture gives me little fear about ignoring the perspectives and powers of people of other races.
31. I am not made acutely aware that my shape, bearing, or body odor will be taken as a reflection of my race.
32. I can worry about racism without being seen as self-interested or self-seeking. (I bemoan to say that I have to agree with this one)
33. I can take a job with an affirmative action employer without having my co-workers on the job suspect that I got the job because of my race.
34. If my day, week, or year is going badly, I need not ask for each negative episode or situation whether it had racial overtones.
35. I can be pretty sure of finding people who would be willing to talk with me and advise me about my next steps professionally.
36. I can think over many options, social, political, imaginative, or professional, without asking whether a person of my race would be accepted or allowed to do what I want to do.
37. I can be late to a meeting without having the lateness reflect on my race.
38. I can choose public accommodation without fearing that people of my race cannot get in or will be mistreated in the places that I have chosen.
39. I can be sure that if I need legal or medical help, my race will not work against me.
40. If I have low credibility as a leader, I can rest assure that my race is not the problem.
41. I can choose blemish color of bandages in "flesh" color and have them more or less match my skin.


There we have it. The List! I do not agree with all, and frankly I think some are actually blowing it out of proportion. But I can not help but consider a few. In all honesty, listening to some black people go on about racism, dominant culture, etc., did seem to come across as self-interested or self-seeking. So a few of these are finally blatantly obvious to me. Some I'm not so sure of, and others I would outright disagree with. But I feel that I've kept a blind eye to this for the duration of this thread, and I would like to give it a fair shake. The individuals whom I've chatted with today are very bright. They are both white, and they are both experienced directors of their organization. Both are responsible for hiring in their organizations, and both openly admit that they've worked along side others that had a problem with hiring people of a different race. Both of these women admitted to leaving positions due to this, and I've got no reason to doubt them.

I do ask that our members attempt to keep an open-mind and chat about the issues itself. Do not judge me or anyone else here for what we think, or may not think. I'm not certain what I think, but I am certain that I would like to give this a fair shake before I make any conclusions.

"White Privilege"... Does it Exist? Six hours ago I would of said no. Now, I'm not so certain. I think it does exist, but to what degree?

In regards to the list, remember that I've bolded those that I agree with and Italicized those that I disagree with. Maybe our members can share some thoughts and feelings on a few that they feel either definitely exist, or definitely do not exist.

Either way, I'm here. Eyes open, ears open, ready to listen and understand.

Off-Topic Posts, Personal Attacks, and Unnecessary Comments will not be tolerated!

Thank You.

I am going to take each point and give my view on it. Some of these are true, but I don't feel they're exclusive to whites.

1. I can if I wish, arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time.

Yes, and so can everyone else. And this would be the case of any race that was in the majority. It's not because we're white, but more because there are more white people than any other race in the US.

2. I can avoid spending time with people whom I was trained to mistrust and who have learned to mistrust my kind or me.

I can, and so can everyone. The problem here is that people are being trained to mistrust other people with a different skin color. That kind of training needs to be addressed and overcome.

3. If I should need to move, I can be pretty sure of renting or purchasing housing in an area which I can afford and in which I would want to live.

Yes, but I'm not convinced that anyone else can't. If you can afford a place, you can be pretty sure of renting or buying it.

4. I can be pretty sure that my neighbours in such a location will be neutral or pleasant to me.

If I were to move into a black neighborhood, I'm not at all sure I'd be treated neutrally or pleasantly.

5. I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured that I will not be followed or harassed.

I have been followed and suspected.

6. I can turn on the television or open to the front page of the paper and see people of my race widely represented.

I see people of all races represented.

7. When I am told about our national heritage or about "civilization", I am shown that people of my color made it what it is.

Yes, but I know that's not the entire story. Whatever I'm told, I know there's more to it than that.

8. I can be sure that my children will be given curricular materials that testify to the existence of their race.

I dont even understand this one. Children learn about people of all races. Even I did when I went to school, oh, those many years ago, I learned about other races.

9. I can be pretty sure of having my voice heard in a group in which I am the only member of my race.

I disagree with this one.

10. I can be casual about whether or not to listen to another person's voice in a group in which he/she is the only member of his/her race.

No freaking way. I suppose I could be casual about listening to anyone I choose, but it wouldn't be based on their race.

11. I can go into a music shop and count on finding music of my race represented, into a supermarket and find the staple foods which fit my cultural traditions, into a hairdresser's shop and find someone who can cut my hair.

Not a white privilege. Anyone can do this.

12. Whether I use checks, credit cards, or cash, I can count on my skin color not to work against the appearance of financial reliability.

Agreed. But I can't count on them not judging me for other reasons.

13. I can arrange to protect my children most of the time from people who might not like them.

I disagree with this one. Once our children go out into the world (to school) anyone could decide not to like them.

14. I do not have to educate my children to be aware of systemic racism for their own daily physical protection.

Nobody does.

15. I can be pretty sure that my children's teachers and employers will tolerate them if they fit school and workplace norms; my chief worries about them do not concern others' attitudes toward their race.

True.

16. I can talk with my mouth full and not have people put this down on my skin color.

Well, they wouldn't attribute it to my skin color, but to something else. I don't have the privilege of talking with my mouth full without retribution.

17. I can swear, or dress in second hand clothes, or not answer letters, without having people attribute these choices to the bad morals, the poverty, or the illiteracy of my race.

Again, they wouldn't attribute it to my race, but something. It wouldn't be overlooked.

18. I can speak in public to a powerful male group without putting my race on trial.

I don't think this is a white privilege.

A lot of these questions are like "I can do this without having people rag on me for my race." Well, perhaps, but they would rag on me for my gender or my education or my speaking ability or something, so I don't see these issues as specifically "white privilege"...

19. I can do well in a challenging situation without being a credit to my race.

I agree with this one. But I'll be told I'm a credit to my gender. Same thing.

20. I am never asked to speak for all of the people of my racial group.

Totally disagree. I have been asked to speak for my race.

21. I can remain oblivious of the language and customs of persons of color who constitute the world's majority without feeling in my culture any penalty for such oblivion.

If I lived in the world, I couldn't. I live in the US where people of color are the minority, so yes, I can.

22. I can criticize our government and talk about how much I fear its policies and behaviour without being seen as a cultural outsider.

Disagree. Anyone can do this without being seen as a cultural outsider.

23. I can be pretty sure that if I ask to talk to the "person in charge", I will be facing a person of my own race.

Nope. Not where I live.

24. If a traffic cop pulls me over or the IRS audits my tax return, I can be sure I haven't been singled out because of my race.

Nope. Not where I live.

25. I can easily buy posters, post-cards, picture books, greeting cards, dolls, toys, and children's magazines featuring people of my race.

Anyone can.

26. I can go home from most meetings of organizations I belong to feeling somewhat tied in, rather than isolated, out of place, outnumbered, unheard, held at a distance or feared.

Anyone can IF THEY WANT TO.

27. I can be pretty sure that an argument with a colleague of another race is more likely to jeopardize his/her chances for advancement than to jeopardize mine.

I don't agree.

28. I can be pretty sure that if I argue for the promotion of a person of another race, or a program centering on race, this is not likely to cost me heavily within my present setting, even if my colleagues disagree with me.

I think anyone can do that.

29. If I declare there is a racial issue at hand, or there isn't a racial issue at hand, my race will lend me more credibility for either position than a person of color will have.

I disagree.

30. My culture gives me little fear about ignoring the perspectives and powers of people of other races.

True. But there are things to fear of other races. Maybe not perspectives and power, but I honestly have fear about how black people are taught to hate white people. I don't know if the next black person I meat is going to hate me for my skin color or not.

31. I am not made acutely aware that my shape, bearing, or body odor will be taken as a reflection of my race.

Totally disagree. Try being a white American today in the world.

32. I can worry about racism without being seen as self-interested or self-seeking.

I agree.

33. I can take a job with an affirmative action employer without having my co-workers on the job suspect that I got the job because of my race.

Or gender? I wouldn't be suspected because of my race, but perhaps because of my gender, especially the field I was in.

34. If my day, week, or year is going badly, I need not ask for each negative episode or situation whether it had racial overtones.

Some people are going to find racial overtones is everything they see. I don't need to look for them, no, but neither does anyone else.

35. I can be pretty sure of finding people who would be willing to talk with me and advise me about my next steps professionally.

Anyone can.

36. I can think over many options, social, political, imaginative, or professional, without asking whether a person of my race would be accepted or allowed to do what I want to do.

BS. Disagree.

37. I can be late to a meeting without having the lateness reflect on my race.

Again, it might not reflect on my race, but it would reflect on me. It would reflect on something about me. It might be my race depending on the situation.

38. I can choose public accommodation without fearing that people of my race cannot get in or will be mistreated in the places that I have chosen.

So can anyone.

39. I can be sure that if I need legal or medical help, my race will not work against me.

If you have money, your race will not work against you. Period. Your money is green and that's the only color that's important.

40. If I have low credibility as a leader, I can rest assure that my race is not the problem.

Disagree. Anyone can rest assured that their race is not the problem. Most likely, if your credibility is low, you are a bad leader.

41. I can choose blemish color of bandages in "flesh" color and have them more or less match my skin.

Yes. This is true. Something should be done about this.
Black Bandaids

Chissler (and only Chissler), thank you for "discovering" white privilege is far deeper than you have made it. I'm sorry that you had to be shocked. But, people of color have seen this for nearly all of their lives and had people from the dominant culture flaunt this in their faces. Or else, be told that it "doesn't exist" and have the person from the dominant culture manipulate their way out of discussing the truth.

You at least faced it head on. I am glad for that.

I think white people have to stop trying to "equate" experiences with people of color. They also have to stop trying to dismiss our experiences. And then, they have to truly listen to people of color and what they are saying--especially when they talk about white privilege. Don't correct us. Do not lie to us and say that it doesn't exist. And please, for the love of God, don't say that it is far better in society than it already is.

They must please face the truth as it is. No more linguistic gymnastics.

I think that until one is in blackface, they will never know the extent of white privilege and what it means in society. This is sad to say, but it's true. Put a little dark make up on your face, perm your hair and then go about in the world. Come back and go over the white privilege list once again while in blackface. I would love to hear your opinon then. You'd be bolding each and every one.

Seriously.

(There had been white students who were asked what would it take for them go into blackface for a month. They bargained it down to a week for about $50 million dollars. One of the kids actually did it [without receiving the money] and could not last a couple of days. Does that tell you something? )




[edit on 27-3-2007 by ceci2006]

Well, chissler...

I am quite surprised. I won't razz you for only seeing this when white people told you, but you know what I'm thinking in that respect. Honestly, I'd like to speak on your epiphany, so to speak, but I don't want to waste a lot of words.

Then again, you're a mod, so maybe you CAN see what I'm posting. But, I ain't gonna answer your post until I'm sure you'll see my words.

I look forward to addressing your points, btw.

Well, I'm not here to "chum" it up with anybody because I feel the issue is more important. I think we all know how this forum has spun out of control recently and we've had two separate sides continuously bickering back and forth. I've not crossed the fence, but I have perched my backside up on the fence to take a second look. Reading BH's post, I agree with much of what she says. I think a lot of this can be contributed to our socio-economic status, and whites can be put through the same ordeals. But at the same time, I do believe that blacks are getting treated differently. In myself, I am trying to acknowledge my own thoughts and feelings.

I'll tell you an experience from yesterday that left me ashamed of myself.

I was out on the sidewalk for a moment about to walk into my place, and a native woman was in an old beater truck, with a smoke hanging from her lip, making a turn at the corner, doing about 20-30km/hour over the speed limit. My immediate reaction was... "Natives". It wasn't two seconds later I stopped walking and just thought for a moment. If she had of been white, would I of thought negatively as well? The gods honest truth... Yes I would have. But I would not of said... Whites! I would of said women, or some other term to indicate her socio-economic status. That is completely wrong, I know, but in those first seconds the mind just reacts.

And yes, this "epiphany" about White Privilege came to me after hearing this from two white people. Is that a positive, or a negative? Personally, I view it as a positive.

32. I can worry about racism without being seen as self-interested or self-seeking.

In all honesty, and I do apologize, the fact that you guys are black, well it impacted how I viewed what you said. Again, I do apologize. But I did see it as self-interested and self-seeking. After hearing the same words being spoke by a highly respected colleague, who is white, I had to think to myself that maybe I overlooked this. My biggest response to this was that it was not evident in my area. After yesterday, I'm not so sure if that is true. I know I have not come across it, but to say it does not exist at all, that would not be justified.

My co-worker that was talking about it yesterday said that a few years ago, she looked at white privilege and laughed. Not a chance did it exist she said. But she took some diversity training and a few other courses that pertained to this, and she is singing a different tune.

What do I think? I don't know. I'm in a state of confusion.

But I know I am going to read, read, read, and listen, listen listen. Then hopefully something will come clear to me and I can say decisively what I Think. I doubt it will come, as I already believe this does exist. I'm just not sure to what extent. What is WP? What is an exaggeration of WP? Is there taking it too far?

Is this a victimization of one's self? Or is this standing up for one's self?



[edit on 3/28/2007 by chissler]

Originally posted by chissler
I already believe this does exist. I'm just not sure to what extent. What is WP? What is an exaggeration of WP? Is there taking it too far?

These are great and interesting question! I can't answer them for myself completely, because so much depends on making generalizations and on several other factors. Among others, physical location in the US and class are also factors. And yes, there is white privilege, and when we extract everything else, but color, it's easy to see that a privilege exists. But in my opinion, it's not that simple.

For example, I talked about it in my bolded observation in my previous post:

A lot of these questions are like "I can do this without having people rag on me for my race." Well, perhaps, but they would rag on me for my gender or my education or my speaking ability or something, so I don't see these issues as specifically "white privilege"...

If you strip away all other factors except for race, then yes, we can see a racial privilege in there... But that's not looking at the whole picture. You can pick ANY group of people who experience discrimination in the US today and strip away all other factors and then see a privilege of the other people...

Heterosexual privilege
Male privilege
Education privilege
Thin privilege
Wealth privilege
Able-bodied privilege
Beauty privilege
White privilege
Health privilege

It's quite a list. And it's imcomplete. And taken individually any group opposite of these "privileged" people have an issue to deal with in life. But when you consider how few of us are healthy, white, beautiful, able-bodied, wealthy, thin, educated, male and heterosexual, that actually is a very small number of "privileged" people.

(And today, there is also discrimination against white men for being the group that supposedly isn't discriminated against!)

And it's definitely not right that some people have privilege over others, but it's R-E-A-L-I-T-Y. It's life. And almost ALL of us have to deal with being in a non-privileged group. I'm in several.

And there are people of color who are beautiful, thin, educated, healthy, heterosexual and able-bodied (for example) who are entirely focused on their race and the privilege that's denied them because of that one factor. And that's where your next question comes in...

Is this a victimization of one's self? Or is this standing up for one's self?

And I think the answer to both can be yes. The person above who is so focused on race and doesn't realize, appreciate and acknowledge the other privileges they have, can be, in my opinion, victimizing themselves.

And I would say the same for a woman (another non-privileged group) who focuses on the treatment of women as "unfair", and when they don't get what they want in life (life being unfair and all), they say it's because they're a woman. Male privilege exists (as does white privilege) but to use it as the reason for everything bad that happens in one's life is (IMO) being a victim.

Sometimes I wonder if some black people are so focused on their race, so "race-centric" that they don't have the ability to see the whole picture. Their focus on the unfairness of it all actually keeps them from moving forward and breaking out of the bonds inherent in being a person of color in the US today.

We could make a list like the 41 above about any of these non-privileged groups and it would be valid. Let's look at some for heterosexual privilege (and some I didn't have to change the words at all)...

Heterosexual privilege:

- I can avoid spending time with homosexual people.
- When I am told about our national heritage or about "civilization", I am shown that people of my sexual orientation made it what it is.
- I can be sure that my children will be given curricular materials that testify to the existence of their parents' sexual orientation.
- I can arrange to protect my children most of the time from people who might not like them because of my sexual orientation.
- I can be pretty sure that my children's teachers and employers will tolerate them if they fit school and workplace norms; my chief worries about them do not concern others' attitudes toward their parents' sexual orientation.
- I can talk with my mouth full and not have people put this down on my sexual orientation.
- I can speak in public to a powerful male group without putting my sexual orientation on trial.
- I am never asked to speak for all of the people of my sexual orientation group.
- I can remain oblivious of the language and customs of homosexuals without feeling in my culture any penalty for such oblivion.
- I can criticize our government and talk about how much I fear its policies and behaviour without being seen as a cultural outsider.
- I can be pretty sure that if I ask to talk to the "person in charge", I will be facing a person of my own sexual orientation.
- I can easily buy posters, post-cards, picture books, greeting cards, dolls, toys, and children's magazines featuring people of my sexual orientation.
- I can think over many options, social, political, imaginative, or professional, without asking whether a person of my sexual orientation would be accepted or allowed to do what I want to do.
- I can choose public accommodation without fearing that people of my sexual orientation cannot get in or will be mistreated in the places that I have chosen.
- I can be sure that if I need legal or medical help, my sexual orientation will not work against me.
- If I have low credibility as a leader, I can rest assure that my sexual orientation is not the problem.

And I'm sure there are LOTS more that can be added that do not apply to the White Privilege list.

Please understand, I'm not minimizing or dismissing white privilege. I'm saying it's not the only privilege in the book. I'm saying we have to look at the whole picture to get an accurate idea of what people face in the US today. I'm not denying very real white privilege.

Narrowing the focus to race, it's true that generally, blacks (and other people of color) are treated differently than whites in the US today.

Regarding standing up for one's self, I just heard this story this morning.

Shaquanda Cotton

Shaquanda was given an “indeterminate sentence” in March 2006 after a jury found that she assaulted a public servant. Under the sentence, handed down by Lamar County Judge Chuck Superville, Shaquanda could be locked up for up to seven years, until she turns 21. Under Texas Youth Commission laws, she would have to admit guilt to get consideration for early probation.
...
But just three months before her sentence, Superville sentenced a 14-year-old white girl to probation after she was found guilty of arson after burning her family’s house down, according to an article published in The Chicago Tribune.
...
Prior to Shaquanda’s incident with the hall monitor, a teacher’s aide, Shaquanda’s mother had filed complaints of discrimination against the Paris Independent School District and had led protest marches at the high school.

I believe these people in Paris, TX have to stand up for this girl and her family. I believe we all do. It's clear that she's being treated differently and knowing what I know about the situation (which admittedly isn't much) I'd guess it's because of her race. And what's most important to me here is that the LAW is treating her differently. If black people can't count on being treated equally under the law, then there's a real problem.

Edited so as not to sound like uneducated white trash.


[edit on 28-3-2007 by Benevolent Heretic]

Originally quoted by Chissler
I've not crossed the fence, but I have perched my backside up on the fence to take a second look.

I will be back to answer your comments in full, but I would like to say that you have taken a very important first step here in trying to understand the problem of White privilege. That is far better than trying to deny it or talk your way around it (which other posters have done without truly dealing with the problem before hand).

However, with the thought that Black folks are "self-serving" about this, you have to think about it the other way around. Whites are "self-serving" for being tricked into denying that it doesn't happen. Whites are also "self-serving" for discounting the experiences of others who are outside their racial category. In fact, it is rather arrogant to say that Black people are self-serving in this. It is also arrogant to note that some of the white privileges are BS to say the least.

Hell. How would you know--if you aren't a person of color? In this thread, some members of color have spoken on this aspect repeatedly. We've posted evidence. We've tried to answer questions.

And the angriest and rudest answers have come from other White people. And they don't even think about what they are saying to a person of color. Why is that?

And still, the hits keep on coming. You're "cautious" about white privilege. Now, this is a true "irony".

At least one thing has happened that I've suggested before. White people have begun to talk about this. And thankfully, another white person began to talk with you, Chissler, about the disparities in society and how white privilege works. You may not be able to empathize truly with the disparities against people of color in society. But, you are learnng to connect with us through the identification of our issues. That is far more than others have done. Thank you.



[edit on 28-3-2007 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by ceci2006
Whites are "self-serving" for being tricked into denying that it doesn't happen.

Arrogant? Or in pursuit of justice? Would you rather I simply accepted this without discussing, thinking, talking, listening, etc., endlessly on the subject? Anything short would come across as gratuitous in my opinion, which would be nothing more than patronizing.

And believe me, many of us are manipulated, if this is the case. But if we are manipulated into believing it does not exist, how does that make me self-serving? Wouldn't that make me a victim in all of this as well?

Originally posted by ceci2006
In this thread, three people of color have spoken on this aspect repeatedly. We've posted evidence. We've tried to answer questions.

And several white members have posted in opposition. Both stances have merit. A conclusion is certainly left to interpretation.

Originally posted by ceci2006
And the angriest and rudest answers have come from other White people. And they don't even think about what they are saying to a person of color. Why is that?

This is what I don't want. Let's discuss the issue rather than pointing fingers.

Originally posted by ceci2006
And still, the hits keep on coming. You're "cautious" about white privilege. Now, this is a true "irony".

Excuse me? I'm actually making an effort to understand here, and are you actually criticizing me for being cautious?

Originally posted by ceci2006
That is far more than others have done.

I disagree. I believe that this is up for the individual to interpret. If members like BH, semper, etc., look at this and believe it does not exist, well than that is their choice to make. I haven't done anything they haven't. Rather than be decisive, I've simply found myself confused. Just because I may be in agreement, that doesn't really mean I've done anything "extra".

--

As BH has said, every role and label we inhabit is going to come with it's advantages and disadvantages. Maybe we are all a victim here.

[edit on 3/28/2007 by chissler]

Originally posted by chissler
If members like BH, semper, etc., look at this and believe it does not exist, well than that is their choice to make.

Just to clarify, I have NEVER said it does not exist. Never. In fact, I have acknowledged its existence.

From my first post in this thread:

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I (along with several others in this thread) agree that white privilege exists.

Originally posted by chissler

Arrogant? Or in pursuit of justice? Would you rather I simply accepted this without discussing, thinking, talking, listening, etc., endlessly on the subject?

You did before. You didn't contribute much on this topic except "play the referee" instead of actually listening to what has been said. That is rather arrogant.

Anything short would come across as gratuitous in my opinion, which would be nothing more than patronizing.

Did you actually read your previous comments in other areas of this topic? Your words are quite patronizing. I'm sorry to offend you, but that is how I've taken your replies.

And believe me, many of us are manipulated, if this is the case. But if we are manipulated into believing it does not exist, how does that make me self-serving? Wouldn't that make me a victim in all of this as well?

You should read BH's thread on the "victim mindset". I loathe to promote her thread, but maybe you need a lesson in the dominant culture's use of "anti-victimist" language.

And several white members have posted in opposition. Both stances have merit. A conclusion is certainly left to interpretation.

Duly noted.

This is what I don't want. Let's discuss the issue rather than pointing fingers.

You don't have to worry about the people of color here. You have to worry about white people doing this. I think that's who you were trying to aim this admonition towards, were you not?

To make it clear, I don't think myself or Truthseeka had the aim of having conflict over this topic. But, really, which group of people started out with guns blazing to shoot the topic down?

Answer this question without any presumption about "pointing fingers".

Excuse me? I'm actually making an effort to understand here, and are you actually criticizing me for being cautious?

Yes. That's not being open-minded. You're still treating what we're saying in an accusatory tone.

And you are not being excused from this.

I disagree. I believe that this is up for the individual to interpret. If members like BH, semper, etc., look at this and believe it does not exist, well than[quo that is their choice to make. I haven't done anything they haven't. Rather than be decisive, I've simply found myself confused. Just because I may be in agreement, that doesn't really mean I've done anything "extra".

You have. Not many white people are brave enough to discuss white privilege. So far, Duzey and shooterbrody were very open to discussing it. Others have tried to deny it or vent their anger toward people of color. I'm not so sure if you're doing the same.

--

As BH has said, every role and label we inhabit is going to come with it's advantages and disadvantages. Maybe we are all a victim here.

It is about white privilege. And we're discussing this phenomenon with you now.

But again, refer to my statement above on the aspect of "anti-victimist" language.



[edit on 28-3-2007 by ceci2006]

All right, chissler. Here we go.

Originally posted by chissler
I went through a few sheets discussing the notion and I had a list of different day to day things that indicate that White Privilege does exist. I will list them all for the sake of discussion, and others can see what they think. There are quite a few, so you may want to clear your schedule.

Funny, you could have checked that list out a long time ago when I posted it. Sure, that was pages ago, but still...

As for your points, this is what I'm going to do. For the ones you agree with, I ask why do you now agree with them? For the ones you are unsure on, I'll leave alone. For the ones you disagree on, I'll be running my mouth about them (hell, you knew that was coming). Aight, then...

6. I can turn on the television or open to the front page of the paper and see people of my race widely represented.

Are you serious? Try this: go through all your channels on your TV and see if this is true for you or not. Really. And, next time you're shopping, and you're waiting in the checkout line, and you're looking at those pretty women on the magazines , see how many of them are representatives of your race.

9. I can be pretty sure of having my voice heard in a group in which I am the only member of my race.

Ok...I'll have to concede that one. I can see that this is not solely for white people. BUT, that doesn't mean it's not true; it's just not exclusive to WP, is all.

11. I can go into a music shop and count on finding music of my race represented, into a supermarket and find the staple foods which fit my cultural traditions, into a hairdresser's shop and find someone who can cut my hair.

Come on . You know full well that if you go into a smaller music store than Best Buy or something, you will be ASSURED to see "white" music represented. Same thing with the store; they don't have "ethnic aisles" for no reason. As for hair, COME ON. I have to go clean across town to the hood to get a haircut. If you were here, you could go down the street.


16. I can talk with my mouth full and not have people put this down on my skin color.

So, do you mean that someone will say "look at him, chewing like he has no manners; just like a white person" if you do this? Be real, now.

17. I can swear, or dress in second hand clothes, or not answer letters, without having people attribute these choices to the bad morals, the poverty, or the illiteracy of my race.

Same thing. If you wear Goodwill clothes, people are going to say "just like a honky, look at those cheap ass clothes?" Or, if you don't answer letters, they're going to say "that rude bastard; you KNOW that's because those white people have bad morals?" Did you have a straight face when you disagreed with these 2?

18. I can speak in public to a powerful male group without putting my race on trial.

So, people won't be like, "he speaks SO WELL for a white man" if you do great? Or, "listen to him, babbling like an ape. Typical honky," if you mangle some words?

22. I can criticize our government and talk about how much I fear its policies and behaviour without being seen as a cultural outsider.

Alright, here's another one for you. With the rabid nationalism rampant now, ANYONE, regardless of race, who criticizes the US govt hates America, is a liberal, or is with Al-CIAda...er, Al-Qaeda.

24. If a traffic cop pulls me over or the IRS audits my tax return, I can be sure I haven't been singled out because of my race.

Ok...maybe with the IRS, you get another one. But, are you SERIOUS about the laws? Really; you HAVE to have been laughing on this one. Well, maybe most of us are unaware of DWW yet...

25. I can easily buy posters, post-cards, picture books, greeting cards, dolls, toys, and children's magazines featuring people of my race.

So...you have trouble finding these items depicting white people? Come ON....

26. I can go home from most meetings of organizations I belong to feeling somewhat tied in, rather than isolated, out of place, outnumbered, unheard, held at a distance or feared.

Ok, I agree, ONLY if the organizations are mostly represented by your demographic. In a mixed setting, it's a different story...

35. I can be pretty sure of finding people who would be willing to talk with me and advise me about my next steps professionally.

So...you agree that most of the people in charge are white, but you disagree that you can get professional advice. Kinda contradictory...

37. I can be late to a meeting without having the lateness reflect on my race.

So...if you are late to a meeting, the people will tell you to come on time, NOT WPT (white people time)?

39. I can be sure that if I need legal or medical help, my race will not work against me.

So, there's a shortage of white doctors and lawyers? Or, is the criminal justice system biased against whites? (hey, I had to laugh at that)

40. If I have low credibility as a leader, I can rest assure that my race is not the problem.

So...people say that the reason Prez Bush is a screw up is because he's white? Come on now...

In all honesty, listening to some black people go on about racism, dominant culture, etc., did seem to come across as self-interested or self-seeking. So a few of these are finally blatantly obvious to me. Some I'm not so sure of, and others I would outright disagree with.

You DO realize that a white person made this list? And, I'm NOT surprised that you think we (black posters) are being self-serving with our views on this topic. I'd tell you that's a part of white privilege, but you'll probably figure that out eventually. Now for your next comment...

Originally posted by chissler
I'm not saying I've changed my mind on anything, but I feel that I need to rethink a few things before I immediately come to any conclusions.

Chissler, I am so happy to 'hear' this!

The hardest part of this conversation, for me, at least, is patience. I can't understand how fully grown adults who consider themselves.. you know, "knowledgeable" of their worlds, have never even heard of the term 'WP.' Then, those same people, who didn't even know what it was, have the audacity attempt to debate the people who are knowledgeable.

I just can't wrap my mind around that degree of... obliviousness.

So, I'm glad to hear that you have taken your first steps toward denying ignorance on this topic: seeing how it works in RL. That just re-affirms what I already thought of you.

As soon as I finished, I waited for the gratuitous praise and a rebuttal in approval. Boy, was I shocked. The two of them quickly stood up and acknowledged that "White Privilege" does exist, and it is quite rampant. ...Come again?

For the sake of anthropological study (and a smidgen of nosiness), I have to ask, how did that conversation go? As a black woman, I don't get many opportunities to hear white people talk among themselves, especially about race. Please share.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
And there are people of color who are beautiful, thin, educated, healthy, heterosexual and able-bodied (for example) who are entirely focused on their race and the privilege that's denied them because of that one factor.

BH, you're looking at it wrong. In an extremely round-about way, you've done nothing but reiterate the 'blacks who talk about racism are self-serving' thing. (In reality, the truly self-serving are those black people who take their degrees and go on to bigger and better things with nary a look back to the ghetto.)

Let me explain something to you: In a community, what happens to one of us happens to all of us.

It's not about me, personally. It doesn't have to be. We are the sum of our parts, so when black men earn substantially less than white men for the same job, my community becomes poorer. That affects property taxes. That affects increases or decreases in property crimes. That affects us all.

So, I ask you, BH, should I not care? Should I not be involved, because I'm educated enough and thin enough and whatever enough to have that choice?

What kind of person would that make me? :shk: