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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Just to clarify, I have NEVER said it does not exist. Never. In fact, I have acknowledged its existence.
Originally posted by Ceci2006
You did before. You didn't contribute much on this topic except "play the referee" instead of actually listening to what has been said. That is rather arrogant.
Originally posted by Ceci2006
That's not being open-minded.
Originally posted by Ceci2006
You're still treating what we're saying in an accusatory tone.
And you are not being excused from this.
Originally posted by Ceci2006
You have. Not many white people are brave enough to discuss white privilege. So far, Duzey and shooterbrody were very open to discussing it. Others have tried to deny it or vent their anger toward people of color. I'm not so sure if you're doing the same.
Originally posted by Ceci2006
But, really, which group of people started out with guns blazing to shoot the topic down?
Originally posted by chissler
I was out on the sidewalk for a moment about to walk into my place, and a native woman was in an old beater truck, with a smoke hanging from her lip, making a turn at the corner, doing about 20-30km/hour over the speed limit. My immediate reaction was... "Natives". It wasn't two seconds later I stopped walking and just thought for a moment. If she had of been white, would I of thought negatively as well? The gods honest truth... Yes I would have. But I would not of said... Whites! I would of said women, or some other term to indicate her socio-economic status. That is completely wrong, I know, but in those first seconds the mind just reacts.
And yes, this "epiphany" about White Privilege came to me after hearing this from two white people. Is that a positive, or a negative? Personally, I view it as a positive.
In all honesty, and I do apologize, the fact that you guys are black, well it impacted how I viewed what you said. Again, I do apologize. But I did see it as self-interested and self-seeking. After hearing the same words being spoke by a highly respected colleague, who is white, I had to think to myself that maybe I overlooked this. My biggest response to this was that it was not evident in my area. After yesterday, I'm not so sure if that is true. I know I have not come across it, but to say it does not exist at all, that would not be justified.
What do I think? I don't know. I'm in a state of confusion.
Originally posted by chissler
Are you capable of actually discussing the content here? Or do you have some quota where you need to take so many jabs before hitting the post reply button?
I will politely ignore any further "jabs" that you attempt
Originally posted by HarlemHottie
BH, you're looking at it wrong. In an extremely round-about way, you've done nothing but reiterate the 'blacks who talk about racism are self-serving' thing.
(In reality, the truly self-serving are those black people who take their degrees and go on to bigger and better things with nary a look back to the ghetto.)
It's not about me, personally. It doesn't have to be. We are the sum of our parts, so when black men earn substantially less than white men for the same job, my community becomes poorer. That affects property taxes. That affects increases or decreases in property crimes. That affects us all.
So, I ask you, BH, should I not care? Should I not be involved, because I'm educated enough and thin enough and whatever enough to have that choice?
Which demonstrates another white privilege. Since when has anyone from the dominant culture have the right to say who is using their race as a crutch and whether anyone is a victim or not? That is the one thing that I cannot understand.
And do people of color have the right to think and say that white people are using their race as a crutch if white people get unearned benefits from white privilege?
Or does white privilege give white people the freedom and entitlement not to think about how their words affect others--especially when they are people of color?
Originally posted by truthseeka
I don't mean to cap on you, but this is a PRIME example of white privilege. The FIRST thought to your head was "she's breaking the law because of her race." And, you admit that if this were a white woman, you would NOT have attributed this to race.
Originally posted by truthseeka
Do you see how that shows how white people do NOT have their screw ups attributed to an innate flaw in their ENTIRE race? Do you see how, if this were a white woman, her race COULD NOT have been the reason for her speeding? Like I said, I ain't trying to spit on you, I'm just pointing this out.
Originally posted by truthseeka
Again, I'm not trying to call you out, but you basically have said that you value the words of white people more than the words of black people.
Originally posted by truthseeka
I knew there was a reason some whites in here weren't hearing me, despite my posting source after source to back my statements. Now that you admitted these efforts I made meant spit to you compared to the words of your white colleagues, I'm wondering if my sources were mostly ignored because a black man (me) posted them...
Originally posted by truthseeka
Again, I'm not dogging you; actually, I'm thanking you for further validating white privilege.
Originally posted by truthseeka
Well...I can accept your apology for this. But, I STILL doubt that you will put much value on whatever I say in here, ESPECIALLY with regards to the words of a white person. I won't diss you for that, but that's going to be in my head whenever I'm involved in a discussion with you, regardless of the context the discussion is in.
Originally posted by HarlemHottie
For the sake of anthropological study (and a smidgen of nosiness), I have to ask, how did that conversation go? As a black woman, I don't get many opportunities to hear white people talk among themselves, especially about race. Please share.
Originally posted by chissler
Not race, but something. As whites are not a visible minority, I would of not contributed this to race. But the so-called "indicators" of socio-economic status would of been in the cross-hairs. Honestly, I see no difference. If I judge you on being black, or judge someone else for being poor, I think both are disgusting and have no place.
I hear you, and I agree. I do not try to hide the fact that my post reinforced white privilege. But understand that I am trying to overcome it, and I am ashamed for my immediate response.
Yes, my words can be construed in that manner. But it is not what I am referring too. In this situation, with what we've all been through, I am going to be honest in saying that it was eye opening to hear two white women talk about how overt white privilege is, even in our own community. As wrong as it may be, I think you can understand where I am coming from. If I start to complain about how bad it is to be white, that is not going to carry much weight with you. But if some black individuals stepped up to you and said, you know what, it's not all it's cracked up to be. Grant it, that is a ridiculous analogy. But I hope you can see what I am getting at. It carried more weight in the fact that it was from an individual that I have a lot of respect for.
Not ignored. Not ignored in the least. I hope you do believe me. Because even though I was not posting frequently, I was reading. But the problem was, for every link you posted, a white member posted one in opposition. It was left for interpretation. Call it ignorance, pig headed, whatever, I'm speaking the truth as I see it.
I take no offense. Frankly, I don't think you've ever offended me in the past. I hope you and I can carry a civil discussion on this with the petty bickering put aside.
Now you see, I completely disagree with that. Yes, a white person's thoughts and opinions had a lot of impact on me. But here is the thing, it did not impact me because she was white. It impacted me because I respect her. I respect you, I respect Ceci, I respect BH, I respect semperfortis, and I respect basically every other member here. But I do not know you. Hearing these words from someone I know in real life, well that carries a lot more weight.
See where I am coming from?
Not because shes white. Because I respect her.
You're right; shooter rebutted quite a few of my sources. But understand, NO ONE said a thing about the stuff on racial profiling or the gap in white-black men's salaries, as it pertained to the articles. I chalked that up to a failure to poo poo WP in these cases. But, I can see where you're on the fence with the other issues.
Originally posted by chissler
I went through a few sheets discussing the notion and I had a list of different day to day things that indicate that White Privilege does exist. I will list them all for the sake of discussion, and others can see what they think.
6. I can turn on the television or open to the front page of the paper and see people of my race widely represented.
9. I can be pretty sure of having my voice heard in a group in which I am the only member of my race.
11. I can go into a music shop and count on finding music of my race represented, into a supermarket and find the staple foods which fit my cultural traditions, into a hairdresser's shop and find someone who can cut my hair.
16. I can talk with my mouth full and not have people put this down on my skin color.
17. I can swear, or dress in second hand clothes, or not answer letters, without having people attribute these choices to the bad morals, the poverty, or the illiteracy of my race.
18. I can speak in public to a powerful male group without putting my race on trial.
22. I can criticize our government and talk about how much I fear its policies and behaviour without being seen as a cultural outsider.
24. If a traffic cop pulls me over or the IRS audits my tax return, I can be sure I haven't been singled out because of my race.
25. I can easily buy posters, post-cards, picture books, greeting cards, dolls, toys, and children's magazines featuring people of my race.
26. I can go home from most meetings of organizations I belong to feeling somewhat tied in, rather than isolated, out of place, outnumbered, unheard, held at a distance or feared.
35. I can be pretty sure of finding people who would be willing to talk with me and advise me about my next steps professionally.
37. I can be late to a meeting without having the lateness reflect on my race.
39. I can be sure that if I need legal or medical help, my race will not work against me.
40. If I have low credibility as a leader, I can rest assure that my race is not the problem.
Originally posted by shooterbrody
The type of racial profiling you listed is wrong and there is no excuse for it. However,and Truth I know how you feel about law enforcement, how are the police supposed to catch a suspect if there is no profiling? For example, a short blonde white male robs a bank shouldn't the police look for short blonde white males? What do you think?
As to the salaries, I read your sources and you know how I feel about statistical studies. I currently work a job which is union protected. We all make the same no matter what race you are.
This is a free country; if you don't like your current employer you can seek another job. If you feel discriminated against you can sue for compensation.
On a related note have you watched "the persuit of happiness" with Will Smith? It is based on a true story and a very good film. It is an excellent example of what is possible in the US.
Originally posted by shooterbrody
Having an opinion is "white privilege"?
Because that is all it really is an opinion. Just because someone calls another a victim doesn't make it so. Just because someone says another is using race as a crutch doesn't make it so.
Anyone,regardless of intelligence, is entitled to their opinion. Would you rather people did not have opinions?
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Do you think people of color are less entitled to an opinion? I don't.
It is not "white privilege" it is freedom of speech.
Would you prefer less freedom?
Again I don't know your history with chissler but I read your post, and it was not pleasant. Would you be surprised if he left and no longer took part in this?
Originally posted by ceci2006
It is amazing that Truthseeka took the time to outline this at the beginning of the thread and it took another source to have it all hit you now. :shk:
Better late than never, though. Again, that is far more than what others have done so I thank you for this.
Especially for the History Channel--they cater to the histories of White people (especially when every other program has to do with Hitler).
Since I've been a part of a lot of groups in which I have been the only black person, I've been shouted at, ridiculed and warned that I was 'speaking out of turn'. Only if rarely if the other white persons ever "hear" me or what I'm trying to convey. In fact, if it is me against other white people, sometimes, the white people will turn against me.
How can you not be sure about this? There are a lot of white spas and beauty salons that won't do "black hair", because it is thought to be "too nappy" and "coarse". There have even been law suits about this. A Black person has to go to a barber shop or a beauty shop that will specifically cater to their hair. Unless you're Oprah and have the money to have your hair stylist fly around with you whereever you go.
Come on. When Bush made a fool out of himself with his mouth full overseas recently--especially when he was talking with Blair--people even on this board tried to defend his manners.
But if it were myself or any other person of color who have done the same, the people at the dinner (or the restaurant) would think that we were "raised by wolves". In all the formal dinners I have attended, I have always had one obligatory old white lady watch me to see if I knew which fork to use with what entree.
I've witnessed white people who have dressed worse than a beggar get treated with more respect that I have. And the silence about their "bad behavior" is deafening.
In RL as well as on the board, I could be discussing something that is benign and have mostly white males retort that "it's another topic about race". Read my thread on "victims" in the U.S. politics forum.
This is especially the case when discussing politics. On this board alone, I may have a different take on political events only to have it shouted down because "I am being a victim" or "whining about race" or better yet, bet told that I'm a "liberal". But it is rare to find people to ever discuss the issues as they are.
Knowing how cops treat people of color as a result of DWB and SWB, this is almost a certainty that because of "racial profiling" there is going to be a confrontation with a cop. I guess they don't have "racial sensitivity" courses for law enforcement, or that the cops themselves have been asleep while they've been conducted.
Come on. There is such a proliferation of white people on merchandise that this has to be believed.
Even on the boards, white people make sure that a member of color is isolated through punishment, being ignored, or singled out for "being in trouble".
Trust me on this one. I ought to know.
There are always mentors for white people in a professional basis. It's almost a given for a white male to have an older white male take him under his wing and make sure that he is given the proper advice. And while the white male gets promoted, the people of color stay in the same position and do twice the work.
It always happens. Some white people are late and nothing happens to them. You're late and they think you're doing a horrible job. Not only that, the bosses think that you aren't taking the job seriously.
Some whites even get promoted after missteps like this because of nepotism or that they are a "friend of a friend".
Why do you think that there are discussions and studies about the disparities in health care? In fact, Black people always have to worry whether their doctors are treating them with the same attention as white patients solely because of fears that even in the medicine there are racists who won't pay attention to one's ills.
This has to do with the "myth of meritocracy". Watch how they are treating Atty Gen. Gonzales right now. Bush and Co. are walking on eggshells because they don't want to cut him loose a little too quickly. But even Mr. Gonzales has to know that the fall from the ladder is quick and hard on the way down--especially for a person with brown skin in this country. You piss off the Man, and he doesn't hire you again. At least not like Michael Brown.
Originally posted by nextguyinline
When does a white person get let off the hook for benefiting from white priveledge? Where is the line?
What must a white person do?
How much of it?
And what is so wrong with a black person becoming succesful? From all the examples I've seen stated, there are no black heroes. Except the sports heroes. It seems that if a black person gets a higher education, and integrates themselves into the 'white culture'. they are spat on. I don't get it.
I really think, that alot of the black posters on this thread, will not be satisfied, until the roles are reversed. Not an equal footing, but a reversal of dominance. Am I right? Search yourselves deeply, is this really the case? Is it an eye for eye thing? The last 400 years cannot be nullified until blacks can enslave whites, and oppress whites for 400 years? That's what I'm taking away from this thread, and it disturbs me.
Is the hatred and resentment so saturated into the black community, that hope for harmony between peoples of our races is forgone? Is the ignorance and lack of white folk to dispell the advantages of white priviledge, so ingrained into the white community, that the same hope for harmony is forgone? ( that's for you to answer whitey )
And what in god's name IS black culture? I cannot for the life of me, figure it out. All I can come up with, from this thread, and a few others, is that 'ghetto' living is what constitutes 'black culture'; in America that is. Please someone, give me a succint answer to this question.