Real Talk about White Privilege

Before the linguistic gymnastics occurs over my statements about the board, let me clarify a few things:

1)I have been in situations where members have isolated me because of what I've spoken about.

2)There have been situations in which the phrases, "imbecilic", "going back to Africa" and other retorts have been used in a derogatory fashion against members of color when dealing with aspects of race on the board.

3)A few bad situations does not reflect on the staff or the Administration here. For the most part, the Administration and the staff has been very professional when dealing with situations here especially in my experience.

4)However, it stands when it has to do with race--especially when the language describing these talks come about. Why is it that the "Social Issues" forum goes downhill when there are discussions about race?

Before this, there have been many threads that discussed race from one perspective. And yet not one complaint. However, when there are members of color discussing these issues and replying against the stereotypical assumptions, all of a sudden the "forum" is going down the tubes? No matter what other connotations have been made about this, it seems that race cannot be treated as seriously as the other issues discussed on the forum. That, indeed, is a problem.



[edit on 29-3-2007 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by nextguyinline
Well, certainly you resent white people for taking advantage of white priviledge.

Did I say that? Or are you putting words in my mouth?

You say I can't be 'redeemed' in your eyes, but then tell me what I can do? Please....

I repeat: did I say that? Or are you putting words in my mouth? :shk:

Deflection? I'm asking personal questions, which have related to topics brought up in this thread. Which, only the first question you actually answered, strangely and frankly, quite unstably to say the least. The deflection is your inability or intentional refusal to answer my questions, and poor attempt to warp my questions to fit your own perception of things.

What's strange about it? I don't think anyone of color here has said that they hated or resented white people because of white privilege. Black success can be measured by other factors, but I believe that your question reflects pure deflection. The reason why I think so is that we need to discuss white privilege as it is and not deviate into other things.

That's as clear as I can make it from my point of view. I apologize if you feel that my answers did not reflect your standards of inquiry, whatever they might be.

However, I have not deflected one bit from your questions. I answered you. I'm sorry it's not the answers you want. But what did you expect?

I could say the same about you.

Who's right here? You or me?

If you think, that I think black culture is 'ghetto living', then answer my question of what black culture is. But you can't or won't. I presume it to be, because there is no black culture in this country. There is only American culture. You are perpetuating the division.

No, I am not perpetuating the division. You asked what Black culture is. I mentioned aspects of Black culture (which has nothing to do with white privilege).

And, it wasn't me who equated "ghetto culture" with "Black culture". In fact, why can't you open up a book (like one would do about 'white' history) and read about the history of Black people? Is it that hard to do?

But, the "division" pinpoints to other aspects of 'color-blind' rhetoric that is being thrown around. If "racial identity" is not "seen", then it is treated as a "division" at least, discrimination at worst. Usually, the studies on 'color-blind rhetoric' indicate, when this is thrown around, it corresponds with an inability to deal with racial identity. And words like "discrimination", "fanning the flames of hate" and "division" (not all attributed to you, btw), are used to deflect issues that have to do with race. That's not anything on my part. But it is deflection on yours.

I think you need to take a hard look at your writings on this thread, but again, to be presumptious, I don't think you can objectively, because of the hatred and resentment that you carry with you.

I don't have any resentment or hatred of white people. You might hate and resent Black people for all I know. Or you might have a paranoia that Black people hate you as well.

No one else here is talking about hate and resentment. But we are discussing white privilege and trying not to deviate from it.

What does hatred and resentment have to do with critically analysing society as it is anyway?

You have subtly answered many of my questions, unbeknownst to you apparently. I think the main difference between you and I, ( i initially wrote 'me and you' but I'm afraid that would just reinforce some of your perceptions, so I put 'you' first ) is that I will log out, still confused on the whole matter, and you will log out with a reinforced belief that all I, or other white posters can offer, is deflection and whatever other nonsense you may believe.

That's what you think. But you will be believed. I can't stop you (or others) from thinking that. It's not enough to say that I don't.

Maybe if I say things like 'true dat, true dat' I may get a more repectable response.

Then, you have never truly read what I've written on the board nor paid attention to my responses. But that's not my fault. That's yours.


To top it off: what gives you the right to say how any person of color feels about a topic? This goes back to my initial question. Where do people from the dominant culture get off telling persons of color how they should approach a topic or how they should feel about it? Does anyone see anything wrong with this--especially when it goes beyond just having an opinion?

--------------------------------------------------------------------

I apologize for being terse in my writing, but it's best in 'real talk' to be blunt. I am trying to soften my language here, but with some topics discussed in this thread, I find that there is no other way to say it.


[edit on 29-3-2007 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by nextguyinline
Is the ignorance and lack of white folk to dispell the advantages of white priviledge, so ingrained into the white community, that the same hope for harmony is forgone? ( that's for you to answer whitey )

I will vouch for my own ignorance!

Before I got involved in the race talks here (nearly a year ago in this thread) I don't even think I had heard the term "white privilege". I knew racism existed, and I did everything in my power (in my world) to fight against it when I encountered it. I admit, I was fairly ignorant and naïve about the tremendous gap in culture, thought, perception and basic "world view" that I have found to exist between some blacks and some whites. I have learned a LOT by participating in these threads.

So, that speaks to ignorance. But only mine. I can't speak to the ignorance of whitey.

With the "advantages of white privilege" part of your question, I'm assuming you mean something like: Are white people unwilling to "give up" the advantages of white privilege and if so, is this unwillingness so ingrained in us, that there's no hope for harmony with other races? (Correct me if I've got the question wrong - but I'll answer that one for now and only for myself.)

When I learned about what is called "white privilege", I resisted the idea at first because I had just never thought about it, I've never "used" it and I didn't see it happening in my life. I really didn't understand it and, in fact, I have several areas in my life where I am underprivileged. And to be perfectly honest, I resisted the guilt feeling inherent in the assumption of white privilege. I had thought I was privileged to be born in the USA and I was forever thankful and honored for that privilege. But I didn't want to be in a position of privilege over my fellow countrymen. I didn't want the privilege of skin color. And I didn't want the guilt I initially felt about having white privilege.

(Since then, I have realized that there is no guilt to be had in being white or even in having the advantages of white privilege. I feel the same way about having white privilege as I do about having the privilege of being born in the USA. If I fed the WP machine or worked to keep WP in place or actively searched out circumstances in which to take advantage of it or even if I kept quiet when I saw it in action, I would be guilty. But I do none of these things and I am not guilty of perpetuating it. So, that has helped me to accept and acknowledge it)

White Privilege Exists

White people are not criticized for many things because of their race. I say "for many things" because we are criticized for some things because of our race as is overwhelmingly apparent in this thread and when talking about Congress, American culture and so forth. White people are criticized for being lazy, fat, McDonald's-eating, couch-potato, pastey consumers. Even I say stuff like "a bunch of laws made by old white men", when talking about Congress and the leadership of this country.

I have no knowledge of any unwillingness on my part to "give up" this privilege. I had no choice being born white and therefore it's not something I wanted or longed for or worked toward. It just happened. And knowing myself as I do, and knowing that racism has always been a problem and an interest of mine, and knowing that I stand up for the underdog, I'd have to say that I would give up this thing that was bestowed upon me at birth in a snap, if I could.

You might say I was born with a "white spoon" in my mouth, and the only thing I can hope to do is what I already do. And I will continue to do so.

So, are the advantages and unwillingness to dispel white privilege so ingrained in me that I have no hope for the future of race-relations, true equality and harmony? Absolutely not! I have all kinds of hope for race relations. There are many people of other races that I have had and do have wonderful harmony with. There's no reason whatsoever for me to give up hope.

I have gotten discouraged over the past year in these discussions, and I've thought of packing it in, but I haven't. It's too important to me and to the world to give up in the face of adversity.

Let me know if that answers your question.

[edit on 29-3-2007 by Benevolent Heretic]

Originally posted by ceci2006
Why is it that the "Social Issues" forum goes downhill when there are discussions about race?

Before this, there have been many threads that discussed race from one perspective. And yet not one complaint. However, when there are members of color discussing these issues and replying against the stereotypical assumptions, all of a sudden the "forum" is going down the tubes? No matter what other connotations have been made about this, it seems that race cannot be treated as seriously as the other issues discussed on the forum. That, indeed, is a problem.

White privilege 101:

There's only a legitimate discussion about race if it's white people doing the discussing. I'm sure you know that, though; I just wanted to say that. And no Homer, this time it's NOT funny...because it's true.:shk:

Originally posted by truthseeka
There's only a legitimate discussion about race if it's white people doing the discussing.

Black Privilege: I can accuse white people of exercising white privilege about ANYTHING. Even if it's not in any way shape or form, true.

www.abovepolitics.com... 37 pages
www.abovepolitics.com... 5 pages
www.abovepolitics.com... 3 pages
www.abovepolitics.com... 3 pages
www.abovepolitics.com... 3 pages
www.abovepolitics.com... 7 pages
www.abovepolitics.com... 15 pages
www.abovepolitics.com... 75 pages
www.abovepolitics.com... 22 pages
www.abovetopsecret.com... 8 pages

And there are many more race-related discussions started by non-white people and where non-white people were and are involved. And you wonder why people doubt you when you make the white privilege accusation?



[edit on 29-3-2007 by Benevolent Heretic]

Funny how you have to mention white privilege to establish black privilege.

But hey, I can't get mad if people keep biting me. It just says I'm SSStylish.

Originally posted by truthseeka

White privilege 101:

There's only a legitimate discussion about race if it's white people doing the discussing. I'm sure you know that, though; I just wanted to say that. And no Homer, this time it's NOT funny...because it's true.:shk:

It's another one of those unearned privileges that happens to be invisible. Just like not knowing about "white privilege", but trying to argue against it anyway.

I can claim to know about an issue even though I don't. But I can be believed anyway because of my race when I talk about it.

Sad but true.


[edit on 29-3-2007 by ceci2006]

'Sup bro? Props to yoo's and yo's courage to speak yo's mind on these here's threads.

Still haven't answered the question I axed yoos.

I'll axe again.

How much money did you negotiate away in your interview with your employer?
If you didn't, how much do you give away to your black neighbors?

I don't suspect you will answer, because you did and do niether. As far I'm concerned, your fake and translucent. I

'm not lessening the impact or denying that white priviledge exists, or that white people accept that priviledge knowingly or not. If all black people feel the same way that Ceci and 'shame felt' Truthseeker does on the matter, than why should any white person even care to know that it does exist, let alone take a personal responsiblity to limit or remove it from their lives? Huh? You can't answer, because you don't know. I afraid I presume again, that you will not be happy until you are GIVEN 10 million dollars in cash. Forget working hard, overcoming and EARNING it, because we all know, that handouts and charity makes a person strong.

Ceci, I have dig out my psych books before I can even attempt to respond to your last posts. You may not see it, nor believe it, but you are allowing your mental self to degrade on these issues. I'm not being accusatory or antagonistic, but your responses, and readily apparent inability to digest what is being said, is speaking for your mental health. I'm concerned, not for me, but for you. I hope you can find some closure on some of these things, but we both know, that this hope is probably futile.

And what does this have to do with white privilege as a concept in society? Please explain since you have those psych books out.

Originally posted by ceci2006

Originally posted by nextguyinline
Well, certainly you resent white people for taking advantage of white priviledge.

Did I say that? Or are you putting words in my mouth?

Your tone and content of your writings say that.

You say I can't be 'redeemed' in your eyes, but then tell me what I can do? Please....

I repeat: did I say that? Or are you putting words in my mouth? :shk:

Yes you did say that. This time specifically, not just implied.

-------------------------------------------------------
quote: Originally posted by nextguyinline

When does a white person get let off the hook for benefiting from white priveledge? Where is the line?


They don't.

quote: What must a white person do?


Fight for a system of justice benefitting all based on true equality and fairness. And it is not one of faux equality and fairness that some like to preach about. We are not in an equal society now. Continue talks like these and do not shy away from them. Do not deflect the issue with trivialities, deflections or dismissals.

quote: How much of it?


White people must not "ignore" the stories that people of color tell. As persons of the dominant culture, they must not "dismiss" the sources and tales that people of color convey. They must speak out against other white people who do not practice justice in society. They must also be aware that things like white privilege happen in society and speak against it. They must also work to change the system politically, economically and socially so that the past is not repeated again.

-------------------------------------------------------

Deflection? I'm asking personal questions, which have related to topics brought up in this thread. Which, only the first question you actually answered, strangely and frankly, quite unstably to say the least. The deflection is your inability or intentional refusal to answer my questions, and poor attempt to warp my questions to fit your own perception of things.

What's strange about it? I don't think anyone of color here has said that they hated or resented white people because of white privilege. Black success can be measured by other factors, but I believe that your question reflects pure deflection. The reason why I think so is that we need to discuss white privilege as it is and not deviate into other things.

What other factors measure a black persons success? All I've you seen you offer is physical ability on a sports field.

That's as clear as I can make it from my point of view. I apologize if you feel that my answers did not reflect your standards of inquiry, whatever they might be.

However, I have not deflected one bit from your questions. I answered you. I'm sorry it's not the answers you want. But what did you expect?

I could say the same about you.

Who's right here? You or me?

Where are your asnwers? In your head? They certainly are'nt in your responses.

My standards of inquiry? What does that mean? A question begs for an answer, there is no standard, except that an answer be present.

If you think, that I think black culture is 'ghetto living', then answer my question of what black culture is. But you can't or won't. I presume it to be, because there is no black culture in this country. There is only American culture. You are perpetuating the division.

No, I am not perpetuating the division. You asked what Black culture is. I mentioned aspects of Black culture (which has nothing to do with white privilege).

Where did you mention aspects of black culture? You made a fleeting reference that there is a black culture, and named some persons who apparently created that culture. You didn't answer the question, you deflected it, by again warping my question to fit your perceptions. Is the answer to hard to bear? Where in here did you explain what black culture in America is?

----------------------------------------
quote: And what in god's name IS black culture? I cannot for the life of me, figure it out. All I can come up with, from this thread, and a few others, is that 'ghetto' living is what constitutes 'black culture'; in America that is. Please someone, give me a succint answer to this question.

If you think that the "ghetto" is all that attributes to black culture, you're a long way off.

Seriously.

I think you haven't heard about the Harlem Renaissance, Crispus Attucks, Benjamin Banneker, John Hope Franklin, Francois Dominique Toussaint L'Overture, Phyllis Wheatley and Charles Drew. They are a part of many other people and events that have contributed to American culture. They have also made Black culture fruitful and rather important.

-----------------------------------------------------

And, it wasn't me who equated "ghetto culture" with "Black culture". In fact, why can't you open up a book (like one would do about 'white' history) and read about the history of Black people? Is it that hard to do?

It is you who equates 'ghetto living' with 'black culture', because you have yet to supply the answers to the questions. You denounce highly educated, successful black people. What's left? If you can't give specifics, then all we have left to infer, is that black culture is poverty and simple education.

But, the "division" pinpoints to other aspects of 'color-blind' rhetoric that is being thrown around. If "racial identity" is not "seen", then it is treated as a "division" at least, discrimination at worst. Usually, the studies on 'color-blind rhetoric' indicate, when this is thrown around, it corresponds with an inability to deal with racial identity. And words like "discrimination", "fanning the flames of hate" and "division" (not all attributed to you, btw), are used to deflect issues that have to do with race. That's not anything on my part. But it is deflection on yours.

Ok, let me get this straight, If one does'nt subscribe to a difference in races, (identity) then one is perpetuating the division of races? To put it simply, your saying that a color-blind person who see's blues and violets as the same color, is making blues and violets even more different? As a black woman, are you saying you require a different treatment, a different society, a whole new 'culture'? It seems you want division, It seems you want to have an entirely different set of rules, and societal functions for people of African heritage. I think you want there to be a seperate black culture, but until you can tell me what black culture is, I have to fall back on the premise that there is none.

I'm sorry you feel that I am telling you how you feel, or telling you how you should appraoch these topics. The fact is, I am not. I ask personal questions, but if the fact that these questions come from a white man's mouth automatically says to you, that these questions are domineering, this is just another reason for me to believe that yes, you do harbor a hatred and resentment for the white man.

Be as terse as you want, language doesn't bother me. The only thing that bothers me, is that from this thread and others, I have no chance of truly understanding how you or pehaps the black community feels as a whole.

Originally posted by ceci2006
And what does this have to do with white privilege as a concept in society? Please explain since you have those psych books out.

It has everything to do with it.

What more do you want Ceci? Was this thread not to help bring awareness to the fact that white priviledge exists, and is being taken advantage of?

How many times do I have to say it? It exists. White people use it.

I really think your just a flamer now. You talk incessantly about how race discussion is good, and there needs to be more of it. You just recently accused this board of sabatoging the forum when race discussions pop up. You just recently made reference to movie, referencing all sorts of racial problems with it. So your DEFLECTION of my questions with the 'what does this have to do with white priviledge?' retort, doesn't cut it anymore. Answer my questions if you can, and if you care to really help this whitey help you.

I don't think you really want to discuss, or help with awareness. I think you want a mansion on the beach handed to you. I think you won't be happy until someone or all white people resign themselves to your perceptions, and set you up comfortably in that mansion with a 'yes ma'am'. I don't think you champion the black community, I think you champion your own personal comfort.

I gave you a pretty good idea last year, to do some leg work, and create a thread which links, and groups together all the threads pertaining to race discussion. Where is it? I don't think you ever will, because I think you don't really care. I think you like to just point out any and all examples of discrimation, seperation and division you can, whether they are legit or figments of paranoia. I can't put anymore 'I thinks' in there, so please don't presume to tell me again, that I am telling you how you think or what you think.

Originally posted by nextguyinline
'Sup bro? Props to yoo's and yo's courage to speak yo's mind on these here's threads.

Still haven't answered the question I axed yoos.

I'll axe again.

WTF??? I'm not even going to feed into this lame caricature of speech...

:shk::shk::shk:

How much money did you negotiate away in your interview with your employer?

The job posting said $10/hr. When the lady interviewed and then hired me, she told me I would make $10/hr. When I got my check a month later, I was paid 8$/hr.

ALL of my coworkers were paid $10/hr.

If you didn't, how much do you give away to your black neighbors?

WTF??? I didn't have any black neighbors at the time. How does this even matter here; do YOU give away money from your job to your white neighbors?

I don't suspect you will answer, because you did and do niether. As far I'm concerned, your fake and translucent.

Well, I'll keep my thoughts on you to myself... Just know they are not pleasant, based on your latest spiel.

If all black people feel the same way that Ceci and 'shame felt' Truthseeker does on the matter, than why should any white person even care to know that it does exist, let alone take a personal responsiblity to limit or remove it from their lives? Huh? You can't answer, because you don't know. I afraid I presume again, that you will not be happy until you are GIVEN 10 million dollars in cash. Forget working hard, overcoming and EARNING it, because we all know, that handouts and charity makes a person strong.

"Shame felt?" I want the govt to give me 10 million bucks? It's getting REAL hard not to be an acehole to you at this point, so I'm not answering any more of your posts. Let someone else respond to this trash, because I'm done.

And it's Truthseeka, NOT Truthseeker, on these boards. I know it's "Crybaby Lazy Ni.gger Man" to you, but you're entitled to your opinions (yeah, I can presume as well).


[edit on 29-3-2007 by truthseeka]

Thank you Truthseeka. Your post answers any and all questions I may have had about you. Fake.

Why the more proper english when speaking to me? Why don't I get the ebonic slang? Is it because your fake? Maybe you think its cryptic or something, and I wouldn't be able to understand. I don't know.

I understand you may have found an acceptance with the 'ghetto' blacks, and you are just molding yourself to your environment, like we all do, but come on, lol, you didn't cry foul when you got your first pay check? Did you think you got payed less because you somehow feel, that your employer thought you were black? You must have 'rocked that fro' at your interview.

I see through you Truthseeka, you benefit from white priviledge as much as anyone, and no amount of slang or hair-dos or gate or actions or anything else you muster, changes that fact. You may not like it, but unfortunately, your white, and according to Ceci, you cannot escape it, nor be redeemed with whatever you do.

Why you use a period when you type 'n-word'? Because your white? Because as a white man, to use the word is still unacceptable, whatever the content?

Great thread, it's accomplished what I think it was supposed to accomplish for many whom have read it. But your character is quite a hoot.

Peace out playa...

nextguyinline, thank you for your long post. It proves this statement accurately:

I can claim to know about an issue even though I don't. But I can be believed anyway because of my race when I talk about it.

I find that I cannot entertain your "delusions of grandeur" as a result.

Because white privilege is an important issue that requires people with real courage, I also cannot answer your comments because they are little more than obfuscation.

Talk about me and truthseeka if you must, but I am going to err on the side of discussing white privilege as it is with people who are not afraid of dealing with this issue. Thus, I am staying on topic and contributing what I can.

I am sorry that you feel so personally inclined to go down the low road with attacking the messenger, but I'm used to comments of your type for a while now. It doesn't faze me. In fact, I am underwhelmed by your attempts to play "therapist". So, diagnose your way to deflection. No one is stopping you.

But, I just think that your comments are just a fancy way to avoid discussing white privilege by placing blame on not only members of color, but on communities of color. I know you'll balk at this. I expect it. But, until you face white privilege head on, I find that I cannot answer your comments anymore in this thread.

I will address other members in the thread, of course--whether they agree with me or not.

I will read your posts with a sense of irony and amusement, though.


Now, I will address comments that deal with white privilege as it is: a societal phenomenon.




[edit on 29-3-2007 by ceci2006]

If you feel I'm attacking you, there is nothing more I can say.

If you still cannot answer my questions, or see that you have not done so, you do so at your own detriment, not mine. You don't have the answers obviously, and are trying to cover your lack there of, by attempting to make me or others believe I am attacking you, or maybe you just really can't see it. In the end, it matters little to me practicly, but matters alot, spiritually I guess.

I sure hope there is a peace somewhere in your world, because we all deserve it. Priviledged or not.

Bye Ceci



Is there anyone who can answer my questions?

Mod Edit: Personal Insults Will Not Be Tolerated!

Courtesy Is Mandatory

Please refrain from posting derogatory comments of fellow members.



[edit on 3/29/2007 by chissler]

I was going to avoid posting comments to you, but this one took the cake AND the platter!:shk:

Originally posted by nextguyinline
I see through you Truthseeka, you benefit from white priviledge as much as anyone, and no amount of slang or hair-dos or gate or actions or anything else you muster, changes that fact. You may not like it, but unfortunately, your white, and according to Ceci, you cannot escape it, nor be redeemed with whatever you do.

ABSOLUTELY the most ridiculous deflection in this thread yet. And that says a lot. *snip* But, I think Ceci has a point.

*snip*

Why you use a period when you type 'n-word'? Because your white? Because as a white man, to use the word is still unacceptable, whatever the content?

Well, Super Psychic, who has figured out that I'm really a Caucasoid ( , this is STILL killing me), I would think YOU would be able to figure this out. That I wanted you to see the word, that is. Come on, a super psychic like you can see race over the internet, but can't figure THAT out?



Mod Edit: Please Review The Link Below

Courtesy Is Mandatory

Please refrain from posting derogatory comments of fellow members.


[edit on 3/29/2007 by chissler]

My fault for that, chissler.

Dude had it coming, but I still shouldn't have posted that.

Our personal opinions of one another are absolutely moot here guys. This is a sensitive subject that is sure to spark a few emotions. If you find yourself getting a little hot under the collar, maybe it is best to walk away for an hour or two.

Any derogatory remarks towards any other member are going to be quickly edited, and the culprit will be held accountable for his/her actions.

Let cooler heads prevail, and let's stick to the subject at hand.

Real Talk about White Privilege

I've been reading this thread with a great deal of interest and a fair amount of disgust.

And getting back to the topic, this is a real question:

"What next?"

Several white participants here have freely acknowledged white privilege, do not voluntarily use it and work against it when they see it.

Others deny it exists, as is their right. Keep in mind that "White People" are not a monolithic block.

So, what next? OP, what would you like to see the individuals participating in this thread do? Is it your desire to convince everybody that wp exists? Do you hold all white people responsible for the existence (remember that 'not a monolithic block' thing) of wp? Do you acknowedge that some white people don't like it any more than you do?

My apologies if these points have been covered… I may well have missed it in the 37 pages of this thread.

What next?