Real Talk about White Privilege

As a Baha'i' we are taught that the most essential teaching of Baha'u'llah and the core of the faith is the oneness of God and the oneness of humanity. Putting aside the matter of God as one of personal faith... the belief in the oneness of humanity by its very essence requires us to set aside our differences (not to deny them but to set them aside) for the common good and to work towards what benefits all of humanity both materially and more importantly, spiritually. I know the past and to dwell upon it is by necessity to become imprisoned by it... Damn any casual look at some of the bloodiest conflicts going on today proves that... Iraq's Sunni/Shiia divide is a prime example...what I want to know is not what happened when or what is happening now... I want to know what can we do as mutual citizens of the world, children of humanity can do to improve conditions for our children?

This is not to discount the black experience, far from it. For 20 years now the Baha'i' Faith has sponsored a black men's gathering (see link) that helps foster s sense of community and solidarity. I as a white man, have never attended but I know quite a few black men who belong and joining the gathering changed their lives. They, like I suggested acknowledge the past but chose to focus on the future.

www.blackmensgathering.com...

Grover, I'm disappointed that you think I'm merely dwelling on the past in this thread.

Though I've used history in this thread, it's been to build a frame for understanding what's going on in the present. It's a shame that you haven't noticed this, though.

Oh I have noticed don't get me wrong but hear what I am saying... the path forward is to teach our children to see beyond skin color or gender, or sexual preference or any other dualism that divides us and see us first and foremost as not black/white, male/female etc... but to see us all as members of the human family. All dualisms inevitably lead to us and them thinking.

Yawn.

Thirty-two pages of outdated whining about ancient history. Minorities are the new Jesus Christ - they drag their crosses uphill in ten feet of snow with a baked potato to keep their hands warm and their hands freeze on the way home because they eat the baked potato for lunch.

Yawn.

If you don't like it here, go back to wherever your people came from. Find some other venue to p*ss and moan about how wretched you have it here in the US.

I know, I know. Condie Rice is starving in the White House. Morgan Freeman lives in a hut on Big Sur. All those Mexicans who are taking over the Southwest are suffering like hell while they take our money and our government benefits and run.

Three cheers for the Boohoo Brigade. They've managed to bore the cr*p out of the citizenry for decades all while collecting green eggs and gubmint cheese.



Yawn.

Originally posted by Landis
Yawn.

Thirty-two pages of outdated whining about ancient history. Minorities are the new Jesus Christ - they drag their crosses uphill in ten feet of snow with a baked potato to keep their hands warm and their hands freeze on the way home because they eat the baked potato for lunch.

Yawn.

If you don't like it here, go back to wherever your people came from. Find some other venue to p*ss and moan about how wretched you have it here in the US.

Landis, I thank you for saying that. You have just proved my point:

Originally quoted by ceci2006


1)A stunning lack of empathy.

2)A lack of identification with people of color, their ideas, their thoughts and their lives.

3)No discernable conscience when concerning the historical past and the present society.

4)A predilection to rendering the uncomforable "invisible" under the mask of cool superiority.

It's not quite so amateurish at all, when there are those who openly voice their lack of conscience and empathy along with the unwillingness to entertain what has been presented here in the form of sources.

Notice I did not say anything about opinions, because any opinion from a person of color is probably going to be taken as unbelievable in your point of view in regards of this subject matter--especially when you perceive our words as "out-dated whining".

But, when there are people who study, classify and discuss this issue academically and publicly, then White privilege is far more real and more pervasive than anyone revealing personal experiences can make.

I appreciate your comments because at least you are brave enough to make them. A lot of others would rather hide in the guise of denial.





[edit on 18-3-2007 by ceci2006]

I understand that happened alot in times past. I understand it is wrong. Have you had to give up your heritage or culture to be part of america? (I am assuming you were born in the U.S.) If so how?

Have you forgotten or will you not reply?

I will speak about this later, but I wanted to repost something from my last set of sources which explain this succinctly:

Your not really trying to use landis as proof are you? I wonder if he is even a US resident. Isn't this thread about "white privelege in the US"?

I didn't forget you, shooterbrody. You have to understand that after a day of watching games on the "edge" of my seat, it takes time to gather my thoughts.

I will definitely answer your questions. Don't worry.

[edit on 18-3-2007 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by Landis
Yawn.

Thirty-two pages of outdated whining about ancient history. Minorities are the new Jesus Christ - they drag their crosses uphill in ten feet of snow with a baked potato to keep their hands warm and their hands freeze on the way home because they eat the baked potato for lunch.

Yawn.

If you don't like it here, go back to wherever your people came from. Find some other venue to p*ss and moan about how wretched you have it here in the US.

I know, I know. Condie Rice is starving in the White House. Morgan Freeman lives in a hut on Big Sur. All those Mexicans who are taking over the Southwest are suffering like hell while they take our money and our government benefits and run.

Three cheers for the Boohoo Brigade. They've managed to bore the cr*p out of the citizenry for decades all while collecting green eggs and gubmint cheese.

Yawn.

And there you have it.

Ceci, notice the "whining" rhetoric strikes again. But wait, there's also "piss and moan." You know what that means...

The rest of that is babble I don't understand. It's like "bar bar bar bar" to me, and I'm not even Greek.

Originally posted by shooterbrody
I understand that happened alot in times past. I understand it is wrong.

Thank you for saying that. However, things are still happening today that have relevance with the patterns set with the past. In the matters of history and society, you cannot dismiss the past because it formulates a pattern how people approach issues during the present. The residue of the past is still very applicable because it explains why White privilege exists and how it is practiced. That is demonstrated through the sources presented in the thread.

These actions do not happen in a vacuum; there is a reason why this behavior continues to occur. And instead of denying it, there needs to be research to find out why this is the cause.

Have you had to give up your heritage or culture to be part of america? (I am assuming you were born in the U.S.) If so how?

I was born in the U.S. The educational system still has an overemphasis on Euro-Centric ideals. Being that this is the case, people of color have to deal with teachers (from the dominant culture) who continually stress these ideals while they deemphasize the historical impact of people of color in society. Until one goes to college, there are few classes that will teach the history of people of color unless there is a teacher who is willing to intergrate diversity into his/her teaching in primary or secondary schools.

I have found out from my relatives that my own Great Grandmother was forced to change her last name to that of the Plantation Owners. Because of that, it makes it much harder to find out my family history compared to those of the dominant culture who have the privilege of having all geneology tools catered to them. All, in all, Black people have a harder time trying to trace their family roots.

When I deal with people in the dominant culture--in regards to formal or business-like settings, I have to tailor my attitudes, language and looks to suit White, Middle-Class ideals or else I will not be taken seriously by them. This is especially the case when one has to present any information to groups consisting of those of the dominant culture. From the flack from this board alone demonstrates that unless you gear your ideas toward those of the dominant culture, you will be ridiculed right along with your heritage and your history. This is especially the case when there are those from the dominant culture who constantly reiterate that the dominant culture is superior in achievements and intelligence than other sub-cultures in society. And this part of oppressive superiority due to White privilege has to be taken silently or else I might be assumed by members of the dominant culture as being "not intelligent enough". Or, if I speak back, there is the potential of others in the dominant culture assuming that my ideas are inferior to theirs due to the fact that they cannot relate or identify with my experiences.

I don't have the opportunity to learn the native languages belonging to my African ancestry due to the fact that it was historically "seasoned" out during slavery. The only language I have to rely on is English. There are few classes, if any, that are willing to teach African tribal languages. More attention is paid to either Asiatic languages (Japanese, Chinese, Korean), Slavic (Cyrillic) Languages (Russian, Romanian, etc.), Middle Eastern Languages (Farsi, Arabic, etc.) or Romance Languages (Spanish, French, Italian, etc.) Colonialism has tried to obliterate the indigenous languages of people of color.

These are some examples that might suffice when it comes to giving up heritage and culture.

Your not really trying to use landis as proof are you? I wonder if he is even a US resident.

Landis' comments can be used as proof because he writes the same rhetoric as many others who have openly dismissed what people of color try to convey through their experiences. It is not about whether he agrees with me. It's not about whether he is right or wrong. But in an analytical basis, the language afforded to white privilege has to be traced as well in order to gain greater understanding why there are responses like this one in topics like this.

Isn't this thread about "white privelege in the US"?

Sure it is. And sometimes, there are people who provide examples of the attitudes afforded to White privilege that cannot be ignored.




[edit on 18-3-2007 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by truthseeka

Ceci, notice the "whining" rhetoric strikes again.

You know, Truthseeka, despite the inocuous nature of the rhetoric, it helps to note these words because it provides a current example of people who are willing to fall back on this phraseology when it comes to race-related talks. It also proves what happens when our sources are ignored for the sake of "personal experiences"

But wait, there's also "piss and moan." You know what that means...

I do. :shk:

But, we can chalk it up to yet another response to add to the list of phrases that are used to demean people of color during "race-related" talks. So much for empathy and understanding.




[edit on 18-3-2007 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by ceci2006
Landis' comments can be used as proof because he writes the same rhetoric as many others who have openly dismissed what people of color try to convey through their experiences.

..but then you say in your very next post:

It also proves what happens when our sources are ignored for the sake of "personal experiences"

So your biased and often prejudicial sources are 'allowed' yet the personal experiences.. sorry "personal experiences" of ATS members are not relevent unless they're 'coloured'? Sounds a little racist to me.. seems we're damned if we do and damned if we don't.

But, we can chalk it up to yet another response to add to the list of phrases

Like 'dominant culture'? Or 'lack of conscience'? 'Lack of empathy'? I could list others but everyones already read them.

that are used to demean people of color during "race-related" talks.

So is this all ATSers who have disagreed with you in 'race related talks' or just those belonging to the 'dominant culture'? Are you tiring at all from writing 'dominant culture' instead of just saying 'all whites'? Isn't there an alternative to grouping us all into one collective enemy like the borg?

So much for empathy and understanding.

[We really need a yawn emoticon.]
It's hard to see someone as a victim when they constantly attack anyone that merely disagrees with a point of view. I have seen NO-ONE demean you for being a woman 'of colour'. Thats complete bs and I and others resent being accused of such things. To me that would be a disgusting thing to do but whats even more digusting is thowing around false accusations like poka chips hoping to get lucky. The threat of calling us racists does not work anymore.

For the record I don't like any forms of racism and I would stand with you to fight against it.. but I've never been able to as you've always seemed to be picketing againt white races rather than actual racists.

Divided we fall.

[edit on 18-3-2007 by riley]

riley, I rarely if never answer you anymore because it's the same old argument without any deviation, right down to the posts in this thread.

I will not be answering your posts again after this one because it isn't any use.

But for the record, I have never said that whites were racist. I have never said that whites were to blame. I have said that it was okay that people disagreed with me. And, I have always backed up what I brought up in race-related talks. I am not racist. I have repeatedly written that I don't care if someone disagrees with me. It's been that way since I've joined.

With that being said, I'm moving on and I am deciding to enjoy myself on ATS because that's how I view my participation in discussions here.

You said what you said. Think what you want to think while I answer other members on the board.

So be it.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Truthseeka, I'm sorry once again for derailing the thread. I will stay on topic now.



[edit on 18-3-2007 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by ceci2006
I began to wonder ... why is there such a hard time in the dominant culture believing our experiences and sources about white privilege.
...
1)A stunning lack of empathy.
.
.
.

Your evaluation was regarding the "dominant culture" which you, yourself have admitted is just a substitute for "white people" here.

Originally posted by ceci2006

Originally quoted by Benevolent Heretic
We know that the words "dominant culture" are just a substitute for "white people". You might as well come right out and say what you mean instead of hiding behind some politically correct phrase.

Then stop crying racism whenever you read "White people this" and "White people that..."

I might also point out that you told me to STOP CRYING RACISM... But it's ok for you to use that language, I guess...

My point here is that your analysis of white people's lack of understanding was made BEFORE Landis even posted his opinion, yet you use him as proof of how White People just don't get it. You also assume he's white, even though he didn't say.

Originally posted by ceci2006
Until one goes to college, there are few classes that will teach the history of people of color unless there is a teacher who is willing to intergrate diversity into his/her teaching in primary or secondary schools.

So, if you don't get into one of those classes that teach comprehensive history AND you don't get a teacher who is willing to integrate diversity AND you're absent during February every year of primary and secondary school AND your parents don't take the responsibility for teaching you about black history.... AND you don't have the desire or means to research it and learn it for yourself... You don't have the opportunity to learn about it... until college.

I don't negate your experiences... however, I don't equate that with "suffering" or having to give up your culture. It's there. You have every opportunity to learn about it. Just because it's not handed to you, does not mean you have to give it up.

As I've said many times, there's a long way to go until things are fair in this country, but we're getting there.

I mean, we ALL learn lies in school. Even when history is about white people, it wasn't true. If we want to have a real education, we have to take responsibility for it. And I'm certain you learned a lot more "black history" in school than I did.

All, in all, Black people have a harder time trying to trace their family roots.

Not being able to EASILY trace your lineage is also not suffering or giving up yout heritage. I cannot easily trace mine, either.

When I deal with people in the dominant culture--in regards to formal or business-like settings, I have to tailor my attitudes, language and looks to suit White, Middle-Class ideals or else I will not be taken seriously by them.

Everyone has to do that. You think I walk into an interview with my casual face on? You think I go in there in sweats and say, "So, you need someone or not"? No, I dress uncomfortably, I put crap on my face, do strange things to my hair, and I act and speak a certain way to please whomever is interviewing. If I don't, I don't get the job.

I don't have the opportunity to learn the native languages belonging to my African ancestry due to the fact that it was historically "seasoned" out during slavery. The only language I have to rely on is English.

You can learn any African language you want. White people did not control the language in Africa.

None of the disadvantages you list are unique to black people.

These are some examples that might suffice when it comes to giving up heritage and culture.

No, they do not suffice as having to give up your heritage and culture, in my opinion. And you knew I'd say that, I'm sure. Because you think I have no soul or empathy or conscience and I'm narcissistic and psychopathic and apathetic, blah, blah, blah...

Landis' comments can be used as proof ...

Proof of what? That there are people who have these opinions? Yes. There is a segment of society that has these feelings. Nobody is denying that. There is a segment of society within people of color who also have these feelings about whites. But your analysis of the "dominant culture" (which includes me and grover and jsobecky and riley and every other white person who's posted here, being part of the dominant culture) was made before Landis even posted. And you've been applying his thoughts to us ALL, not because we deny white privilege (which many of us don't deny), but because we're white.

Originally posted by ceci2006
...it helps to note these words because it provides a current example of people who are willing to fall back on this phraseology when it comes to race-related talks.

People like you, right? You do the SAME THING! (as proven above when you said I was CRYING about racism. And that's not the only example, as riley pointed out.) You have your own set of phraseology when it comes to race-related talks.

I'm sorry, you can't just keep putting this on other people when you do the very same thing.

But, we can chalk it up to yet another response to add to the list of phrases that are used to demean people of color during "race-related" talks.

AND to demean white people! By you, Ceci. You must look at your own behavior in these race-related talks. You are no less guilty of "special phraseology" than anyone else.

Originally posted by ceci2006
But for the record, I have never said that whites were racist. I have never said that whites were to blame.

You may have never said, "Whites are to blame" or "whites are racist", but you're very good at saying things without actually saying them. And this goes to the heart of one aspect of the idea of White Privilege that's supposedly being addressed in this thread. It is a privilege of blacks to practice a double standard, because most people feel that since they've been discriminated against, they are given a wider berth as regards blaming whites. All whites. In other words, practicing racism and discrimination, themselves.

Here are a few things you have said about whites and blame:

Originally posted by ceci2006
To me, talking about inequality makes others aware of the injustices that are taking place. And with injustice, isn't it logical that someone is always to blame?

You don't come right out and say whites are to blame, but you allude strongly to it.

Originally posted by ceci2006
I do not want this thread to turn into a "blame White people" thread, but it is one of the things that have been on my mind for a long time
...
Is racism based on a "culture of Whiteness"

Another interesting thing I notice in these race threads is how many times you have defended that "you're not blaming whites". Seems like about a hundred times. I wonder... if you're not blaming whites, why does everyone get the idea that you are?

I know this post is a little off topic, but I cannot stand by and be silent while you accuse others of things you do yourself. If you really want to have an intelligent discussion, stop blaming people and stop talking down to people and stop practicing double standards. We could have some great discussions.

But then again, I guess we can't since one by one, you've chosen to not respond to the people who have been discussing race with you the longest.



[edit on 18-3-2007 by Benevolent Heretic]

Thanks for the answers C. I do appreciate it.

The reason I brought up Landis...

This is about a phenomenon that occurs in American society. If you want to rant about something, find an article about WP in Australia; then you can slam the Aborigines all you want

This is from th OP on the 1st page. Posts were made to make it clear to discuss "white privelege in america". Can't be ok for some and not all right?

A few ideas...

I was born in the U.S. The educational system still has an overemphasis on Euro-Centric ideals. Being that this is the case, people of color have to deal with teachers (from the dominant culture) who continually stress these ideals while they deemphasize the historical impact of people of color in society. Until one goes to college, there are few classes that will teach the history of people of color unless there is a teacher who is willing to intergrate diversity into his/her teaching in primary or secondary schools.

One can attend school board meetings and have input as to what is taught in the schools. The state I live in is witness to that as the People out here have chosen to teach creationism. That did not happen on its own. Alot of people went to the state boards to get it changed. I don't see why people who cared about black history could get their schools history programs changed.

When I deal with people in the dominant culture--in regards to formal or business-like settings, I have to tailor my attitudes, language and looks to suit White, Middle-Class ideals or else I will not be taken seriously by them.

Are you talking about "speaking english,being polite, and dressing in business attire"?

From Truth earlier in the thread.

I'll tell you like a friend of mine, who is Indian (from India), told me after we talked about the new dress code after class.

He pointed out the Anglo-conformity as it pertains to being "dressed up." He said that whenever he dressed formally, Indian style, white people did not consider him to be dressed formally. He told me that formal Indian attire consists of flowing material, roughly similar to the attire an Arab sheik would wear.

If/when you open your own business you will be able to set the standards as to conduct and dress.
C did/do you attend church?If so what conduct and dress do you maintain while there?

I don't have the opportunity to learn the native languages belonging to my African ancestry due to the fact that it was historically "seasoned" out during slavery.

Could you learn online? While it may be different than in a class at least it would be available.

I am in no way trying to demean your experiences. Please do not take any of this in that way.
C since you have shared I have an example I will share with you later. It is game time Later tonite we will have only 16.

Originally posted by shooterbrody
The reason I brought up Landis...

Just to clear it up, Landis says he's in the US:

Originally posted by Landis
Find some other venue to p*ss and moan about how wretched you have it here in the US.

Black My story, Not Black History

Originally posted by truthseeka
I had pretty much the same view you had until I got to college. It was then that I started realizing how Eurocentric my grade school education was.

All I can say is wow man. I mean, I guess I took it for granted that my father was "conscience" and taught me about things like white privelege, and ethnocentricity from a very early age.

My Father showed me black and white photos of my uncle, and other black men in US airforce uniforms on the backs of camels in front of the pyramids in Egypt. He showed me the pictures they took of the sculptures of pharos with flat noses and thick lips. He told me about how my Grandfather had to play in the negro leagues, and how his Great Grandmother was actually born a slave. He raised me pointing out the depictions of white skinned jesus', blue eyed indians, and blonde haired arabs...amongst other things.

I kind of feel bad for ragging on you because I seriously saw it as reaching for the six cell maglight at noon if you know what I mean. I never thought that someone could grow up in this day and age still thinking that kind of crap.

[edit on 18-3-2007 by phoenixhasrisin]

phoenix, thank you for pointing that out. I feel like my eyes just opened another notch.

It makes me wonder if we aren't stumbling onto something important here. Because I think I also took it for granted that people's parents were a large part of their education, especially when it came to the family and "our people". I know mine were. Everything I learned about my people came from my parents. The history I learned in school -- of the founding of America, etc. -- had nothing whatsoever to do with me or my people. My parents taught me about "us".

Originally posted by truthseeka
But, this was a mere stepping stone; what I've learned in my personal research CLEARLY shows me that I was taught a scripted, biased view of history.

As were we all. This is not unique to any race. And only our own personal research will bring about more knowledge and understanding.

...................

Edited to add... There is lots of information about black inventors on the internet for anyone who is interested.

[edit on 18-3-2007 by Benevolent Heretic]

Originally posted by riley
So your biased and often prejudicial sources are 'allowed' yet the personal experiences.. sorry "personal experiences" of ATS members are not relevent unless they're 'coloured'?

Sounds a little racist to me.. seems we're damned if we do and damned if we don't.

Looks like you're learning from BH. I didn't know she was teaching linguistic gymnastics; I thought she was just using them.

Like 'dominant culture'? Or 'lack of conscience'? 'Lack of empathy'? I could list others but everyones already read them.

She was talking to me. That's why you don't know what phrases she's actually referencing. But, feel free to have a sip of the Kool-Aid; just don't ask what flavor it is.

Are you tiring at all from writing 'dominant culture' instead of just saying 'all whites'? Isn't there an alternative to grouping us all into one collective enemy like the borg?

You like that Kool-Aid, huh? This term references America, NOT whites around the world. Still trying to drag this to Australia, huh?

It's hard to see someone as a victim when they constantly attack anyone that merely disagrees with a point of view. I have seen NO-ONE demean you for being a woman 'of colour'. Thats complete bs and I and others resent being accused of such things. To me that would be a disgusting thing to do but whats even more digusting is thowing around false accusations like poka chips hoping to get lucky. The threat of calling us racists does not work anymore.

Please see posts from Dock6, Deus, or Landis.

Well, phoenix, when the stuff you're taught at home is said to be "wrong" at school, what do you do?

You learn what's taught in school to make good grades, while pushing that other stuff to the back of your head. Hell, a lot of the stuff I learned from the fam I just RECENTLY found out was indeed true; I took it with a grain of salt because my schooling said it was wrong.

But, it is what it is. The stuff I know now shows me there's actually somewhat of a conspiracy in education at this level. And I'm still learning this kind of stuff now.