I'm Intrepid and I'm appearently a racist.....

Originally posted by Koka
Depends, are the kids still living off the proceeds of that bank job?

Am I still living off the "proceeds" of slavery?

As far as I know, I have never benefited from institutional racism. That is, I have never knowingly been hired over an equally qualified person of color, been seated in a restaurant before someone of color who arrived before me, been paid more than a person of color with equal job duties, been given a loan when a person of color with the same credit was denied, gotten better grades in school because of my race or benefited in any way over a person of color because of my race.

Originally posted by Koka

Originally posted by intrepid
I'd reread the thread if you think that. Without preconceptions.

Elaborate on my preconceptions, please.

This one:

Originally posted by Koka
No, I think that the analogy doesn't suit the argument regarding the carrying of guilt. I'm sure there must be a better one, not that I think we need it, because you have made your point time and time again, you're just having problems getting people to agree with it.

The bold is mine and it hasn't been my experience.

Originally posted by chissler
So between Nygdan & BH, I find myself

That's not a bad place to be.

But in the same breath, "we" as whites, should understand that we are not being faced with genocide, torture, or slavery.

Absolutely right. And we're not claiming that we are. I'm not comparing my situation AT ALL with what blacks have gone through, either historically or present day. There is no comparison. I'd be an idiot to compare.

The extent of our suffering is emotional, which is far better than what others have been through.

Actually, I'm not even suffering. I don't "suffer" with being called racist. It's just incorrect. It's like calling me a Christian or gay. I'm not.

Edit to add:

Originally posted by chissler
Yes I am white, but I am not, nor anyone in my family, guilty of any racial discrimination.

So, I think I am getting your point intrepid, please correct me if I am misguided with the above statement.

I think you got it right on.

I don't feel guilty for the actions of other in the past. I just try to be slightly emathetic to a culture's history. Emphasis here, culture's history. Not everyone is deserving of empathy, simply because they inherited an attribute that connects them to others that have been discriminated against.

You're such a smart boy!

Seriously, I think what you said is very important.



[edit on 9-2-2007 by Benevolent Heretic]

Originally posted by foxywhiskers
Had someone actually CALLED intrepid "RACIST" then I would whole-heartedly say that this post is approapriate. Its certainly good advice and something to adhere to for all posts on ATS However, in this circumstance no-one actually labelled Intrepid as a racist or directly called Intrepid such. As the very first post suggests on here. Intrepid was asked to consider another point of view. I am a little bit over this thread as now I just feel as tho it's tunring into one of those historical slinging matches.

FINAL POST ON THIS THREAD - Thanks

THANK YOU, FOXY!!!

FINALLY! Someone gets what I've been saying in this stupid thread all along. I didn't call this guy a racist, yet he wants to use my words from another context to say why he's tired of being called racist because he's white.

Big ups, Foxy!

Ceci,

Would you be kind enough to answer these questions for me?

..can you give me your personal examples of 'successful' black folk who haven't sold out, and then tell me a few examples of how they stayed culturally black.

And also, please a couple of your personal examples of 'successful' black folk whom have sold out, and examples of how they sold out.

Please? and thanks.

Originally posted by intrepid

This one:

Originally posted by Koka
No, I think that the analogy doesn't suit the argument regarding the carrying of guilt. I'm sure there must be a better one, not that I think we need it, because you have made your point time and time again, you're just having problems getting people to agree with it.

The bold is mine and it hasn't been my experience.

Thats not a preconception, its an observation, although now I look at it, I believe I should really have phrased it better.

What I should have said is you're having problems getting those that disagree with you to agree with you.....sorry my bad.

I'm still unsure as to how you interpret my statement as a preconception, all I have to go on are the posts you and others have made hence, observation.

Originally posted by nextguyinline
..can you give me your personal examples of 'successful' black folk who haven't sold out, and then tell me a few examples of how they stayed culturally black.

Despite, as Koka pointed out, the fallacy in assuming there is ONE black culture, and despite the fact that you asked Ceci, I'll respond. (hope you don't mind, ceci )

Damon Dash - Still maintains his connection to Harlem. Does positive stuff in the community there.

Derrick Brooks - www.sptimes.com...

J. Alexander Martin, Keith Perrin, Carl Brown (Vice President and co-founders of FUBU) - Run a clothing line, consisting of urban wear.

And also, please a couple of your personal examples of 'successful' black folk whom have sold out, and examples of how they sold out.

Please? and thanks.

Condy Rice - see post few pages back

Alphonso Jackson - says there is no such thing as black victimhood. Caters to whites who feel that blacks have been given enough support in the years since the CRM.

[edit on 9-2-2007 by truthseeka]

Originally posted by Griff
I have a few questions for our black members here. Why is it that when I say hello to a black person (most, not all) just ignore me and pretend they didn't hear me? Also, when I hold the door for black people (most not all) won't even say thank you. What's up with that? Is it because they aren't taught proper ettiquette? Please don't think I'm being rascist for asking this, but it has been getting on my nerves for quite some time now.

In my neck of the woods it's the Asians who will not say hello to me (when I smile and say "Hi"). They look down at the ground, never smile back. My Dad's theory, "maybe they don't understand you?" I don't know, I thought everyone in the world knew the greeting "Hi". I always think, "gee, they probably hate me cause I'm a white male". And if that were the case, it's their problem, not mine.

I actually have black folks thank me for holding the door. A smile is more valuable than any word you can utter, IMHO.

But I have also dealt with some very "I don't like whitey" black guys at the gym...but when I get that nasty attitude (from anyone really) I ignore them and give them the condescending attitude they truly deserve for their rudeness (and hate). Then they think I'm racist. Oh well. I can't please everyone.

Thanks TS, I actually asked you first.

I don't think there is one black culture. Just to be clear. My concern is the black community in general, such as yourself, and what sets a black person as a sell-out. I know what FUBU is too, I'm not too white.

All the examples you gave for the unsold are owners, bosses, and answer to themselves. Excepting Derrick.

All the examples you gave for the sell-outs are political figures, and answer to the white president.

I'm not very knowledgable of the contributions that your 'cons' have given to the black community specificaly, I'll go look after this post, but I'm discerning that this may be part of the selling-out criteria -- as your 'pros' certainly have had a direct impact on the black community.

Going with this discernment, I have to ask, if this is the case, and to also give my point of view of the political 'cons'. Does not, the mere fact that these people were able to achieve these positions of power and influence, in and of itself, a great contribution to the black community? I see it that way.

So does it (for you), break down to the color of a person, whom a black person underlings too, for his success? and/or for that black person's direct contribution or lackof, to the black community?

Thanks, we grow together, and Ceci, I'd like your answers too, if your so inclined.

Originally posted by intrepid

Originally posted by ceci2006
I said that in response to your apathy of having a conscience and not understanding what happens as a result of institutional racism. It had nothing about telling anyone, let alone yourself, about feeling guilt.

Could you break this down in a few sentences as THIS may be the core of what I'm talking about.

I'm sorry for the delay once again. Despite the talk here, it has been quite busy in RL. But as I went about my work, I did reflect upon what you said. I will try to articulate this point a little more by taking a two pronged approach.

The definition of guilt is rather difficult to pin down, but here it is so that everyone is on the same page before I explain my insights:

Guilt
In psychology and ordinary language, guilt is an affective state in which one experiences conflict at having done something one believes one should not have done (or, conversely, not having done something one believes one should have done). It gives rise to a feeling that does not go away easily, driven by conscience. Sigmund Freud described this as the result of a struggle between the Ego, superego, and id|ego and the superego parental imprinting. Guilt and its causes, merits, and also demerits is a common theme in psychology and psychiatry. It is often associated with Clinical depression/depression.

With that being said, let me clarify a few things:

1)I have never told any white person they should have guilt, verbatim.

2)I have never said that the white community ought to feel guilt, verbatim.

What I did say is this:

1)I have posted my experiences and my sources on race, without blaming a white person of guilt.

2)I have posted my experiences and my sources on race, without blaming the white community of guilt.

3)I have said several times (white)guilt should be stopped. In fact, verbatim, I said it should be, "thrown out the window".


Now, I will make my comments. I do not want anyone of any color to experience collective guilt if they have not taken a part of a said event. However, I do believe that people can be conscious of events (current, historical or otherwise) high-lighting racial aspects by feeling empathy and compassion. I also want people to learn from these events and remember them, because they ought not be repeated again.

I especially would like white people to take responsibility upon themselves to acknowledge that these events happen and feel empathy with a sense of conscience. Having a conscience means caring for fellow citizens from all walks of life, understanding their experiences and taking the responsibility to learn from various cultures without fear.

Furthermore, I want people (in general) to take responsibility in debunking the tripe that "racism doesn't exist". Most notably, I would like people to take the responsibility to acknowledge that systemic racism occurs by learning about it, discussing it, and trying to eradicate it for all people.

I would like people (whites especially) to take the responsibility of not branding someone a racist for the mere mention of racial identity and face their own attitudes when it comes to being "colorblind". I would like white people to take responsibility for honoring and learning about the cultures of every one of us without chagrin, fear, apathy or absence. I would especially like white people to take responsibility for learning about their white privilege. They especially need to be responsible in acknowledging that they have a "color" and be conscious of it.

I have spoken about these topics in many threads. I have never said that I hated anyone. I have never said that whites ought to be punished for slavery. I have never said that I only supported black experiences. I have never said that anyone's culture or history should be phased out or ignored for the sake of the larger culture.

I have always posted sources on ways people from all walks of life can talk to each other about racism. I have posted sources on pertinent aspects of race-related fare that would be beneficial for everyone especially when discussing the matters that are hard to talk about.


With that clarification, I only have one more thing to say. I found this definition of psychopathology to be useful as well:

Psychopaths typically exhibit a "lack of remorse or guilt" in the face of wrongdoing. This is seen by psychologists as part of a lack of moral reasoning in comparison with the majority of humans, an inability to evaluate situations in a moral framework and an inability to develop emotional bonds with other people.

Fascinating, when in comparison to the definition of guilt.

-----------------------------------------

Btw, thanks jsobecky for the supportive post.

Thank you, Foxy, for finally bringing the point home. It's about time someone called it for what it was.



[edit on 10-2-2007 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by ceci2006
The definition of guilt is rather difficult to pin down,

Not really. Someone does something morally wrong.. and, if they're guilty they may or may not feel remourse for it. If someone doesn't do anything wrong.. they've got nothing to feel guilty for.

I do not want anyone of any color to experience collective guilt if they have not taken a part of a said event.

-snip-

I especially would like white people to take responsibility upon themselves to acknowledge that these events happen and feel empathy with a sense of conscience.

Hang on.. but you just said you don't want anyone of any colour to feel guilt.. but now you say you want whites people to take responsibilty?

Having a conscience means caring for fellow citizens from all walks of life,

Speaking of whites not having consciences implies that they don't feel remourse which again.. implies they've done something wrong to feel guilty for. It astounds me how you make exactly the same points and then rephrase while denying that you've said them at all..

Furthermore, I want people (in general) to take responsibility in debunking the tripe that "racism doesn't exist".

Agreed..

I would like people (whites especially)

..and out the window goes the 'people in general' bull..

I would like white people to take responsibility

'Responsibilty' again implies guilt/fault..

for honoring and learning about the cultures of every one of us without chagrin, fear, apathy or absence.

I would like the same from.. everyone else regardless of race. I don't really get that but I'm still an idealist.

I would especially like white people to take responsibility for learning about their white privilege.

So.. does that mean you don't consider poor white people to be people at all? Your sweeping demands on all those with light skin is kind of unreasonable given many whites are under priveledged.

I LOVE this part:

With that clarification, I only have one more thing to say. I found this definition of psychopathology to be useful as well:

Psychopaths typically exhibit a "lack of remorse or guilt" in the face of wrongdoing. This is seen by psychologists as part of a lack of moral reasoning in comparison with the majority of humans, an inability to evaluate situations in a moral framework and an inability to develop emotional bonds with other people.

Fascinating, when in comparison to the definition of guilt.

-----------------------------------------

Basically you've gone from telling whites to feel guilty for being racist.. denying that and NOW you've basically called all members [in a very round about way] who haven't conceded guilt psycopaths. Yep.. that was really seamless.. I'm sure no-one will notice.

[edit on 10-2-2007 by riley]

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by chissler
So between Nygdan & BH, I find myself

That's not a bad place to be.

I can't help but feel slightly awkward after reading that.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
And we're not claiming that we are. I'm not comparing my situation AT ALL with what blacks have gone through, either historically or present day. There is no comparison. I'd be an idiot to compare.

Well yourself and idiotic is something I would be surprised to ever see a comparison between, but I do think you raise a valid point. The comparison does exist, I don't think we are trying to deny that. But, as you've said, we are not trying to compare our suffering to what others have been through in the past. ...That would be idiotic.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Actually, I'm not even suffering. I don't "suffer" with being called racist. It's just incorrect. It's like calling me a Christian or gay. I'm not.

Albeit I have thick skin, from time to time the insinuation that I am a racist, well it hits home. When I spend my time volunteering at different events, hoping that every child has the same opportunities, then one or two scream that I am a racist because some kid of another race got something ahead of him, that can be frustrating. So suffering may be a slight overstatement, but I would say I can be affected.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
You're such a smart boy!

Excuuuuuuse Me? ....Boy? BOY!? I feel so... abused.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Seriously, I think what you said is very important.

Thank you. I hold your opinion in high regard.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

I do remember that. I came across several of those statements in my search.

Why didn't you post them? It would have cleared up everything.

truthseeka's right about you. You do the same butchering of his work as you are doing to me.

And that's what so confusing to me.

I'm not surprised.

But which should I believe? You're saying 2 different things. That I'm apathetic because I have no guilt and then that I shouldn't feel guilty. It's confusing to know what you mean sometimes.

You are very apathetic in your stance of truly acknowledging what HH, myself and truthseeka are trying to say to you. You are so caught up in preaching your morals and not having any guilt, you refuse to even comprehend what we're trying to say.

In truthseeka's and my case, you even project your own fears of being guilty upon our words and knowingly twist them. Otherwise, you are ridiculing and laughing at us. How are we supposed to react to you when you try to put words in our mouth time and time again and then be "self-righteous" about it?

Read over those quotes and tell me you weren't lambasting people who don't feel guilt over black people.

I wasn't "lambasting people who don't feel guilt over black people". But I appealed to their consciences. Over and over.

I have a conscience. I know what's right and wrong.

Good for you.

I have very high morals.

And you like to lord all over us with them especially with the appearance of being "holier than thou".

If I do something wrong, I feel terrible. Even if it's accidently.

That's acceptable.

If I get back a dime or $10 more change than I deserve, I return it. I don't lie.

I couldn't tell for sure, especially since you've mangled my words, twisted my text and put words in my mouth.

What area of my conscience exactly do you feel is lacking?

By being paternalistic towards Black people while ignoring what we are truly saying to you.

In fear that this might be misconstrued, I will post the meaning of this "paternalistic racism" so that you'll see what I mean:

6 Different Types of Racism:
Paternalistic Racism: This type of racism refers to the process whereby the freedom of black people is defined or restricted by generally well- intentioned regulations that are drawn up by whites....It differs in two ways from institutional racism. First, it involves the initiation of new practices and procedures in response to the presence of racial minorities in the country, whereas institutional racism involves the failure to adapt long-standing practices and procedures to new needs. Secondly, it involves a more clear- cut wielding of power by white people, whereas it was argued above that in institutional racism it is a mistake to oversimplify the power that any individuals can wield in established institutions. Paternalistic racism implies that white people have the right to interfere in the lives of blacks for their own good and the power to define that good.

And in case you missed it, here's another definition to add light on "paternalistic racism":

Community History Project
Paternalistic whites prided themselves on knowing what was best for "their negroes." In enforcing a firm and unforgiving color line, whites allegedly were protecting blacks from themselves. It was an axiom of white supremacist mythology that blacks were inferior child-like beings who could not handle the responsibilities of freedom without white supervision. [...] White paternalism involved periodic acts of benevolence which softened and humanized black-white relationships. But, in the end, such acts served only to sanctify a crippling dependency based on prejudice and self-interest. This inexorable circle of deference and condescension ultimately benefited no one and frequently corrupted both giver and receiver.

Even at its best, paternalistic racism was invariable tinged with contempt. To most whites, the black community was a mysterious world that inspired feelings of fear and loathing. A common repository for white fantasies about sex and violence, it was an endless source of prurient fascination. In contrast to the romantic but mythic world of the "old time darkies," the twentieth-century black community was seen as a den of criminality and lust where primal instincts overwhelmed civilized restraint. Black communities were many and varied, [...] such images were more revealing about white social psychology than about black social reality.

I think your conscience shuts off when you speak "for" Black people, twist their words and ridicule their experiences and ideas. By "not experiencing your guilt", you can be "friends" and "talk" to Black people. But I believe that you truly do not connect with Blacks and their words as much as you say you do. In fact, I think you truly do resent Black people--especially when they are articulate and powerful in their own right.

When Black people do demonstrate that they don't "need" you, you become bitter and throw out every stereotype in the book to demonstrate that they are being "bad" blacks. You especially pit the "good" blacks against the "bad" blacks. Laugh this off, but I remember when this was especially the case.

You even crossed the bonds of friendship in order to see whether whom you considered "good blacks" would prove to be loyal. In fact, I recall you said you didn't care whether friendships were involved. That displays no conscience and a lack of empathy.

With that being said, you don't truly listen to Black people, especially when you attempt to "speak" for them. You always have to bring yourself to "interpret" what Black people might be "thinking", "feeling", "saying" or "doing". This is especially done without our consent. You simply turn off your conscience especially when it has been asked of you to really listen to what was being said.

And honestly, like the second source, it appears like contempt more than benevolence.

What have I misjudged as right or wrong?

I honestly believe that you do have a sense of right or wrong. However, it shuts off when it comes to black folk, especially when the old paternalism kicks in. Because of this type of thinking, any message that seems to undermine your thinking, you say that it is "wrong" and start to attack it instead of weighing the message and reflecting on it. Frankly, you show your lack of conscience. You also demonstrate a capacity for contempt especially when you go there. Well, you reap what you sow when you twist the words of others and are unrepentant in your attempts to defame instead of understand.

That's simply not true. I am a very empathetic person in fact. I am compassionate and I feel bad for people who have been hurt. You're wrong about me.

In light of the paternalism, contempt and condescension towards Black folk, am I really?


[edit on 10-2-2007 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by nextguyinline
Ceci,

Would you be kind enough to answer these questions for me?

..can you give me your personal examples of 'successful' black folk who haven't sold out, and then tell me a few examples of how they stayed culturally black.

And also, please a couple of your personal examples of 'successful' black folk whom have sold out, and examples of how they sold out.

Please? and thanks.

Yes, I will, but a little later in the day. As I said before, I've been truly busy.

But, I will try to do my best the first chance I get.

Originally posted by ceci2006

However, I do believe that people can be conscious of events (current, historical or otherwise) high-lighting racial aspects by feeling empathy and compassion. I also want people to learn from these events and remember them, because they ought not be repeated again.

I can agree with that, so long as we're only feeling empathy for those that suffered (not those whose ancestors suffered [ie. people living today]). Slaves (of all races), those that had to fight for their civil rights (all types of minorities, of which some were white women), and those in the deep south still facing bigotry.

All groups ethnicities, races, sexes, and religious preferences have been countlessly murdered and abused since the beginning of time. Those who belong to one of those 'groups' (you can't choose where you're born) that did the perpetrating CAN (they don't have to, and shouldn't be required to) feel empathy, but they should not feel guilt (unless they themselves are still doing the wrong).

Other than that, I think most people think everyone is equal, and thus don't need empathy. If you're screwing up now (no matter your race, sex, etc.), it's to your own accord. (Not saying anyone here is screwing up, just a general statement )

Originally posted by ceci2006

By being paternalistic towards Black people while ignoring what we are truly saying to you.

In fear that this might be misconstrued, I will post the meaning of this "paternalistic racism" so that you'll see what I mean:

So, is Affirmative Action 'Paternal Racism'? According to those definitions, is seems that it is. Just wondering what your thoughts on that is...

There's some kind of panel or forum on c-span right now. It's taking place at Hampton University. Keith Ellison, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Cathy Hughes (the owner of TvOne) and at least 5 other prominent black figures are on the panel.

It might shed some light on what truthseeka and Ceci have been trying to say. There's an audience, so I guess you can gauge 'black people opinions' (or, at least, the black people who attended the event) based on the applause.

ps, In a few minutes, it will be interrupted, but it will come back. I think Obama is giving a press conference or something.

edit to add more info; also, I hadn't looked before, but there are also white people in the audience, which would affect the 'applause gauge'.

[edit on 10-2-2007 by HarlemHottie]

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
there are also white people in the audience, which would affect the 'applause gauge'.

(this is a question, not criticism) Why do you think that having white people in the audience would affect the 'applause gauge'?

Maybe white folk can't read the 'applause now' cue cards?

I've been seeing alot of 'evidence' being posted where someone will say "but a white guy wrote it/said it/believes it". Why is it some people think that I [we] will consider the work of white guys more credible than black guys?






.......oh thats right. Case in point.

[edit on 10-2-2007 by riley]

This post is, in my opinion, pure drivel.

As it happens, I know Benevolent Heretic in real life.

To accuse BH of apathy, or 'paternalistic racism', or twisting of words or refusal to understand or putting words in people's mouths is a magnificent demonstration of ignorance of BH's character.

BH and I disagree on many things. She is very out-spoken and does sometimes come across as harsh. She does, however, have a conscience and is one of the most compassionate and empathetic people I have ever known.

To me, the rant in the referenced post is a glaring example of Freudian Projection.

Definitions of this kind of projection include:

Source

"A defense mechanism in which the individual attributes to other people impulses and traits that he himself has but cannot accept. It is especially likely to occur when the person lacks insight into his own impulses and traits."

"Attributing one's own undesirable traits to other people or agencies, e.g., an aggressive man accuses other people of being hostile."

"The individual perceives in others the motive he denies having himself. Thus the cheat is sure that everyone else is dishonest. The would-be adulterer accuses his wife of infidelity."

And dare I say it, the racist believes everyone else is a racist.

The author of the referenced post has over time made many excellent points regarding racism against black people in the US. Racism, both institutional and individual, is very much alive. A point that BH has acknowledged many many times.

And there are many people in the US who reject racism of all kinds. BH is one of them.