I'm Intrepid and I'm appearently a racist.....

Originally posted by chissler
The comparison does exist, I don't think we are trying to deny that.

Yeah. That's true. When I said there is no comparison, it's a figure of speech. (Let's try a metaphor ) As I see it, the comparison between what white people "suffer" in being hated and called "racist" and what black people suffer in dealing with racism most days of their lives is like comparing a cold, unpleasant wind to the deadly forces of Katrina.

One hurts and is unpleasant. The other, life-altering. Neither is right. And qualitatively, they're the same thing. But the effects of one compared to the other (in the US today) are poles apart.

Albeit I have thick skin, from time to time the insinuation that I am a racist, well it hits home.

And I will have to take back those words that I said about not suffering, because this morning, I am actually quite hurt and sad at the attack made against my character here.

Thank you OMS for your words.

Thank you. I hold your opinion in high regard.

As I do yours.

BH!!!!

Please do not allow the sentiments of any one or two individuals on here to cause you grief...

I have all but stopped contributing to these threads because of the exact same ploys that are now causing you pain.

They find themselves obviously on the losing side of the debate, by any intellectual standard or standard of debate, then they strike out. Yet being bound by the limits of the T&C, they word those attacks and insults using inference and allegation. They also claim hurt and indignation anytime their opinions are challenged.

They make those inferences and then when called on them, proclaim loudly, "Show me where I said that exactly!" What a load of bull!!! Go back over this thread and the others with similar content and you will see this in glaring clarity.

They have dug their own hole and shown themselves to be exactly what they are. The veils are lifted and those that can read and understand, now know them for what they are.

YOU however have been kind, understanding and compassionate. This has been repaid back to you with innuendo, insults and character assassination. THIS IS NOT A FAULT OF YOURS!!! It is clearly and succinctly the actions of another that can not hope to stand with you and debate on the same conscientious, intellectual and compassionate level.

Remember...

Insults are always the final bastion of losers and those without moral character.

Those that have eyes and can see are fully aware of the events here...

Semper

About institutional racism. In DC 95% of the DC government is composed of black people. I actually have felt institutional racism first hand. I tried to get a job for the DC government. Guess what. When I walked in, the two people who interviewed me were black. When I was done, a young black man was next. I had way more qualifications and experience than him. Who got the job? You guessed it, the black kid.

Now, Cici, Koko and Truthseeker, do you feel guilty about my firsthand institutional racism? No? Then why should I feel giulty of yours?

Why is this discussion even up ? This is racist just to bring up the whole thing. Everyone is entitled to thier own opinion in this free country and noone should be able to take that from them. Whether it be Homosexuals or if I wanna start having intercourse with animals that is my RIGHT. I have my right in America that my Fathers Fathers Fathers fought and died for .... and because of this ... I know I am here for a reason .. So I can take advantage of all of the common sense things that they put into the constitution that they never thought would ever even be talked about. So I am here to seek out every wrong that I can and do it legally. That is what the world we live in today is all about.

We should have known this was coming when we put the double Jeopardy law into effect ... I don't give a crap if someone has been on trial and has been found Not Guilty of murder. If I have a tape of them murdering the person they were on trial and found not guilty for ... If our law system doesn't do something for me ... I will take care of this in the good old Texas way ...

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Why do you think that having white people in the audience would affect the 'applause gauge'?

I mentioned the applause because, when we talk about race, we can't really gauge what large groups of black, or white, people think... because we're all just individuals here.

In this instance, we have what appears to be a stadium-type facility full of what I thought were just black people. I figured that, by noting when they clap, posters here could get a clearer idea of what large numbers of black people agree on.

Then, when I realized that there were also white people in the audience, I realized that their applause would affect the ability to gauge what black people agree on... since they're white.

Make sense?


edit to add: Moving beyond semantic misunderstandings, I wonder if you, or riley, checked out the program.

[edit on 10-2-2007 by HarlemHottie]

Originally posted by Griff
About institutional racism. In DC 95% of the DC government is composed of black people. I actually have felt institutional racism first hand. I tried to get a job for the DC government. Guess what. When I walked in, the two people who interviewed me were black. When I was done, a young black man was next. I had way more qualifications and experience than him. Who got the job? You guessed it, the black kid.

Now, Cici, Koko and Truthseeker, do you feel guilty about my firsthand institutional racism? No? Then why should I feel giulty of yours?

Well Gritt, maybe they were worried you may, one day, play the race card.

As you said you had more qualifications and experience, you should have been the automatic choice, there is no way that other guy had anything that could have beaten you to that job. Oh, except the colour of his skin.

There is always the chance they were indeed racist, so if you believed you had a case why did you not take it further?

I care not if you feel guilt, that is your choice.


[edit on 10-2-2007 by Koka]

Thanks for the heads up, HH.

I just turned it on now, but I'm hearing REAL TALK already.

Originally posted by truthseeka
Thanks for the heads up, HH.

I just turned it on now, but I'm hearing REAL TALK already.

You're welcome.

It's a beautiful thing to see us getting together and addressing our collective futures. Definitely worth the time to watch. I'm planning to purchase the book and share it with my book club.

I love Cornel West, btw. I agree with damn near everything he says.

Originally posted by Open_Minded Skeptic
This post is, in my opinion, pure drivel.

As it happens, I know Benevolent Heretic in real life.

To accuse BH of apathy, or 'paternalistic racism', or twisting of words or refusal to understand or putting words in people's mouths is a magnificent demonstration of ignorance of BH's character.

BH and I disagree on many things. She is very out-spoken and does sometimes come across as harsh. She does, however, have a conscience and is one of the most compassionate and empathetic people I have ever known.

To me, the rant in the referenced post is a glaring example of Freudian Projection.

Definitions of this kind of projection include:

Source

"A defense mechanism in which the individual attributes to other people impulses and traits that he himself has but cannot accept. It is especially likely to occur when the person lacks insight into his own impulses and traits."

"Attributing one's own undesirable traits to other people or agencies, e.g., an aggressive man accuses other people of being hostile."

"The individual perceives in others the motive he denies having himself. Thus the cheat is sure that everyone else is dishonest. The would-be adulterer accuses his wife of infidelity."

And dare I say it, the racist believes everyone else is a racist.

The author of the referenced post has over time made many excellent points regarding racism against black people in the US. Racism, both institutional and individual, is very much alive. A point that BH has acknowledged many many times.

And there are many people in the US who reject racism of all kinds. BH is one of them.

I would like people to note that the "author" in this post did not address the notion of paternalism and whether this is the case.

I just have this source to post from another thread:

Individual black people/people of color often describe moments where they challenge racist speech at meetings or in other formal settings only to witness a majority of folks rush to comfort the racist individual they have challenged, as though that person is the victim and the person who raised questions a persecutor.

BH= perceived as victim.

Myself = perceived as persecutor.

The situation has proved accurate.

And about a racist believes another person is a racist....

So what? She hasn't refuted my points. She has only had other people pat her on the back. She can be as nice and lovely a person as you can make her. But that doesn't erase her lack of conscience when it comes to paternalism.






[edit on 10-2-2007 by ceci2006]

DAMN, HH.

I gotta thank you again for the heads up. I had things to do, but I can't take my eyes off the screen.

Examining the psychological aspect of Misconception and the resulting confusion.

"Self Delusion"

The resultant difficulties with such psychosis, is the absolute belief of the individual that the situation exists. No amount of reinforcement or contradiction will apply itself to a resolution, as the individual truly believes.

Using inferences and vague ideological comments from non-involved persons to substantiate an intent, without directly answering or involving the subject matter, then berating other involved individuals for not understanding or responding.

Sounds simple, but this is actually a very real and complicated state of mind that is apparent here in many variations. This is also quite clearly one of the most profound reasons for misunderstanding among those that are attempting to do just that.

Some obvious and succinct examples can be found in posting of "EX" without source material, requests for answers to questions that have never been asked and an apparent overwhelming desire for "proof" in an abstract discussion. Typically this has manifested itself in requests for another poster to re-quote posts from the requesting poster. Then accepting this as normal and acceptable in a situational debate.

This as well as other equally deep and profound reasons why this thread has degraded to it's current state.
The sad thing is that the ones that truly are experiencing this phenomenon, will of course only deflect this onto other posters. This being a part and symptom of the psychosis.

Semper

Originally posted by ceci2006

Originally posted by Open_Minded Skeptic
To accuse BH of apathy, or 'paternalistic racism', or twisting of words or refusal to understand or putting words in people's mouths is a magnificent demonstration of ignorance of BH's character.

I would like people to note that the "author" in this post did not address the notion of paternalism and whether this is the case.

Actually, I did.

As your own quote of my post clearly indicates (emphasis added this time).

Well thanks for NOT answering what I asked of you ceci. I said, "In a few sentences......." Here's another thing I'm tired of, the obfuscation, the, "I never said verbatim", that's an easy out. Spell it out succinctly about my conscience and paternalism. That way I can answer your DIRECT points. God forbid that I would "twist your words."

Basically, let's get to the bottom line.

intrepid
I didn't do anything of this sort. I am not defending my race, I'm defending MYSELF!

Indeed. And its unfair that you should be incorrectly called a racist. It also can't help but be said that its unfair that blacks were kidnapped and put into forced labour camps for generations, legally.
Some would also say that its unfair that one the former comes up, the latter also has to be mentioned, but I don't see how it can't.

Consider this, I am sure that you've heard imprisoned criminals complain about how its unfair that they have to be sent to their cells, or that their quality of food is unacceptable. And their complaints aren't lies or falsehoods, the problems exist. At the same time, you can't help but consider that their victims suffered far more.

Yes, I agree, the analogy isn't perfect, since most whites now aren't criminals, nor are they guilty. At the same time, blacks are still suffering as victims. And, equally, the whites that are complaining are still benefiting from the past crimes.

So imagine the child of a murderer, complaining that he didn't get to see his dad much because he was in prison, compared to the children of murder victims, or the murder victim themself.

Originally posted by riley
Man I thought you were being satiricle for a minute. So you are okay with racism.. so long as it's only directed at whites?

Hmm, didn't say that.
Let me double check.
Nope, didn't say that. What I said was that, even though racism is wrong on any level, how can whites expect any sympathy for the small amount of racism directed at them or for 'reverse racism', when they still hold the chains of power, and when they won't even respect blacks when they complain about the long term, near genocidal racism that was directed at them?

Why is it a problem is jesse jackson or al sharpton complain about racism, when blacks were kidnapped and made into sub human slaves, and even when that was over were forced into second class citizens status until the generation of most of our parents (iow, disturbingly recently), but then we are supposed to pay special attention to white complaints of reverse racism and the like?

I dont' recall blacks creating a secret society that terrorized whites into moving out of their towns, insuinuated itself into government, organized mobs, dragged whites out of jails, and then publically murdered them. And thats just one small group of whites that did that.

I must say I'm fairly disgusted by this statement

Well, what can be said, history is generally pretty disgusting.
.. it implies that you think all racism against whites is merely justified 'payback'.
Let me check again.
Nope, didn't say that either.

or being struck by rocks at a train station by a gang for being a 'white slut'.. or 'tiny' as an old friend of mine was one of the victims of the race gang rapes in Sydney?

Ok, now apply how she and you feel to most blacks feeling that way.
The crimes against you and your freind are terrible. Terrible things happen. But who gets teh short stick from racism, as a class, blacks and aborigines, or whites?
Which would you rather be? Born as a white person into a world ruled by whites and where the advantages of the system itself are geared torwards you, or as a non-white, ruled by another race, pushed into ghettos, made into slaves, and having to endure organizations that call for your extermination but are protected by the law to call it?

Actually there were also spanish and african slave traders.. but why gets into pesky details like facts..

And when the spanish and african slave traders start complaing about being treated unfairly, why shoudl we listen to them? They were the ones carrying out the injustices.

'but' as in disregard the part where you say racism is wrong and replace it with..

You are free to interpret a simple statement into whatever misrepresentation you feel is necessary.

Guess what? I had a couple of ancestors hauled off in chains as well.

Australian prisoners were criminals. If you want to complain, complain to the british. Then see how valid you feel their complaints are when the british start saying 'man, this treatment of us by the aussie criminals is unfair'.

ilandrah
Modern african americans don't know any more about slavery than modern whites do.

Thats simply incorrect. THe mere fact that slavery was made illegal a long time ago hardly means that that ended racism or the effects of slavery. The federal government had to occupy the southern states to make sure that they didn't go back to their old nefarious ways, and even after reconstruction they still forced blacks into a near subhuman status through law. It was only in the 1960s that this was officially ended. THere are still a helluva lot of people that were around before we had a civil rights movement, its hardly a 'thing of the past'. And the basic situation that we have today, with blacks marginalized into ghettos, low income rural areas, etc, are a direct result of slavery. We still have the same basic demographic structure that we did when they were slaves.

To rationalise racist behaviour with something that happened generations ago is ridiculous.

Feel free to tell that to someone that tries to rationalize racist behaviour.
I, once agian, did nothing of the sort. I merely said that if whites are 'suffering' under racism, and that that means getting unfairly accused of being racist by paranoid blacks, thats unfortunate, but how the heck does it compare to insitutional, social, demographic, economic, and legal oppression???

dock6
Up to one-half of all the arrivals in the American colonies were Whites slaves and they were America's first slaves

What whites are even complaining about this? "Whites" now are complaing about being called racist unfairly.
The colonials used any resource they could to make slaves, and it ended up that blacks from africa made the 'best' slaves.

The Establishment has created the misnomer of "indentured servitude" to explain away and minimize the fact of White slavery.

There is a hecukva difference between voluntarily signing a contract to take up a loan that you pay back through your labour to start a new life in a new country, and being kidnapped from your country and put into forced labour camps.

if the Paddies are knocked overboard or get their backs broke, nobody loses anything."

So what? Who was being kidnapped, and beaten into forced labour? THe irish came here as immigrants, in their masses, willing to work for practically nothing. What does it have to do with institutional slavery and racism? Nothing.

The chronicle of White slavery in America comprises the dustiest shelf in the darkest corner of suppressed American history

Probably because those whites were still the ones that controlled power in this society. For anyone that agreed to work to repay a loan, once it was paid off they were full, regular, citizens. And even if they never paid it off, their children weren't, for generations, also put into forced labour camps. THe descendants of slaves today are told to 'stop whining and get back to work' when they complain about modern racism. The irish get a parade. The descendants of slaves were put onto useless land or crowded into ghettos. THe irish were put onto the police forces.
Lets get real here. Being non-white in colonial america was to be considered an animal, not a human.
And citing from a website that considers Judaism to be an organized crime syndicate probably isn't the most objective nor reliable information source. Nazis tend to be bad researchers.

Lest we forget.

Absolutely ironic statement.

Alternative source, fully referenced: www.epado.bravehost.com...

And now you site another racist website.

www.epado.bravehost.com...
"Asians are good people"? In Australia, we could point a finger in the other direction:
- Asian street gangs
- Chinese Triads, as organised crime syndicates
- Asian-dominated heroin importing networks
- Asian drug pushers
- Asian prostitution rings
- Asian tax avoidance (especially small business)

What is relevant, and what is at stake, is the survival of the European Peoples, and the fight against Multiculturalist genocide.

And what a surprise, a lie from revisionists. If anyone was doing what whites did in colonialism to whites today, it'd be reviled as genocide.
BUt if some non-whites want to immigrate to a 'white' country, its genocide.
For anyone in australia to toss around the charge of genocide like that is completely hypocritical, and utterly unfounded when there is no organization, like the australian government in the past, actively killing and removing whites from their land.

Seeing as all importation of Black slaves was forbidden after 1808, the virtual quadrupling of the Black population in just 60 years - a staggering feat by itself - is exclusively attributable to the natural population growth rate which exploded while the Blacks were held as slaves in the southern states - whatever else slavery did to them, it did not kill them.

Why am I not in the least surprised at this statement, given your other citations?

What does it matter that blacks didn't go extinct during slavery?
We only made blacks slaves because the natives indians were being pushed into extinction in the colonies, and weren't useable as slaves anymore.
And this, if nothing else, shows just how bogus the claim that so many whites were made into slaves. If there were such a good source of white slaves, then why go to africa in the first place?
Because there was not a good source of 'white slaves', because you can't kidnap the child of an indentured servant in america and make him into a slave, but you could kidnap any black at the time and make them a slave.

Up to one-half of all the arrivals in the American colonies were Whites slaves and they were America's first slaves.

Yes, something around half of the europeans willfully immigrating to the american colonies in the early stages had sold themselves into indentured servitude, in exachange for the cost of the ride over and to start a new life and a new home there.
Utterly different from the system that kidnapped blacks from africa, dragged them to the US to be sold as slaves, put them into forced labour camps, and then for generations afterwards legally made them less than human.

IN FACT, in 1830 a FOURTH of the FREE NEGRO SLAVE MASTERS in South Carolina OWNED 10 or MORE SLAVES; EIGHT OF THESE NEGRO SLAVE MASTERS OWNING 30 or MORE BLACK SLAVES EACH.

And how many of them were elected to congress and state legislatures and voted to support laws specifically aimed against blacks? How many of them joined the kkk and groups like it to keep blacks down even after slavery?

WHO WILL BELATEDLY APOLOGISE TO THE DESCENDANTS OF THOSE POOR, BRUTALIZED WHITE SLAVES ?

They don't need an apology, after the terms of their voluntary contracts were up, they were free men and they instantly joined white society, that is, they were fully legal humans, who had rights over and above the non-whites. They werent' pushed into urban centers, and infact they werent' even recognizable as 'former slaves', nor were they predated upon and terrorized by hate groups, nor were they systematically kept out of full participation in industry and the economy.
No one should apologize them because they don't deserve an apology. THey signed contracts, contracts that explicitly stated what the terms were, and they agreed to it. After the contract terms expired, they didn't continue to be taken advantage of. Blacks did. Blacks were actively and legally oppressed until the 60s. Now they're merely actively and illegally oppressed.

Rockpuck
Most blacks don't know is that whites enslaved Indians first

Why do you think that blacks aren't aware of this?
Why do so many people seem to think that they know more about black slavery than blacks???

What does it matter that the coastal black populations in the west coast of africa were the ones running the slave markets? All that means is that african blacks were guilty for the slave trade too. They were the sellers, whites were the buyers. And its the whites that, after they finally legally ended slavery, continued to opppress blacks in america. The blacks in africa didn't consider blacks to be subhuman. The whites in america did.

ubermunche
I've wondered for a long time if the whole race issue is more cultural than actually racial.

There was nothign cultural in the conditions for being a slave. Anyone with a tint of black blood in them could be made a slave. SOmetimes a person was so light skinned that they had to examine the color of their cuticles to determine if they were black, and thus not really human and thus open to being put into forced labour camps, or not. If a person was an 'octaroon', they were considered legally black, that is, if one of their 8 great grandparents was black, then they were black. Those aren't cultural issues. The KKK didn't care if you liked collared greens or told stories about brer rabbit or not.

scrub
What does that mean... that as long as there is a white guy on the planet that is racist black people are free to be racist against whites

You know what, when it gets down to one dude, one goober from texas or something, let me know and I will recind my statemetnt.

benevolent heretic
if black people today 'feel' what it was like to have been hauled off in chains, why can't I, for the life of me, 'feel' what it was like to do the hauling?

You can. Infact, you do. You experience the results of that every day, you live in a country that was built on the backs of black slaves. YOu operate in an economy that simply wouldnt' exist as it does today were it not for the labour of black slaves. The legal and open oppression of blacks in the past created the exact social-economic and demographic world that you and I operate in and take advantage of every day. We live in a country where whites dominate every aspect of law, government, policing, industry, and economy. And yet whites scream 'racism' when blacks 'get' a tv channel.
Go figure.

Why is slavery the only atrocity that I’m supposed to feel guilty for???

I never said it was, and its pretty clear that there is a difference between random acts of violence and severe, insitutionalized, matter of law, oppression.

It is also possible that my ancestors were themselves slaves, as is pointed out earlier.

You can't even be sure of it, because you suffer no ill effects from it. You didin't have to fight for civil rights for yourself in the 60s, did you?
You weren't born into a settlement that the racist white majority set aside for you, were you?
There is no way to even tell if one of your ancestors sold themselves into bondage, yet we can look around and see these massive structures in our society and nation today, lying around like relicts of a past monster. And there not passive structures that will be worn down of their own accord over time, they are active, alive, and continually reinforcing themselves.

I don’t want sympathy. I just want to talk, explore, respond, discuss and analyze, especially my own feelings in an open, safe environment with others who have had similar experiences and thoughts

Fair enough.

I haven’t read that anyone is feeling “oppressed”. I’m not feeling oppressed.

Ok. And thats part of why I didn't want to say that I was specifically and only talking to you and chissler. Both your posts were relatively representative of how a lot of white people feel, and I wanted to use them as a jumping off point for how "whites" in general seem to feel.

Racism is alive and well. Everywhere. Between all races. No one is denying that.

The thing is we can say that every race experiences racism, but I wouldn't for a moment trade having to deal with affirmative action, and being quickly called racist, for the kind of racism that blacks experience.

Intrepid is also part of white America.

Intrepid is a maple leaf (i don't want to use the 'c' word here. )

Which, in a sense, reinforces his point. I don't recall slavery being a big issue in canada. Indeed, the british worked against slavery after a while, even going to war in south africa with the boers over it (in part).

truthseeka
The reason we don't like Uncle Toms is that they're sellouts

There was NOTHING in Griff's description of the blacks in that case that indicated they were 'uncle toms' or 'sell outs'. All he said was that he hung out with them, and that they werent' a fan of 'ghetto culture'. That does not make a person a sell out. ANd just because a person is black and is successful, which is the other description given, shouldn't mean that they are an 'uncle tom' because of it. Thats just plain absurd.

It's disdain for those who abandon their culture for another

Why is the vulgar and stupid 'ghetto culture' supposed to be 'black culture'???

Its not. Ghetto Culture is little more than minstralism.
ANd how can Ghetto culture be considered black anyway, most of the people engaging in it are white kids. The rappers and 'gangsters' jumping around like idiots in videos with women who only exist to shake their large butts are sellouts, they're caricatures of what people have stereotyped blacks as, and they make their money because white people are buying it up.

Not that there's anything wrong with big butt babes shaking it on the video screen mind ya.

But seriously, the product is made by blacks, bought by whites, and the companies that run the labels in the end are owned by whites. SO who's the sell out, the black rapper tossing cash at girl to jump around like a stereotype to entertain white guys, or a black man who realizes that thats bogus. Awesome, but bogus.

semperfortis
"Dominant Culture." I have trouble finding the concept of culture being dominant or submissive.

I think its pretty obvious that the cutlure that controls television, newspapers, clothing styles, food types, the law, the government, the police, and pretty much everything else except BET and Jet Magazine, is The dominant culture. I wouldn't call black culture submissive, but its clearly not sharing equal power with 'white' culture.
What was the dominant culture of, say, southern gaul during the empire? Roman culture, or the druids, for example.

Griff
In DC 95% of the DC government is composed of black people. I actually have felt institutional racism first hand. I tried to get a job for the DC government. Guess what.

Griff, 95% of DC is black, so why shouldn't blacks end up being in most positions.?
DC is also the seat of the federal government. Who dominates the bulk of the federal government griff?
Its wrong that you should be denied a job because of your skin colour. Who's suffered more because of that, blacks, or whites? IF you, and other "whites" on the board are upset that a white guy was rejected from getting a job in the local dc government because of racism, again, i really have to ask, what about thet blacks that have been denied even the right to exist as a human being?

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
I wonder if you, or riley, checked out the program.

Not me, I was reading. I'm kinda confused though. I thought Obama was going to 'announce' on the Oprah show. Has he officially announced? If he did, then I guess he didn't do the Oprah show?? I thought he said he would. (it really doesn't matter)

I did see some 'talking heads' discussing Obama's economic stand. He wants to keep 'the death tax' and he wants to roll back the tax cuts. That's about all anyone said they know about his economic platform.

Originally posted by ceci2006
So what? She hasn't refuted my points.

WHY should she? You won't listen and you'll only twist her words to suit your agenda anyways.

Originally posted by intrepid
"I never said verbatim", that's an easy out.

It's a rather swarmy way that an author uses to wiggle out of something that was obviously said and ment.

Not that there's anything wrong with big butt babes shaking it on the video screen mind ya

NYGDAN!!!!

You are a bad boy ... very, very bad!

Originally posted by intrepid
Well thanks for NOT answering what I asked of you ceci. I said, "In a few sentences......." Here's another thing I'm tired of, the obfuscation, the, "I never said verbatim", that's an easy out. Spell it out succinctly about my conscience and paternalism. That way I can answer your DIRECT points. God forbid that I would "twist your words."

Basically, let's get to the bottom line.

I'm sorry, intrepid, if I didn't answer the question you posed the way you wanted it.

What I said wasn't an "easy out".

I said that I didn't want anyone to feel guilty--from any race. When I tell my experiences and post my sources, I do it to make people aware that it happens, not to feed into the fears that "someone ought to feel guilty".

I also asked as a result of my words, for not only white people to take responsibility to learn about the events affecting people of color, but to also honor and respect our traditions, culture, and history.

Taking responsbility does address the fear of being "held guilty".

I'm getting to the point that when you use the term "obfuscation", that is your way of avoiding the issue head on and not addressing it.

You can say "whining", "desperate cries for attention", "obfuscation" (!?!), and "stepping down from that cross".

But it says a lot when you use a lot of rhetoric instead of addressing the points I made.





[edit on 10-2-2007 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by Open_Minded Skeptic
To accuse BH of apathy, or 'paternalistic racism', or twisting of words or refusal to understand or putting words in people's mouths is a magnificent demonstration of ignorance of BH's character.


Actually, I did.

As your own quote of my post clearly indicates (emphasis added this time).

Well, that was a pitiful refutation to say the least.

You don't even say that she doesn't do it. :shk:

Oh well. There are other issues to deal with rather than continue to address this drivel of "attacking the messenger". I've been there, done that for over 75 pages on my "racism" thread.



[edit on 10-2-2007 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by HarlemHottie

Originally posted by truthseeka
Thanks for the heads up, HH.

I just turned it on now, but I'm hearing REAL TALK already.

You're welcome.

It's a beautiful thing to see us getting together and addressing our collective futures. Definitely worth the time to watch. I'm planning to purchase the book and share it with my book club.

I love Cornel West, btw. I agree with damn near everything he says.

HH, it was wonderful to see all those distinguished brothers and sisters. I agree with truthseeka. I love Cornel West as well. I read his blog every so often. But it was a real treat to see him lecture in person.

And you know what? Not one speech, question or comment accused anyone of racism or branded anyone of "guilt" (which means this accusal of black folk is more of a projection of fear than it is a reality).

I think the distinguished panel demonstrated eloquently our issues without those perceptions from the outside.

It was inspiring to hear them speak.

[edit on 10-2-2007 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by ceci2006
I said that I didn't want anyone to feel guilty--from any race. When I tell my experiences and post my sources, I do it to make people aware that it happens, not to feed into the fears that "someone ought to feel guilty".

Irrelevant ceci, we ALL know that racism exists, by every race.

Taking responsbility does address the fear of being "held guilty".

I wouldn't know, you've yet to address what I asked. "Conscience and paternalism". Now "responsibility"?

I'm getting to the point that when you use the term "obfuscation", that is your way of avoiding the issue head on and addressing it.

No, I'm being succinct. GETTING TO THE POINT. You however are not and using a lot of words to say NOTHING.

You can say "whining", "desperate cries for attention", "obfuscation" (!?!), and "stepping from that cross".

But it says a lot when you use a lot of rhetoric instead of addressing the points I made, complete with a definition of guilt.

Nope, little rhetoric from me. I WANT to break this down, someone doesn't though.

BTW, what about this? Your words:

But it says a lot when you use a lot of rhetoric instead of addressing the points I made, complete with a definition of guilt.

I thought you didn't want me to feel guilt? Again your words:

I said that I didn't want anyone to feel guilty--from any race. When I tell my experiences and post my sources, I do it to make people aware that it happens, not to feed into the fears that "someone ought to feel guilty".

So which is it ceci, am I guilty or not?

A lot of unanswered questions ceci. Do you want to step to the plate and answer them or continue this dance?