Why Don't you Beleive in God?

Originally posted by jammerman
Perhaps believing is the first step towards experiencing GOD or anything for that matter.

Nope, it's definitely not. When I was a kid, I believed in god as much as I believed in Santa. I really had no choice, since it was what people told me, and I had no other theories of my own yet.

The same reason you dont believe in the tooth fairy.

You are asking a question on the premise that an entity of sorts ALREADY exists

This is actually just your personal viewpoint....and not a truism.

Just because YOU believe this entity exists doesn't mean that it ACTUALLY does.

You have the right to BELIEVE anything you want.

I could believe that people live on Mars, but I dont,
I could believe the moon is made of cheese, but I dont,
I could believe whatyou describe as your god is infactsomeone elses devil, but I dont.

My point is..... belief is not a truism...its a belief system and that is all.

From your stand point, god is already fact, and people who dont believe are therefore given various names as atheists or agnostics or whatever....it is they that are in denial.

If like me, know, that this entity doesn't exist in reallity, I cannot be called an atheist or an agnostic, or to put it another way, the premise has to be acknowledged in order for denial to its existance.

As I do not acknowledge the existance of this entity in the first place denying this entity of your belief system is irrelevant and meaningless.

Altair

You talk of a *supreme being* one I imagine in your belief system it is calls god...fair enough....and that this supreme being created the universe.

Why is it that humans can't grasp the idea that no one was involved with the universe, the universe IS, it follows the laws of physics, chemistry and biology....we live it and experience it...

Is it about pineing for a parent, or there has to be more than this....us......

WHY? why should there be.....

Why is it so hard to accept. that this is all there is, and all there ever will be....

All, it seems to me is that people with religeon are in denial of reality, they don't want to believe in the truth, and take on this ostrich mentality of sticking their heads in the sand, and pretend reality is something different...and create their gods to fill the vacuum of their minds.

I wouldn't mind at all, if all religeons didn't infringe on peoples freedom of mind by brainwashing them...

how many times do I hear the US presidents say "GOD BLESS AMERICA"....if a supreme being did exist, it certainly wouldn't bless humans at all, never mind America.

The truth is quite often hard to handle, thats why humans invented the "white lie" (whatever that is)....to spare peoples emotions.

And the truth is, the universe exists and we exist in it.
for all its beauty, and uglyness......and remember beauty, or uglyness is only in the eye of the beholder....
end of story

Altair

Originally posted by altair
The same reason you dont believe in the tooth fairy.

You are asking a question on the premise that an entity of sorts ALREADY exists

This is actually just your personal viewpoint....and not a truism.

Just because YOU believe this entity exists doesn't mean that it ACTUALLY does.

You have the right to BELIEVE anything you want.

I could believe that people live on Mars, but I dont,
I could believe the moon is made of cheese, but I dont,
I could believe whatyou describe as your god is infactsomeone elses devil, but I dont.

My point is..... belief is not a truism...its a belief system and that is all.

From your stand point, god is already fact, and people who dont believe are therefore given various names as atheists or agnostics or whatever....it is they that are in denial.

If like me, know, that this entity doesn't exist in reallity, I cannot be called an atheist or an agnostic, or to put it another way, the premise has to be acknowledged in order for denial to its existence.

As I do not acknowledge the existence of this entity in the first place denying this entity of your belief system is irrelevant and meaningless.

Altair

Good point! I never thought of it that way, but you're right. God would have to be proven to exist before there's anything uncommon or unreasonable about not believing in him. The whole labeling system is bass ackward, isn't it? Nonbelievers shouldn't be the ones with labels.

Originally posted by altair
The same reason you dont believe in the tooth fairy.

You are asking a question on the premise that an entity of sorts ALREADY exists

This is actually just your personal viewpoint....and not a truism.

Just because YOU believe this entity exists doesn't mean that it ACTUALLY does.

You have the right to BELIEVE anything you want.

I could believe that people live on Mars, but I dont,
I could believe the moon is made of cheese, but I dont,
I could believe whatyou describe as your god is infactsomeone elses devil, but I dont.

My point is..... belief is not a truism...its a belief system and that is all.

From your stand point, god is already fact, and people who dont believe are therefore given various names as atheists or agnostics or whatever....it is they that are in denial.

If like me, know, that this entity doesn't exist in reallity, I cannot be called an atheist or an agnostic, or to put it another way, the premise has to be acknowledged in order for denial to its existance.

As I do not acknowledge the existance of this entity in the first place denying this entity of your belief system is irrelevant and meaningless.

Altair

Altair,

Well said. I agree with you that your denial of my belief system is irrelevant and meaningless. Your refusal to acknowledge other's viewpoints/perspectives makes your argument valid. However, you also throw out some premises that cannot be valid based on your final statement and are based on assumptions and are a bit prejudice. I'll try to explain, but please forgive me if a ramble because my brain/thoughts go way faster than I can type.

Would you not agree that we all experience this three dimensional physical reality differently? Don't we have to by the very nature of our geometric construct? I can't experience the world from "your" point of view in place and time because this would make us literally one being. I also have virtually no idea what your experiences have been in this world. I think you'll agree likewise that (although we may have had "similar" experiences throughout our lives, they are likely very different) From this we can see that it is very difficult to understand other's perspective without shared experiences or circumstances. Experience is the primary way in which wisdom is gained. But there is another way... it is learning by listening to other's perspectives and experiences. Just listening, perhaps analyzing, but not judging. I personally have found this to be extremely beneficial in discovering and learning many things about myself and the nature of the physical experience. I think part of why many of us are on these message boards is because we are searching. We are open. We are critical. Keeping an open mind is key. I didn't find out until graduate school that I know very little about this world and I didn't know myself until I spent 3 months in Africa with people living in a world almost completely foreign to my prior experience. (I was there doing an undergraduate internship on Aquaculture in rural environments not as a missionary ) Anyway, what I'm getting at is, perhaps we need to step outside the box to adequatly see that it is, in fact a box, and that maybe the box is enclosed within a circle. The well-known phrase "thinking outside the box" brings to mind the geometric symbology found in metaphysics. The box or square is traditionally used to represent the lower 3 spatial dimensions of existence. I see the square representing duality because each side has an opposite. But I also see that the square is incomplete with respect to the center. Not all points on the square are equal. They are both separate and unequal with respect to the whole. Now take the circle which is used to represent divinity/God/Allah/Source/Unity. All points on a circle are equadistant from the center. There is equality with respect to the whole. There is perfection in the circle on a two dimensional plane. In three dimensions, we have the cube as an extension of the square (six squares) and the sphere (no sides). Now add the fourth spatial dimension... We can't visualize it because it is outside of our physical construct and vision is a physical sense. Likewise with our other physical senses. Until things manifest on the physical planes of our experience we cannot physically sense them. But what about other forms of energy? Magnetism? Gravity? Light? We cannot see them directly. We can only see the effects of them on the physical. Additionally, we know from the current theorhetical physics theories like String Theory that there has to be more dimensions to explain what we do see the effects of in the physical universe. Currently I believe they mathematically have predicted 11 dimensions, but that may have changed as it is a developing theory.

What is your knowledge in these areas? What is your perspective on these ideas?

Also, have you taken a SERIOUS look at the crop circle phenomenon taking place around the world? If you think they're all made by human beings, better dig a bit deeper.

The main reason I speak of the things above is that it is important for all of us to remember that we are here together. We are interacting in space and time. We are all walking a different path and that is valid. But we are also sharing an experience. There's a saying my brother has on his wall. It says something to the effect of, "Everyday we are given opportunities to build our world. Shall we build a Wall or a Bridge?" I personally believe in building bridges.

One last point... Your statement that "belief systems are just belief systems and that's all" is cut short. Belief is an active verb. Our actions are a result of our belief system. We are defined by our actions. That is why belief is so important. It is also important to realize that some things are true whether you believe them or not.

Gotta go.

Peace,

+Jammer

>" Would you not agree that we all experience this three dimensional physical reality differently?

It depends on what you mean by *experience*, as humans our experiences are for the most part the very same, breathing, eating, dreaming, feeling the wind on our faces, the heat of the sun, the view of the cosmos at night, the understanding of where we stand as humans as we see the moon wax and wane, our understanding that a few of those night stars are in fact planetoids like our oun earth etc. Intimate *experiences* of our own daily individual lives are the ones that seperate us.


>"Don't we have to by the very nature of our geometric construct?

our geometric construct is the same...

>"I can't experience the world from "your" point of view in place and time because this would make us literally one being.

This is true, but experiencing existance is universal to humans

>"I also have virtually no idea what your experiences have been in this world. I think you'll agree likewise that (although we may have had "similar" experiences throughout our lives, they are likely very different) From this we can see that it is very difficult to understand other's perspective without shared experiences or circumstances.

Everyone has, as you say individual experiences, even shared experiences will differ from each other within the same circumstantial experience.

"> Experience is the primary way in which wisdom is gained. But there is another way... it is learning by listening to other's perspectives and experiences. Just listening, perhaps analyzing, but not judging.

There are many ways to gain wisdom but formost it comes from a knowledge of understanding the truth of the reality that one exists in, and the interaction within that reality with oneself and the understanding of the cosmos, not from perspectives or experiences themselves, perspective and experiences can be mis-interrpreted, even mis-understood, even mis-leading.


I personally have found this to be extremely beneficial in discovering and learning many things about myself and the nature of the physical experience. I think part of why many of us are on these message boards is because we are searching. We are open. We are critical. Keeping an open mind is key. I didn't find out until graduate school that I know very little about this world and I didn't know myself until I spent 3 months in Africa with people living in a world almost completely foreign to my prior experience. (I was there doing an undergraduate internship on Aquaculture in rural environments not as a missionary )

Yours seems like a fundamental start in anyones journey of truth and understanding.....every journey starts with a single step.


>"Anyway, what I'm getting at is, perhaps we need to step outside the box to adequatly see that it is, in fact a box, and that maybe the box is enclosed within a circle. The well-known phrase "thinking outside the box" brings to mind the geometric symbology found in metaphysics. The box or square is traditionally used to represent the lower 3 spatial dimensions of existence. I see the square representing duality because each side has an opposite. But I also see that the square is incomplete with respect to the center. Not all points on the square are equal. They are both separate and unequal with respect to the whole.

A good tool, but you are falling into the trap of placing yourself into a bigger box while trying to interperate the inner box by placing a layer on top of the analogy of your own interpretations of perspectives and experiences......your still in a box, albeit a bigger one

>"Now take the circle which is used to represent divinity/God/Allah/Source/Unity. All points on a circle are equadistant from the center. There is equality with respect to the whole. There is perfection in the circle on a two dimensional plane. In three dimensions, we have the cube as an extension of the square (six squares) and the sphere (no sides). Now add the fourth spatial dimension... We can't visualize it because it is outside of our physical construct and vision is a physical sense. Likewise with our other physical senses. Until things manifest on the physical planes of our experience we cannot physically sense them.

You see how you have immediately linked the circle analogy to divinity, this renders your whole argument invalid, you are now reinterpretting symbols, dimentionalism, and physical in terms of what is inside your personal box....your still in the box..

>" But what about other forms of energy? Magnetism? Gravity? Light? We cannot see them directly. We can only see the effects of them on the physical.

We understand from the universal laws of physics that these forms of energy exist, we interact with them and we use them, we know they exist, and are able to directly use them, it is not neccessary to *see* them, these are physically measurable quantites.

>"Additionally, we know from the current theorhetical physics theories like String Theory that there has to be more dimensions to explain what we do see the effects of in the physical universe. Currently I believe they mathematically have predicted 11 dimensions, but that may have changed as it is a developing theory.

>"What is your knowledge in these areas? What is your perspective on these ideas?

Theories are working tools to search for facts, that is the purpose of theories, there is nothing wrong with searching for measurable facts, but that is the end truth of a theory...to measure it in a truism.

>"Also, have you taken a SERIOUS look at the crop circle phenomenon taking place around the world? If you think they're all made by human beings, better dig a bit deeper.

Yes to your question, but you have to ask...Why do they only happen at night, surley if beings of such advanced knowledge and understanding were supposedly makeing these circles, why the intrigue and secrecy...why not just say "hey guys...it was us all the time...we're from Alpha centuri you know...we've been taking the ?!$$ out of you humans for years"

I've heard its students, pranksters, even the military, or aliens....

The original crop circles recorded through history, were just that, simple circles, nothing fractal about them at all, just circles produced by familiar wind vorticies. Fractal crop circles only started appearing in the late 80's, after fractal geometry a relatively new branch of mathematics whose name was coined by Benoit B. Mandelbrot was working as a research mathematician in I.B.M.'s Thomas Day Watson laboratory in upstate New York. Mandelbrot was experimenting with the theories of another French mathematician (Gaston Julia) when on March the 1st, 1980 the Mandelbrot set was discovered. Gaston Julia's theories were published in 1917 but could not be put to the test until the advent of modern super computers allowed the millions of necessary calculations to be performed.
Untill then it wasn't known how to *draw* fractal designs, bit of a coincidence that only then fractal images started appearing.....
If you watched a discovery program on crop circles,you would have seen how possible it is to make a quite complex, but simple crop circle.A group of students from MIT carried out the experiment.....

>"The main reason I speak of the things above is that it is important for all of us to remember that we are here together. We are interacting in space and time. We are all walking a different path and that is valid. But we are also sharing an experience. There's a saying my brother has on his wall. It says something to the effect of, "Everyday we are given opportunities to build our world. Shall we build a Wall or a Bridge?"
I personally believe in building bridges.

It depends where the bridge is being built to or what the wall is for, and who is doing the building, if the bridge is into a walled box, then I have no interest in building a bridge there, I'm quite happy with my universally expanded mind.


>"One last point... Your statement that "belief systems are just belief systems and that's all" is cut short. Belief is an active verb. Our actions are a result of our belief system. We are defined by our actions. That is why belief is so important. It is also important to realize that some things are true whether you believe them or not.

I have to disagree, beliefs are not important, and our actions are not based on beliefs,truths is more important than belief, belief is an individual concept layered beneath reality, our actions are based on the reality we see around us, we do not cross the road in front of an oncomeing bus because we believe it wise to use a special crossing point, we act on the reality of the situation and make a choice to cross or not cross depending how far the bus is away from us.Our actions are a result of our reality situation.You don't get out of bed in the morning and go to work because you believe its the right thing to do....you do it because you know the reality that you need money to buy food to survive,or live a particular life style..no matter how fruggle, the bills still have to be payed, people are not homeless because they believe its the right way to be, its because a real situation put them there.

you said earlier:
>"I didn't know myself until I spent 3 months in Africa with people living in a world almost completely foreign to my prior experience. (I was there doing an undergraduate internship on Aquaculture in rural environments not as a missionary )

you see ...you didn't *believe* this was the *right* thing to do in its own intrinsic value...to go to Africa on a belief system, you did it because the *reality* of your then situation, which was, that it was part of you undergraduateship...the reality of your undergraduateship would be enhanced.

like you said, the experience you aquired there, can only enhance to your knowledge of understanding of wider concepts....which will always be part of you individual experience, and has made you a wiser person....which i totally agree with, but don't confuse a broadening of the mind experience to a theosophical experience, the two are seperate, one is a reality check, the other is a belief in a walled box.

**************
A monk and his pupil are walking on a journey back to the monastery from a place of contemplation, they talk of many things as they make there way home. As they approach a river, swollen by the melting snows higher up the mountain, they come across a beautiful young girl sitting on a rock by the river weeping in saddness.

As the young novice watches on, the monk askes why the girl is crying, she replies that it is her wedding day, and that she had been to buy this new dress she is wearing especcially for her wedding, and if she crosses the river, it would be ruined and the family would be ashamed of her, but if she does not cross the river she will be late for her wedding and it would bring shame on her family.

The monk asks the girl to climb on his shoulders, which she does, and he wades across the river placeing her gently down on the other bank, she is so happy and thankful she kisses him on the cheek and runs off in the direction of her village.

The novice watching also wades across and they continue to the monastery, but now in silence...

As they approach the gates to the monastery, the novice stops and says to the monk that after all the teachings he had been given about touching beautiful girls and the like, how can he be at peace with himself for the evil of carrying that beautiful girl across the river.

The Monk turned and said to the pupil.....
"I only carried the girl across the river, you have carried her all this way, who has done the greater evil"

Then he turned again, and entered the monastery, the pupil followed in silence.



>"Gotta go.

>"Peace,


peace to you aswell...

Altair

I did see the "TV special" challenging the MIT students to create a crop formation with some genuine crop formation characteristics. I can tell you that this was disinformation - straight and simple. I have spoken to Nancy Talbott who was one of the people involved in setting the standards for the program and she said it was "Utterly Disgusting" as to how skewed that program was to presenting the "evidence" that crop circles can be easily made. Several points... if you'll recall, they showed closeups of genuine formation plants and soil particles that the students had to create. The conclusion showed ZERO comparisons between the two and didn't even show the created effects.

Two: The formation was acceptable in terms of complexity, but is not even close to on par with what is being seen in the genuine pheonmenon (eg. one formation was over 800ft in diamter and consisted of 409 circles in a six-fold julia set fractal formation with over 650,000 square feet in downed crop alone. It appeared over night in a thunderstorm within 4 hours!
2001A141 Milk Hill, Wiltshire. 12.08.01 - www.temporarytemples.co.uk... )

Three: Nancy said that they had several VERY LOUD portable generators off camera to run the "portable" x-ray creator that were not shown in addition to a number of supporting trucks etc. for equipment.
Three: The creation technique for creating the "perfectly spherical" iron particles and distribute them was, albeit a good attempt, completely unrealistic in terms of the phenomenon itself. It could be seen a mile away and if actually used it would likely start the fields on fire. That may be the reason for the several fire trucks they also had off camera. Not only that, they could not recreate the linear distributions of these iron particles in the soil with respect to the formation.

Do not so easily dismiss something because of television. Talk about being enclosed in a box!! Believing anything on TV without further research is fool-hearty in this day and age... no offense intended. I encourage you (and everyone for that matter) to dig deeper into the CC phenomenon. It is real and it is pointing to great change on the horizon.

One last thing about CC's... They have appeared in the daytime on several occasions, witnessed forming by at least 6 different people on different occasions. The most famous and well-documented case involves the formation of a very large Julia-set formation adjacent to Stone-Henge in the middle of the afternoon. It wasn't there at 5:15pm when a pilot flew over Stone-Henge and at 5:45pm it was there when the same pilot flew over it again.
1996A003 Stonehenge, Wiltshire, UK. 07.07.96 Wheat - www.temporarytemples.co.uk...

The other discussion will have to wait as I am too busy, but thanks for the dialog.

Peace,

+Jammer

I like the trends in this section of the website. So far we have 3 threads in this category that are ironically similar:
1. PROOF that God EXISTS!
2. Proof that God does NOT exist
3. Why don't you believe in God?

lol I find that amusing anyway

there should be a few more!

4. If God exists, what does he look like?
5. If God doesn't exist, then who was Jesus?
6. If there's proof for his existance AND his non-existance, why does God seem so hopelessly confused!

While I do believe there is alot more to the CC phenomena, I have no doubt that they have nothing to do with gods. To associate anything and everything with god, is completely ridiculous to me.

Originally posted by Satyr
While I do believe there is alot more to the CC phenomena, I have no doubt that they have nothing to do with gods. To associate anything and everything with god, is completely ridiculous to me.

Interesting how different perspective can be... I cannot see anything separate from the ALL. It is equally ridiculous to me that people cannot see GOD is all things.

Why do you doubt so much? What do you attribute the CC phenomenon to?

Aliens? Perhaps.

I don't discount this possibility either, but whomever it is has a great deal of knowledge in the areas of sacred geometry, religious symbolism and care for living things.

Peace,

+Jammer

Yes, it is interesting, because, if I did believe in god, I would see him as part of the big "ALL", not vice versa. To me, you're perspective is trapped inside the "god" box, while mine is outside of that box. No offense, but I guess my "big ALL" is much bigger than your "big ALL".
As far as the CC phenomena, I'd believe aliens (or even the earth itself) are responsible before I'd believe god is. Primitive thinking can't explain complex phenomena. Throughout history, it's been nothing more than a deterrent to knowledge and advancement in discovery.

[Edited on 1-5-2004 by Satyr]

Originally posted by Gazrok
Ok, lets turn it around....

Where did God come from?

God just always is, and always has been?

who invented time?

Ahh..see? we both share the same dilemma.....

But, there are even more problems with God....

How can a perfect being make an imperfect one? Isn't this a paradox?

Man is free to chose and he can make him self imperfect and can screw up the planet as well, if god wanted to create little robots he would have done
so in stead he created something special that no other robot can do"have a constient thought and think for him self"

Why should one revere a deity who, according to scripture, had his last personal appearance more than 2000 years ago.

What scripture bible, budism , muslims ?
For all we know god does not have anything to do with religion or he does we may never know after all we are all human , indians, arabs, white, chinese, and the list go's on.

How can one believe a book which constantly contradicts itself?

I my self am cristian we may never know if things were added or taken out of the bible or translated corectly, but what i know is that god exist and i got the universe to thank for.


The universe has laws and rules and it's simply too big for us to understand it.
We are roches compared to it, not even roaches, little microscopic roaches.
The universe is a mecanism and some times it ameses astrologists and scientists that study space.

The universe is the first mecanism ever known to men, because it has laws and rules man from early stage started to guide by it, guide by stars, later
man started to draw simbols of the universe like signs make paterns out of it.
The universe has so many rules you cant even comprehand.
To say that such a big place hapend by coincidence is simply ironic.
It's like a tv or a radio you open it you look at the chips and say that is a bunch of crap i dont know about it i'll just press the button and it will work.
It works simply because it was made to work.
When something is working it's because it was made by something.
Evolution like a flower for example has stages to evolve.
With out planing a chart it will never evolve.
Every thing that works has a planer.
Evolution it's self has a planer and the universe well it's the big example
the universe is the absolute bible if you want to belive in god.
Science can say how but it cant say why.
It can say how the planets spin how it go's around how the galaxys work
but one thing it cant do is WHY.
If there si a proccess there is a planer(creator)behind the proccess there is always planing.
If things would evolve in to total disorder and everything would be difrent in the universe and nothing would work i would understand you.
But when things are aranged and have a very well defined proccess i disageee with you.

atheists are a-souls.
I don't believe because I have not found a good enough reason to. God, or no God, I will live my life no differently. BTW, I do believe in lots of paranormal phenomena. In fact, belief is not the right word. It is like saying I believe I can type.

Early man evolve's, develope's culture, tool's, language's, and the capacity for intelligence. (sound alot like most of the great ape's today

)

Early man group's together in tribal unit's, a few gene's become more activated as a result allowing early man to enjoy such togetherness, have a sense of well being. Basicly, feel good genes. We still have them to this day, well, mostly religous people. Satan came in my mommies womb and stole mine ... bastard.

(right, moving on...)

Early man's predator's are not much of a threat anymore, they've developed the tool's to become the hunter's instead of the prey. (some great apes use stone's to kill other animals, go figure. Monkey see, monkey do) They're able to survive in one location for longer period's of time's without fear.

Over time, thanks to having more free time, they're culture start's developing at a faster rate, along with language skill's. Better tool's are also developed as they realized tool's equal less work. (even the great ape's, if taught, will choose the easier way to do something. They're not as stupid as you think!)

With cultural development and better abilities to communicate with one another, along with the intelligence they developed through tool use, they start wondering about the world around them. They used herbs and plants to heal themselve's, just as any animal today does, but they started wondering. And that's when it really took off. (Koko the gorilla was able to communicate in american sign language. We learned a great deal about gorilla intelligence from her.)

They were already telling stories about they're great hunt's to the women, some men probably lied as they realized that the stronger they seemed, the more attractive they appeared. (sounds like alot of men/women relationships today huh?) (koko's other companion gorilla, forget his name, was able to communicate a nightmare he had with the people studying him. A dream about how he was taken out of the jungle and his family killed and the horrible scream's he heard. Even the gorilla's can tell stories and talk about their dreams.)

They start to develope story telling to entertain the kid's and mate's. The medicine man start's telling of the magical properties of the earth. And as we all know, you play telephone, the message get's royally screwed at it's destination.

They had no written language, so everything is handed down generation to generation orally. They come into contact with other tribe's and cultural exchange's occur, along with gaining new allies and means of trade.

Stories keep developing and the mystical power's of the earth become god's. Rain god's, volcano god's, etc. The medicine men become a sort of priesthood for the tribe's. They played the central role of ritualism, medicine, dispelling evil spirits that made people sick, and appeasing the god's through sacrifice's.

Stories continue developing and changing, eventually the sun god become's the main god, for he give's us a new day to live and light to see. The rest of the god's become his children. Thus is born polytheism.

Overtime, various tribe's tell various stories about the god's. They settle down finally forming nation's. Ancient egypt, greece, rome just to name a few. They all still practice polytheism, and the god's are the same in each nation, just with a few twist's here and there and different name's. The stories became so ingrained with society and culture that people believed these god's really existed. The preist's gained much power by those who followed the god's. People still turned to the priest's to ask for the god's forgivness and such.

2.500-2000 years ago, these polythiestic god's again changed. Someone changed the story again. The main god head becoming the one true god and the lesser god's becoming the one true god's angel's. Rather then the polythesitic god's mating to produce more god's, they ascribe the power to create out of thin air to this one true god. The stories of how man was created by the polytheistic god's are changed, plagarized, stolen. Rewritten so this one true god seem's real. Thus is born monotheism.

2000 years ago, a woman commit's adultry, with fear of being stoned to death, she convince's people that she's a virgin mother. She get's them to believe she never had sex before. They believe her, and word spread's about the son of god. When the bastard child is born, there's already a good sized following. The child grows up being told how he's the son of god, and people worship him as the son of god. The child has no other frame of refrence except that he is indeed the son of god. So he wander's the land's preaching his religion completly believing he is the son of god. After the roman's kill this fake god, he's already gotten such a strong following. Thus is born christianity.


I don't believe for the simple fact that it's a ... fairytale. A story created and changed by man for the past, who know's how many year's it's been now.

Our belief that the world was created to suit us is just ignorant. We evolved on this planet, so of course this planet suit's us. We can't go live on mar's without a space suit. We'd die there, as it doesn't suit our species.

The belief that the universe need's a divin creator, born out of the so called reasoning that since we create complicated tool's, so then that should mean that this complicated world must have been created as well. Nonsense. Stop thinking so primitively.

Many of the old stories made by mankind we no longer believe. We no longer believe because as we grew and learned more, we became wiser and understood more. We've made so many discoveries that we once thought were the work's of a higher power. Obviously something's going wrong with religion if they keep having their teaching's knocked down as we discover more and more. Perhaps this is why they want to replace science with something else that suit's their belief's?

I don't know how the universe got here. Could've just always been here for all we know. But I do know there is no god. We created him on our head's so we could explain away thing's we simply didn't understand. Our unatural development's forced us to do this. We STILL can't cope with reality as it is. We aren't ready for half the crap we've discovered. But, that's tough cookies. We did dicover the thing's we did and now it's time to grow up as a species and suck it up.

[edit on 14-2-2006 by Produkt]

[edit on 14-2-2006 by Produkt]

I lost my faith because of some profound questions that began to skip through my head when I was younger(and continue to do so).

Omniscience has flaws and paradoxes which make it impossible to acheive.

An Omniscience/Omnipotent being needs no worship

IMO a Omniscience/Omnipotent god is above emotions

If the universe couldnt have allways just been here then why can god?

A Omniscience/Omnipotent being Has no motivation as nothing can challenge him/her so why would he still choose to exist?

And finally because I see far to many similarities between human's an ape's in general (emotions, peer interaction, tactics in self preservation, etc etc etc) to not beleive that evolution exists and even though that does not disprove god in my mind it disproves my need for organized religion.

Why not? Because we are here to deny ignorance. What testible or logical theories are there to suggest that a conscious, ultimate being created anything? None. Is it within the realm of possibilities? Perhaps, but without so much as an even vaguely logical theory there is no reason to waste time entertaining the idea when there are much more probable reasons for the creation of existence.

Is the big bang theory correct? I wasn't there so I can't say first hand. However the reasoning for the idea relies on more then superstition and wishful thinking.

Just my opinion.

I don't believe in gods for the same reason I don't believe in leprechauns, Santa, or Tom Sawyer.

'2000 years ago, a woman commit's adultry, with fear of being stoned to death, she convince's people that she's a virgin mother. She get's them to believe she never had sex before. They believe her, and word spread's about the son of god. When the bastard child is born, there's already a good sized following. The child grows up being told how he's the son of god, and people worship him as the son of god. The child has no other frame of refrence except that he is indeed the son of god. So he wander's the land's preaching his religion completly believing he is the son of god. After the roman's kill this fake god, he's already gotten such a strong following. Thus is born christianity.' Produkt

1, 910 years ago, Rome had no public support for their plans to bring the hammer down hard on those insubordinate Isralites. And lo and behold, government spin-doctoring, disinformation, and the 'the rewriting of history' as a means of building the herd's support is born.
The Senators hire a journeyman writer with a good knowledge of what it was like in Isreali affairs. Being the first example of a new way to put the odds in your favour. Unsure How far it would have to go to win, they went all out. This storyteller also wants to ensure possible repeat busiines, as Rome is a cherry score. Flavius Josephus then pens four separate 'eye witness' accounts, includes known historical figures there at the time, and the anger it was designed to incite becomes unsolit

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Originally posted by BlackJackal
Why Don't you Beleive in God?

Everyone who does not beleive in God.

Tell me do you honestly beleive that all the magnificent universe came from the BIG BANG. That everything we know came from a ball the size of a basketball floating in nothingness.

Where did the basketball come from? What is the Nothingness?

The universe just is and always has been right?

Keep going back into the past and tell me where that basketball that created the big bang came from. Something had to put it there. I beleive that the God spoke of in the Bible put it there but everyone here should agree that some supreme being started it all.

Good question.


Most people don't believe in God simply because they are too distracted to even give Him a thought.

Life keep them in such a way that they never really sit down and consider Him.

In the old days, people had a lot of time on their hands. They sat down calmly for hours and thought properly about the bigger things.

Nowadays, they are too busy. Pace of life is unrelenting.

Pepole don't even have time for their own children and their needs, let alone God and His wishes.

They come home tired from work. Sit in front of the TV and stay destracted for hours until they go back to work the next day.

And so the routine continues... till they reach 79.

When one foot is in the grave, they begin to wonder whether or not there is life on the other side.

Only then they start to think about God and meaning of life.



" It is your attachment to objects that make you deaf and blind. " [ Supreme Being ]





[edit on 25-2-2006 by mr conspiracy]

Originally posted by BlackJackal
Tell me do you honestly beleive that all the magnificent universe came from the BIG BANG. That everything we know came from a ball the size of a basketball floating in nothingness.

i can't believe there's been interest in this thread, as the person who started it is completly inane. one no one claims everything came from anything the size of a basketball, and neither did it come from 'nothing'. however, i do believe that christians say that 'god' has always been here and always will be. so the big bang came from 'something', and it's actually god that supposedly came from nothing, or he's always been here etc.

Where did the basketball come from? What is the Nothingness?

basketball originated in america?? i'm guessing it came from there. as for the 'nothing', have you seen the never ending story. you may be able to get more info on the 'nothing' from that.

The universe just is and always has been right?

well we don't believe it's always been in this shape and form. we think it's been changing over billions of years, to get to this current state.

Keep going back into the past and tell me where that basketball that created the big bang came from. Something had to put it there. I beleive that the God spoke of in the Bible put it there but everyone here should agree that some supreme being started it all.

i've never heard such absurdness. everyone should agree that some supreme being started it all? why would you assume such BS? not sure why you keep calling it a basket ball too.

for you perhaps, a person with limited brain functions and abilities to think, may believe in creation as it suits you, as it's easy to understand. i mean lets face it, genesis looks like it was written for a five year old to read. as for cosmic evolution, you cannot even begin to understand, hence you try and debunk it with statements such as 'where did this basketball come from'...which isn't a very good statement against the big bang theory anyways.