HUD Secretary Speaks Against Black Victimhood

That brings up a several questions:

1)Why is Mr. Jackson's message so important that white people have to fight tooth and nail to keep on disseminating it?

2)Why is it so hard to believe that Mr. Jackson's words are financially and ideologically based due to his connections?

3)How did the "blaming culture" argument start? How did the "victim mentality" arguement start? Why is there a conclusion that when some Black folk reject the message that it is because of liberalism, having someone "owe" them something or because of reparations?



[edit on 28-1-2007 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by ceci2006
But it got me thinking. When was the last time you heard a big white celebrity with moral authority raining down critical bombs on white people’s heads?

Guess you missed the big anti-war rally in DC this weekend, eh? Tens of thousands of people, headlined by a bunch of the (white) left wing Hollywoodites telling congress and the (white) Bush administration what to do. And then there are 'Not in my name'. 'Move on' ... etc etc.

BTW .. the HUD secretary isn't a 'celebrity'. It's his job to openly discuss these things.

It might provide a reason why such messages disparaging Blacks (and poor Blacks) are in the media.

A black man telling black people not to have babies and abandon them is not disparaging. Considering that 70% of black children are born into single parent families, it is a GOOD message.

Originally posted by ceci2006
A question needs to be asked why these messages continue to be disseminated.

Answer - because it needs to be said. Self responsibility. Take responsibility for personal decisions. It's just that simple.

Originally posted by ceci2006
Jackson's words end up being part of the neo-con campaign to not only stir of the notion of fear;

yeah, I'm reaaaaaaaaally going to be afraid of black people because the HUD Secretary made a statement that black people ought not to be making babies and abandoning them... that they need to take personal responsibility for their own decisions. His message was a good one for ALL Americans, not just black Americans, and it instills no fear.

He has no interest in changing the Black Community for the better

And that's why he told the black community to do these things which would make their lives better and a bit easier ... because he has no interest in changing the black community for the better? That doesn't make sense.

Originally posted by ceci2006
they are not really that concerned about making the black community better. They only want Black people to "stop blaming whites".

The truth of 'not blaming whites for everyong' would help make the black community better.

strawman in order to fuel racial fear

Telling ANYONE not to have babies and abandon them is not 'fueling fear'. It's simply good advice for anyone who wants a better life.

Some audiences appropriate these messages in order to "absolve" themselves ....

The exact same words apply to those black people who refuse to see that many of the problems in the black community are due to irresponsible personal decisions. They want to 'absolve' themselves of their own personal bad decisions.

Clearly, he does not have any interest in making the Black Community better.

Clearly he makes sense. Clearly if black people followed his advice the black community would definately be better off. THAT is clear.

disinformation campaign to discredit the efforts of Black people toward their advancement in American society.

Telling black men not to abandon their children is a 'disinformation campain'?

Telling black children not to do drugs is a strike against helping black people advance?

Originally posted by ceci2006
Why is one segment of American society fighting so hard to perpetuate Mr. Jackson's message in light of his corruption, negliegence of the poor and political leanings?

Actually, as far as I can see, no one is discussing him or his message in the press at all. So who exactly is this segment of American society that is 'fighting so hard'? And as far as his alleged corruption etc ... he's flawed just like you are. Does that mean his message is wrong?

Why can't the dominant culture accept that Black folk ..

Why do you continually capitalize the 'b' in the word black? It's not a proper noun. I was just curious.

it would be hard pressed to note that there is no white leader telling white people how to live--especially when it comes to crime, amorality, incarceration and drug use.

Oh for pete's sake ... The Surgeon General, Pat Robertson, just about every politician on The Hill, President Bush himself and his Americorps speeches ... etc etc ....

This is especially the case with Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie....
All of these actors and plenty others from the dominant culture are more prone to be hired by their employers. Thus, they continue to work despite their loose morals and criminality.

Are you serious? Robert Downey Jr. did his time in jail and is out. After a person does his jail time he is allowed to work .. he's ENCOURAGED to work. Pitt and Jolie are disgusting vile creatures but they haven't broken any human laws. (God's law yes .. but that's another thread discussion). They are 'prone to be hired' because they have certain talents that get them jobs. They aren't hired 'because' of their flaws .. they are hired dispite their flaws because they have talent to get a certain job done.

Why does the dominant culture care?

I'm a Christian and so I care. My tax money has to go to support people who can't support themselves. GREED makes me care. Basic human caring and greed... that's why I care.

Why aren't they within the poor sectors of society helping out instead of just subscribing to the "blaming culture" argument?

So you want us all to shut up and stop stating the truth of the 'personal responsibility' situation, and all run into Harlem and work in soup kitchens? How about black people 'help out' by taking responsibilty for their personal decisions. That would be a BIG help.

Originally posted by ceci2006
A: Eugene Kane -black people shouldn't complain about anything until all of the social ills in the community have been solved.

This Eugene Kane fella is overly dramatic and totally off. Quit complaining about the effects of bad personal decisions. Quit making bad personal decisions and take responsibility for your own personal decisions. Everyone else (non-black) has to. It's just that simple. It's entirely possible to address both the problems caused by 'the system' AND bad personal decisions at the same time. Clean up the personal bad choices ... it's something that black Americans can do to help themselves, and America in general.

Edited to try to get rid of the bold print and underlining .. having a hard time ...



[edit on 1/28/2007 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by jsobecky
Uh, because this whole thread has been made to read that AJ said blacks are at fault, when he was actually condemning black leaders that he says do a disservice to blacks?

All of which doesn't answer the question.

Why are we talking about "black people" and not "the American people"?

Why am I being asked to condemn "black leaders" and not "American leaders?"

Add to say, AJ didn't say the same about white leaders, bc they aren't spreading the same message.

Really? White politicians don't spread racist messages? Have you heard of the 'southern strategy'? I'm sure you have, but if not, I'm sure you heard all the hub-bub about that anti-Harold Ford ad.

So, once again, will somebody answer the question?

Thank you, HH for eloquently trying to pursue these questions. You have asked pretty much what has been going through my mind about this thread. It is unfortunate that some do not have the courage to get past the "message" in order to deeply think about the repercussions of Mr. Jackson's speech.

I certainly hope that you get treated with dignity and respect when someone answers you.

[edit on 28-1-2007 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
Why are we talking about "black people" and not "the American people"?

Because the HUD secretary addressed his comments - as a black man to black Americans. Frankly, I think his comments are fantastic for ALL Americans. Personal responsibility. You may be in a difficult situation, but make good personal choices. He may, or may not, fail in other areas of HUD (he's too new to be sure yet), but this one message is true.

Why am I being asked to condemn "black leaders" and not "American leaders?"

Did I miss something? Who asked you to do that? The HUD secretary was talking about personal responsibility .. how'd the conversation get to nailing leadership??

Harold Ford

I REALLY like this fella. I wish he had made the senate. I'm sure he will in time.

Originally posted by ceci2006
deeply think about the repercussions of Mr. Jackson's speech.

Yes ... repercussions ... people should make better choices and think before they abandon their children. The 'repercussion' of doing that is just soooooooo bad for America.

Originally posted by ceci2006
I certainly hope that you get treated with dignity and respect when someone answers you.

What the heck is THAT about? HH is always treated with 'dignity' and 'respect'. I have never heard her called a name .. like .. oh .. 'miss scarlet' ... for example.

Originally posted by ceci2006
Why is Mr. Jackson's message so important that white people have to fight tooth and nail to keep on disseminating it?

Where? I don't see anyone fighting 'tooth and nail' to keep on disseminating it. Where is it in the media? No where. It was said and, unfortunately, forgotten.

[edit on 1/28/2007 by FlyersFan]

Originally quoted by FlyersFan

What the heck is THAT about? HH is always treated with 'dignity' and 'respect'. I have never heard her called a name .. like .. oh .. 'miss scarlet' ... for example.

I've never heard her call someone a "one trick pony" or "passive/aggressive" as well.


[edit on 28-1-2007 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by HarlemHottie

Originally posted by jsobecky
Uh, because this whole thread has been made to read that AJ said blacks are at fault, when he was actually condemning black leaders that he says do a disservice to blacks?

All of which doesn't answer the question.

Why are we talking about "black people" and not "the American people"?

"We" as in "ATS" love to take a topic and derail it, that's why.

Why am I being asked to condemn "black leaders" and not "American leaders?"

I don't think Mr. Jackson was asking you to condemn black leaders, HH. I doubt very much if he knows you. Why did he address it to black leaders? Maybe because they are the ones at fault. Maybe because there are no white leaders perpetuating the victim mentality.

But as you know, or should know, for the definitive answer, you'll have to ask Mr. Jackson himself. I didn't get that particular WHITE FOLK'S RIGHT-WING NEO-CON DIRECTIVE memo. I'll have to check my email, tho.

Add to say, AJ didn't say the same about white leaders, bc they aren't spreading the same message.

Really? White politicians don't spread racist messages? Have you heard of the 'southern strategy'? I'm sure you have, but if not, I'm sure you heard all the hub-bub about that anti-Harold Ford ad.

This isn't a history discussion. You really have to stop living in the past.

So, once again, will somebody answer the question?

I'm somebody, and I answered it.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
It's his job to openly discuss these things.

Again, no it's not. His job is to be the Secretary of HUD which, as I understand it, does not include making sweeping pronouncements on societal ills, except for the lack of low-income housing.

And that's why he told the black community to do these things which would make their lives better and a bit easier

How exactly might his suggestions "make their lives better and easier"? Let's see, how would that work in practice?

"I have a really good idea for a business, but the bank won't give me the loan. I have good credit. I must have been my fault... for blaming the white man."

"I live in a ghetto. My landlord refuses to send up heat and hot water. We've taken him to court, but he won't comply with the judge's orders. I bet if I stopped blaming the white man, the heat would come on."

Remind me again how this is supposed to be helpful....

many of the problems in the black community are due to irresponsible personal decisions.

Like being born black and poor? You're probably right. If given a second chance to choose the circumstances of their births, I'm sure many people would change that "irresponsible personal decision."

Jokes aside, let me pose the same question I asked BH to you: how many of these so-called "irresponsible personal decisions" correlate to poverty? Have you done the appropriate research to back these findings, which you're posting as indisputable fact, or... are you just making this up?

Telling black men not to abandon their children is a 'disinformation campain'?

Yes, for the most part, it is.

(Did you read my post to you on the last page?)

My tax money has to go to support people who can't support themselves.

Are you assuming that no "black people" (your generalization, not mine) fall in that group?

So you want us all to shut up and stop stating the truth of the 'personal responsibility' situation, and all run into Harlem and work in soup kitchens?

No thank you, we don't need you here. There are plenty of people, besides me, who make themselves useful to this community, without all the baggage and guilt you seem to be offering.

How about black people 'help out' by taking responsibilty for their personal decisions.

Actually, there are lots of people, like Ceci and myself, who are very active in our respective black communities. Not just us, our parents as well.

How are you helping the local black community? Aside from your well-researched and imminently realistic suggestions, I mean.

[edit on 28-1-2007 by HarlemHottie]

Oops, I hit the wrong button.

[edit on 28-1-2007 by Benevolent Heretic]

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
Why are we talking about "black people" and not "the American people"?

Because the HUD secretary addressed his comments - as a black man to black Americans.

Yes, and I'm simply questioning his motives.

You may or may not do this, as a woman, but, whenever I encounter a potential "-ism-issue," my first question is, does it happen the other way around? Sexism? "Does this also happen to men? In what circumstances?" Racism? Same questions. Which is why I'm asking them of you.

The HUD secretary was talking about personal responsibility .. how'd the conversation get to nailing leadership??

By characterizing blacks as victims, making excuses for them, and suggesting that they cannot advance themselves without reliance on the government, black leaders exacerbate the problems that blacks face and give them the tools to become "losers," Jackson said.
"I am not going to let the black leadership — the so-called leadership — of this country tell me that I am a victim," he said.

This is from your article, FF. As a black person, I took it as a call for other black people to denounce leaders like Sharpton and J. Jackson.

I REALLY like this fella.

You ignored the point. Did they, or did they not, employ the southern strategy against him?

Originally quoted by FlyersFan

Where? I don't see anyone fighting 'tooth and nail' to keep on disseminating it. Where is it in the media? No where. It was said and, unfortunately, forgotten.

You haven't been reading this thread?

Then where do you get your realistic suggestions to the 'Black Community' from?


[edit on 28-1-2007 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by jsobecky
You really have to stop living in the past.

Which just goes to show how very uninformed you really are.

The Harold Ford ad came out last year.

Deny ignorance, jso.

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
His job ... does not include making sweeping pronouncements on societal ills, except for the lack of low-income housing.

When the HUD Secretary makes a statement such as this, it is definitely within the job parameters. HUD
HUD’s mission is to “increase homeownership, support community development, and increase access to affordable housing free from discrimination” and its six strategic goals are to:

● Increase homeownership opportunities;
● Promote decent affordable housing;
● Strengthen communities;
● Ensure equal opportunity in housing;
● Embrace high standards of ethics, management and accountability; and
● Promote participation of faith-based and community organizations

Telling black Americans not to abandon their children helps strengthen the community.

Children in single parent households have a much harder time then those with two parents - harder economically and emotionally. The economic situation of those involved improves without the addition of out-of-wedlock children.

Telling them not to have children and abandon them helps the community economically.

How exactly might his suggestions "make their lives better and easier"?

Simple. Make the personal decision not to have children and abandon them. That makes life easier and simpler for the parents, the children, and the entire country. It doesn't take away all the problems, but it certainly helps not to exasperate the situation. Common sense.

How are you helping the local black community? Aside from your well-researched and imminently realistic suggestions, I mean.

It’s unrealistic to expect black people to be able to use common sense?
It’s unrealistic to expect black people to be able to use self control?
It’s unrealistic to expect black people to take responsibility for PERSONAL DECISIONS?
:shk:

How am I helping my local black community? I pay taxes. That’s it. It’s not my calling. Heck you just said ‘no thanks’ anyways. How are YOU helping your local poor white community??

Originally posted by HarlemHottie

Originally posted by FlyersFan
many of the problems in the black community are due to irresponsible personal decisions.

Like being born black and poor?

:shk:
For starters - When black men abandon their black children they perpetuate black Americans being poor. I already posted the link showing the economic and emotional impact of this.

Originally posted by HarlemHottie

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Telling black men not to abandon their children is a 'disinformation campain'?

Yes, for the most part, it is.

:shk: No. It's restating common sense.

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
You ignored the point. Did they, or did they not, employ the southern strategy against him?

I didn’t ignore it. I have no idea if they did or not. I REALLY like Harold Ford Jr. I have no idea what politics were in motion, or not in motion, during his campaign. I still have high hopes for him and the Senate. I wasn’t ignoring your question, I simply can not answer it.

editing quotes



[edit on 1/28/2007 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by ceci2006

Originally quoted by FlyersFan
Where? I don't see anyone fighting 'tooth and nail' to keep on disseminating it. Where is it in the media?

You haven't been reading this thread?

THIS thread is 'white people fighting tooth and nail to keep on disseminating??? oh gawd that's funny A few people on a thread at a website discussing the HUD secretary and his statement are 'white people fighting tooth and nail to keep on disseminating'!!

Then where do you get your realistic suggestions to the 'Black Community' from?

You are implying it's unrealistic to expect black people to make good personal decisions? Guess I hold black Americans in higher regard than you do.

Originally posted by HarlemHottie

Originally posted by jsobecky
You really have to stop living in the past.

Which just goes to show how very uninformed you really are.

The Harold Ford ad came out last year.

Deny ignorance, jso.

I'm well aware of when the ad came out. It was the same election-year that Allen lost his seat due to a racism ploy.

One has to wonder how many more Successful, Intelligent and Insightful black leaders would surface and speak out if they were not so denigrated by their own race.

They get so little support when all they are doing is what THEY feel is correct. Yet when they do, they are accused of all manner of racist actions and intentions.

Sad...

Yet it seems that being Black, having an opinion and not subscribing to the typical victim mentality, means you must suffer the consequences.

Semper

Originally quoted by FlyersFan
THIS thread is 'white people fighting tooth and nail to keep on disseminating??? oh gawd that's funny A few people on a thread at a website discussing the HUD secretary and his statement are 'white people fighting tooth and nail to keep on disseminating'!!

Frankly, yes.

You are implying it's unrealistic to expect black people to make good personal decisions?

How did you get that idea? Please explain and prove it.

Guess I hold black Americans in higher regard than you do.

Now, that's the funniest thing I've heard in a long time.



[edit on 28-1-2007 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by ceci2006
I've never heard her call someone a "one trick pony" or "passive/aggressive" as well.

STILL playing with that edit button, I see. How many edits did you do on this past post to get the wiseacre line just the way you wanted? 3 .. 4... times ? :shk:

It would be my pleasure to pull up all the crap you pulled to get yourself labeled as P/A, and also the crap you pulled to ultimately to get yourself banned. But that would be off topic.

Originally posted by semperfortis
Yet it seems that being Black, having an opinion and not subscribing to the typical victim mentality, means you must suffer the consequences.

And there we have it. The HUD Secretary, who happens to be black, speaks out on a common-sense issue that will help the black community and he gets nailed for it because it doesn't follow 'victim mentality'. :shk:

You are right semper .. sad, sad, sad.

.... And there is nothing else to say. Anything else is useless. I'm done.


[edit on 1/28/2007 by FlyersFan]

Originally quoted by FlyersFan

STILL playing with that edit button, I see. How many edits did you do on this past post to get the wiseacre line just the way you wanted? 3 .. 4... times ?

It would be my pleasure to pull up all the crap you pulled to get yourself labeled as P/A, and also the crap you pulled to ultimately to get yourself banned. But that would be off topic.

To be frank, I would much rather you not answer my posts. I would also prefer for you to leave me alone. That would solve a great deal of problems and keep the peace on the board.


[edit on 28-1-2007 by ceci2006]