LaHaye's "Rapture" Ideology Was Not Even Considered Until 1830

For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from
the beginning of the world until now, no human being would be saved;
for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened (Matthew 24:22).

Christ Himself says that there will be a time of trial for Christians just
before his second coming. He doesn’t say that anyone will be snatched
out of tribulation but the one ‘who endures to the end will be saved”
(Matthew 24:13; see also 10:22) The days of trial are not a time of
escape, but rather a time of sifting, proving, and purging the faithful.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
The answer to your question,Terral, ....

Terral isn't here anymore. He went bye-bye.

Originally posted by Terral
The powers that be here are making it very plain that I should find some other place to spend my time and with them (him actually) I wholeheartedly concur.

So SpeakerofHoff ( ) ... he won't hear ya'.

Originally posted by Terral
Speaker, Byrd, Queenie, Flyer, Marg (challenged):

Speaker >> Terral, since you are so keen on quoting scripture. I suggest that you and others who are looking for a miraculous sign or rapture to keep these words in mind. Matthew 16:2-4

Save it. You and Byrd, Queenie, Flyer and Marg owe the readers of this thread ‘your’ interpretations on the verses I provided above.

Actually, I'm not giving my interpretation. I'm using the interpretations written by other Christian scholars and looking for what the scholars of earlier ages said. The people whose material I cited spent a lot of time reading a lot of documents (letters between popes, churches, old Greek material dating from the 1st century and so forth.

The topic is "is LaHaye's Rapture Theology (with the beast, tribulation, etc, etc) the same as the Apostle Paul's theology. The contention is that "no, the beast-tribulation-watchers-armageddon-end-times" theology didn't come up until recently."

The writings I've seen by people who have done a lot more study tend to agree on this point. If Paul had held the belief, he would have taught it (about Armageddon and the beast and all.) Revelation was written years after Paul died and doesn't seem to represent anything being held in common belief of the Christians at that time period.

Originally posted by Valhall

Originally posted by Sun Matrix

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

One more time I'm going to ask. Show me where it says the rapture will take place prior to the tribulation. Bein's Christ isn't going to return until after the tribulation.

I don't see it.

Heh. Read LaHaye... that doctrine is all over his writings. He even wrote a book about it! www.armageddonbooks.com...

(no, I haven't read it. I don't care for LaHaye's writing style.)

Originally posted by Byrd

One more time I'm going to ask. Show me where it says the rapture will take place prior to the tribulation. Bein's Christ isn't going to return until after the tribulation.

I don't see it.

Heh. Read LaHaye... that doctrine is all over his writings. He even wrote a book about it! www.armageddonbooks.com...

(no, I haven't read it. I don't care for LaHaye's writing style.)

Well, it's got to be some where other than the scriptures being quoted. lol

Originally posted by Valhall
Well, it's got to be some where other than the scriptures being quoted. lol

In the imagination/mind of a sensational-fiction novelist (which is basically what LaHaye is) - likely amplified further in his bank account.

Prophet = profit

Here is my honest opinion of Lahaye. I think he is a man that came across an ideology that confines a person to the idea that they are "special" and he ran with it. In many respects, Lahaye is like a "cult" leader, he tears you down and then builds a person up.

People have a desire to know that they are special. The whole premise behind the "rapture" scenario is that church goers are somehow "special," deserving of the escape a "rapture" would supply.

Yes, how true that is.

That's man's kind of 'special' (I).

But, from my own personal experiences, I like God's version of special (you).

Man's idea of it somehow carries the idea that there is only so much of God's blessing or love to go around...and so it must be portioned out according to *whatever*.

But that's not how it is - each of us could know we have all of His love and still everyone else could have just as much for themselves, too.

~~

as this is sorta winding down

here's a thought, Today's "Rapture" eschatology-
(as it developed over 8 decades)
just may have led western thought and our christian leaders to decide
on the past & present geopolitical policies & strategies...
that have got us into this mess we are in today ?

after all, isn't there the mindset preeminent in Christians, that; 'All I have to do
is to vocally profess that Jesus is my personal savior'...and all will be well!
because, as a christian i will automatically excape the tribulations
of the 7 trumpets, the 7 vials, the 7 bowls of Judgements
which will befall all the non-christians, who will not be "Raptured"

Originally posted by St Udio
after all, isn't there the mindset preeminent in Christians, that; 'All I have to do
is to vocally profess that Jesus is my personal savior'...and all will be well!

The mindset of a real christian is this:
1. That person is convicted of their sin by the Holy Spirit and receives God's offer of forgiveness found only in Jesus Christ.
2. That person begins a relationship with God and begins to have sin weeded out of their life because they are being changed into a new creation by God. And that person wants to have sin removed from their life because they do not want to hurt Jesus anymore than they already have.
3. That person understands that everyone else is in the same boat that they once were in(needing the Savior).
4. That person wants NO ONE to spend eternity in hell, so that is why they tell others about Christ by their words actions and deeds.
5. That person also realizes that God has a timetable, so their own personal comfort zone must be destroyed and love for others must motivate them to spread the gospel.

A real christian gets absolutely no joy knowing that some people will experience the tribulation, BUTthat experience of the tribulation will bring millions to salvation. The tribulation and rapture will be the kick in the head that millions need to get their mind off of themselves and onto Christ for salvation.

Hi Byrd:

Byrd >> Actually, I'm not giving my interpretation. I'm using the interpretations written by other Christian scholars and looking for what the scholars of earlier ages said.

Of course not. Heh . . . That is the point. There are only so many ways to interpret Paul’s words in 1Corinthians 15:51-53 and 1Thessalonians 4:13-17, which renders the Thread Starter’s Hypothesis FALSE. We can all agree that LaHaye’s Interpretations on this topic are DEAD WRONG, but you are confusing his ‘eschatology’ of “end time” events with Paul’s teaching on the Rapture (1Thes. 4:17). The difference between you and me is I can write a boatload of commentary on this topic, but that would be moved to BTS if posted here. Thanks BTW. Those who cannot write two paragraphs on this topic can shout “NO RAPTURE” and allow third party commentators to water their boots and everybody is just fine. Heh . . .

The fact is that Paul’s teachings on this ‘mystery’ (1Cor. 15:51) topic were presented to the ‘churches’ of his Epistles between 50 and 70 AD and nothing anybody here can say will change that fact. Here they are one more time:

“Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory. "O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?" 1Corinthians 15:51-55.

“For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself WILL DESCEND FROM HEAVEN with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God [1Cor. 15:52] , and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds to MEET THE LORD in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.” 1Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Why are so many “NO RAPTURE” members afraid to give ‘their’ interpretations on these verses? Hmmmmm . . . Even though none of my work will ever be allowed remain in this ATS room, I can still write on your threads. : 0 )

GL in the debates,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

Originally posted by Terral
Why are so many “NO RAPTURE” members afraid to give ‘their’ interpretations on these verses? Hmmmmm . . . Even though none of my work will ever be allowed remain in this ATS room, I can still write on your threads. : 0 )

GL in the debates,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

Once again,Terral,I gave you my interpretation and you have yet to respond to it. Why is that,hmmmm?

[edit on 18-10-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]

Allow me to ask a question here. I hope it’s considered to be “on topic”. A little background: Any reasonable person can conclude that there is a difference of opinion as to whether or not there will be a Rapture. I hope.

And here’s the question: If there is to be no Rapture but you believe there will, is that more or less damaging than believing there will be no Rapture but there really is? I mean, one side or the other is incorrect here, no?

We’ll either see the Second Coming in our lifetimes or we won’t. If we don’t, it doesn’t matter to us individually, does it? If we’re here for the Second Coming and expect a Rapture and it doesn’t come, wouldn’t that be worse than not expecting one but it happens anyway?

I don’t see anything in the Bible that can remotely be considered to be a requirement to believe in a Rapture.

I frequently think the basic message we're supposed to receive is drowned out by the minutiae and fine details. And you know what's in the details, right?

Originally posted by Terral


Why are so many “NO RAPTURE” members afraid to give ‘their’ interpretations on these verses? Hmmmmm . . . Even though none of my work will ever be allowed remain in this ATS room, I can still write on your threads. : 0 )

GL in the debates,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

Terral,

Since you have me on ignore you won't possibly be able to be all too offended by the following statement:

"No pre-tribulation rapture" members are responding with the correct interpretation of those scriptures...but some kumquat has them on ignore, and/or refuses to read their posts in between his verbose, repetitive and obtuse self-indulgences.

Hi Speaker:

Speaker >> Once again, Terral, I gave you my interpretation and you have yet to respond to it. Why is that, hmmmm?

Please forgive, but I have been writing on many Boards and have spread myself too thin. I was not at all pleased to have all of my threads chucked down to BTS over this Rapture nonsense, but I got over it. : 0 ) Reading Byrd’s recent post gave me the stimulus to make a few comments. Please give me until tomorrow to find your post, which you might have linked me to in your recent reply. The funny thing is that my ‘mystery’ posts were the closest thing to ATS, according to the true definition of ‘musterion’ (Mystery = #3466). www.blueletterbible.org...

Poof! They went bye, bye. Hey, but if you can’t see it anyway, then nothing is lost at all. : 0 )

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

Originally posted by dbrandt

Originally posted by St Udio
after all, isn't there the mindset preeminent in Christians, that; 'All I have to do
is to vocally profess that Jesus is my personal savior'...and all will be well!

The mindset of a real christian is this:

...and you go into a fine rendition of 5 points
that are the epitome of Christian (or any religions') Idealistic aspirations...

And you finalise with this:

...A real christian gets absolutely no joy knowing that some people will experience the tribulation, BUTthat experience of the tribulation will bring millions to salvation. The tribulation and rapture will be the kick in the head that millions need to get their mind off of themselves and onto Christ for salvation.

who can argue against that?

the only modifier i suggest is to revise the number of the affected...from "millions" to a more realistic "Billions" of tortured souls that are not acceptable for receiving salvation, because they resolved to take care of themselves as best they could manage....instead of 'surrendering' to a Faith/Belief of The Annointed One (Christ).

actually, when one starts breaking down the trib/rapture eschatology (end times)
the more it starts unraveling & falling apart...at least to my intellect & spiritual side

take care....

Originally posted by Byrd
If Paul had held the belief, he would have taught it (about Armageddon and the beast and all.) Revelation was written years after Paul died and doesn't seem to represent anything being held in common belief of the Christians at that time period.

2nd Thessalonians 2: 1-2
Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come.

Is this Paul's version of comforting believers who believed in the Rapture (though not given that name) in the first century? Evidently many were worried that Jesus had already come back and they had missed it. I think this is pretty good proof that teaching of this sort has been around for a long time.

2nd Thessalonians 2: 3-4
Don't let anyone deceive you in any way for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man lawlessness [man of sin] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction [son of perdition - KJV]. He opposes and exalts himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, and even sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God."

This is my favorite "rapture" verse. Paul seems to be indicating that Christians will see the arrival of the "man of sin" (reads anti-Christ) before Jesus comes back. If there is a rapture, I don't believe it will happen before the beginning of the Tribulation period if at all.

1. That person is convicted of their sin by the Holy Spirit and receives God's offer of forgiveness found only in Jesus Christ.

1. That person has become brainwashed and undergoes a psychotic break, suddenly believing that they have experienced the presence and egorub of Superman.

2. That person begins a relationship with God and begins to have sin weeded out of their life because they are being changed into a new creation by God. And that person wants to have sin removed from their life because they do not want to hurt Jesus anymore than they already have.

2. That person begins a relationship with an imaginary friend. Even though all Christians claim to have a relationship with this same Superman, Superman never seems able to convey information between anyone. That person then goes about changing their whole life so they are no longer themselves but a mindless drone endlessly repeating pointless scripture like every other mindless drone.

3. That person understands that everyone else is in the same boat that they once were in(needing the Savior).

3. That person understands that no one wants to die but competely ignores the reality that death is the inevitable consequence of life. They've scrubbed death out of their minds and without that fear they feel "happy" in a delusional sort of way. Also, without the natural fear of death, suicide suddenly becomes easy. If that person should become desperate. Be sure you are far away.

4. That person wants NO ONE to spend eternity in hell, so that is why they tell others about Christ by their words actions and deeds.

4. That person becomes insanely obsessed with infecting others with their mental virus. Their friends and associates may become annoyed by their constant preaching and attempts at testimony. That person wil eventually foind people in desperate situations that are weak and vulnerable to disease of this virus's sort.

5. That person also realizes that God has a timetable, so their own personal comfort zone must be destroyed and love for others must motivate them to spread the gospel.

5. That person thinks Superman has a plan. It involves Iraq, that old whore Babylon, who coincidentaly held Israel hostage while such vengeful nonsense was contrived. Once the Jews rebuild their Temple, they'll be wiped out, just as Uncle Mel says they deserve.

Why is anyone still a Christian. Christianity is superficially ridiculous.

Jesus death was equivalent to changing clothes, not a sacrifice. Death is dead to Christians. Kill the meaning of death and death can mean anything. In order for Jesus death to mean anything he would really have to be dead. If he is dead, then his sacrifice can't save my life.

This simple logic proves salvation is totally impossible.

Columbus
The True Messenger

Thanks, Columbus. But you are on the wrong thread. Go find a "why i don't (or do) believe in salvation" thread and recast your pearls. You are severely off-topic.

There is no point wasting your time discussing pre-trib vs post-trib, rapture vs no-rapture. Christianity is false and all variations are equally false.