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LaHaye's "Rapture" Ideology Was Not Even Considered Until 1830
page: 10share:
Originally posted by AlteredStates
Oh and to post something on topic i believe the rapture was taught WAY earlier than 1800's but i cant prove it so ill shut up now.
You are right. The "catching up" of believers was taught by the first century church fathers. But it was not in the pre-tribulation context. It was in post-tribulation (or at best mid-tribulation) context. That's my argument, that the scriptures, and the earliest believers speak of a "catching up" and the resurrection of the dead believers at the time of Christ's coming. He doesn't come pre-tribulation. And according to some early church fathers it appears the resurrection of the nonbelievers would not occur until after the 1000 year reign of Christ on earth. That makes sense to me since in the Revelation judgement appears to happen later than Christ's return.
[edit on 10-19-2006 by Valhall]
Originally posted by Valhall
You are right. The "catching up" of believers was taught by the first century church fathers. But it was not in the pre-tribulation context.
Can you show where you found this out from?
Originally posted by AlteredStates
You are right. The "catching up" of believers was taught by the first century church fathers. But it was not in the pre-tribulation context. It was in post-tribulation (or at best mid-tribulation) context. That's my argument, that the scriptures, and the earliest believers speak of a "catching up" and the resurrection of the dead believers at the time of Christ's coming. He doesn't come pre-tribulation. And according to some early church fathers it appears the resurrection of the nonbelievers would not occur until after the 1000 year reign of Christ on earth. That makes sense to me since in the Revelation judgement appears to happen later than Christ's return.
[edit on 10-19-2006 by Valhall]
If there is any "rapture" at all it will be post tribulation. The tribulation is intended to test the faith of the church. Now, if all of these believers, are so highly esteemed that they are to be "wisped away" before it really gets interesting,depending on how you want to look at it, then how are believers being tested? They're not. If you want to buy into this pre-tribulational theory that modern day "christians" seem so hept about, go ahead. It's only a road that's going to lead to disappointment.
[edit on 19-10-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]
By the way, all of these people who think that just because someone can sit and quote verse after verse of the bible and that that makes that someone
knowledgeable is sadly mistaken. Anyone can quote a verse and cease to think for him/herself.
[edit on 19-10-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]
[edit on 19-10-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]
Originally posted by dbrandt
Can you show where you found this out from?
dbrandt,
I did! You can go back several pages in this thread, or you could click the link in my sig to my blog entry. I tried to quote as many of the early church fathers as I could. (within the first three centuries)
Speaker, Valhall and All:
Well, I woke up this morning expecting to see answers from SpeakerOfTruth to my two posts ( www.abovetopsecret.com... and www.abovetopsecret.com... , but those replies must still be in the works.
I was also hoping with great anticipation that Valhall would accept the challenge to post her “Rapture Blog” as a new thread, so we can stop misusing Speaker’s with this unusual ‘LaHaye’ thesis twist. Apparently she is still trying to muster up the courage . . . However, since Valhall has posted her blog on this thread and nobody has complained to date, then our gracious Mods and Speaker appear willing to allow opposing views to her many bold assertions. This is after all the only “Rapture” Thread allowed to remain on the first ten pages of the “Conspiracies In Religions” Forum. Ms. Valhall’s full blog can be seen here:
blog.abovetopsecret.com...
What kind of thesis begins by seeking to prove a ‘False Teaching’ in the first place? Does Paul connect our ‘Rapture’ (1Thes. 4:17) to the Exodus or ANY event of Old Testament prophesy? No. Therefore, she is simply leading you by ‘her’ willingness to make connections between Moses and the Exodus and a ‘mystery’ (1Cor. 15:51) event seen by no Old Testament Prophets at all. Her thesis is based upon providing corroborating ‘evidence’ about a Rapture doctrine ‘she’ believes to be FALSE in the first place.
Think about that simple statement very carefully: If Paul’s teachings in 1Corinthians 15:51-53 and 1Thessalonians 4:13-17 on our “Rapture” are FALSE, then what ‘is’ Paul teaching to these churches receiving his Epistles? Why is Ms. Valhall focusing upon what is FALSE, when her hypothesis should be concentrating upon the ‘true’ aspects of what ‘is’ being taught??? How do we know for certain that her line of evidence is deceptive and totally off the Rapture topic altogether? Paul does teach the Corinthians about Moses and the Exodus, but NOT in this Rapture context at all:
The ‘Red Sea’ is NOT the divider separating the Promised Land from the Wilderness. No sir. Only two of God’s witnesses passed through the Red Sea to also cross the “Jordan River” as if on dry land and their names were Joshua and Caleb. Numbers 14:30. Joshua’s name is “Y@howshuwa’ (#3091)” meaning “Jehovah is salvation” and Caleb’s name (Kaleb #3612) means “dog.” These are types of “Christ” descending to the ‘wilderness’ side of the Jordan (our world) to gather His ‘Gentile’ (Matt. 15:26 = dogs) ‘body of Christ’ to then return through the veil into heaven (1Thes. 4:17). Moses and EVERYONE ELSE were buried on the ‘Wilderness’ side of the Jordan, before ever entering the Promised Land. Are the members of Christ’s body (1Cor. 12:27) translated to immortality (1Cor. 15:53) OR do they die on the wilderness side (world) to become members of the “body of Moses” (Jude 1:9)? Valhall’s analogies and symbolisms simply do NOT make any Biblical sense whatsoever . . .
[To Be Continued]
In Christ Jesus,
Terral
[edit on 20-10-2006 by Terral]
Well, I woke up this morning expecting to see answers from SpeakerOfTruth to my two posts ( www.abovetopsecret.com... and www.abovetopsecret.com... , but those replies must still be in the works.
I was also hoping with great anticipation that Valhall would accept the challenge to post her “Rapture Blog” as a new thread, so we can stop misusing Speaker’s with this unusual ‘LaHaye’ thesis twist. Apparently she is still trying to muster up the courage . . . However, since Valhall has posted her blog on this thread and nobody has complained to date, then our gracious Mods and Speaker appear willing to allow opposing views to her many bold assertions. This is after all the only “Rapture” Thread allowed to remain on the first ten pages of the “Conspiracies In Religions” Forum. Ms. Valhall’s full blog can be seen here:
blog.abovetopsecret.com...
Valhall >> The False Teaching of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture: The Exodus can be taken as a foreshadowing of the preservation of the righteous who endure the trials. They were not taken from Egypt prior to having to endure the plagues. Their faith and obedience had to endure through the trials before they were freed.
What kind of thesis begins by seeking to prove a ‘False Teaching’ in the first place? Does Paul connect our ‘Rapture’ (1Thes. 4:17) to the Exodus or ANY event of Old Testament prophesy? No. Therefore, she is simply leading you by ‘her’ willingness to make connections between Moses and the Exodus and a ‘mystery’ (1Cor. 15:51) event seen by no Old Testament Prophets at all. Her thesis is based upon providing corroborating ‘evidence’ about a Rapture doctrine ‘she’ believes to be FALSE in the first place.
Think about that simple statement very carefully: If Paul’s teachings in 1Corinthians 15:51-53 and 1Thessalonians 4:13-17 on our “Rapture” are FALSE, then what ‘is’ Paul teaching to these churches receiving his Epistles? Why is Ms. Valhall focusing upon what is FALSE, when her hypothesis should be concentrating upon the ‘true’ aspects of what ‘is’ being taught??? How do we know for certain that her line of evidence is deceptive and totally off the Rapture topic altogether? Paul does teach the Corinthians about Moses and the Exodus, but NOT in this Rapture context at all:
“For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; and all were baptized into Moses [body of Moses = Jude 1:9] in the cloud and in the sea; and all ate the same spiritual food; and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. Nevertheless [this blows her theory], with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were LAID LOW low in the wilderness.” 1Corinthians 10:1-5.
The ‘Red Sea’ is NOT the divider separating the Promised Land from the Wilderness. No sir. Only two of God’s witnesses passed through the Red Sea to also cross the “Jordan River” as if on dry land and their names were Joshua and Caleb. Numbers 14:30. Joshua’s name is “Y@howshuwa’ (#3091)” meaning “Jehovah is salvation” and Caleb’s name (Kaleb #3612) means “dog.” These are types of “Christ” descending to the ‘wilderness’ side of the Jordan (our world) to gather His ‘Gentile’ (Matt. 15:26 = dogs) ‘body of Christ’ to then return through the veil into heaven (1Thes. 4:17). Moses and EVERYONE ELSE were buried on the ‘Wilderness’ side of the Jordan, before ever entering the Promised Land. Are the members of Christ’s body (1Cor. 12:27) translated to immortality (1Cor. 15:53) OR do they die on the wilderness side (world) to become members of the “body of Moses” (Jude 1:9)? Valhall’s analogies and symbolisms simply do NOT make any Biblical sense whatsoever . . .
[To Be Continued]
In Christ Jesus,
Terral
[edit on 20-10-2006 by Terral]
Speaker, Valhall and All:
Our what? There is no such thing in your Bible. Scripture specifically refers to “types” (tupos #2076) meaning ( www.blueletterbible.org... ):
Your line is reasoning here is flawed by the fact that God sent His Only Begotten Son into the world (John 3:16) to save sinners (1Tim. 1:15+16). That means God predestined His Son to die on the cross as the perfect “Lamb of God” (John 1:29), even if He preached the “gospel of the kingdom” (Matt. 4:23, 9:35, etc.) as the prophetic “King.” The members of “Christ’s body” (1Cor. 12:27 = that’s us) become active participants in His death, burial (crucified with Christ = Gal. 2:20) AND resurrection (Col. 3:1) to be seated with Christ in the heavenly places “IN” Christ Jesus (Eph. 2:6). The fact is that our mystery “body of Christ” (Eph. 4:12) will be “caught up” (1Thes. 4:17) in the same way that Christ ascended into heaven (Acts 1:9-11). The Holy Spirit will then return to the awaiting Elijah in the same way the disciples received the Holy Spirit on the “Day of Pentecost” (Acts 2:1-4). Also, your refusal to recognize the “Only Begotten Son” with the appropriate ‘Caps’ is being noted . . .
Your words here have some resemblance of the truth. However, Paul characterizes our trials on this earth as “persevering in tribulation” (Romans 12:12), saying “that tribulation brings about perseverance” (Romans 5:3). He writes,
Ms. Valhall is merely assuming the ‘Great Tribulation’ (Matt. 24:21) very near the ‘end of the age’ (Matt. 24:3+) is ‘our tribulation,’ when NOTHING could be farther from the truth. Paul speaks about the ‘body of Christ,’ saying
This explains why Paul tells the Thessalonians to ‘lead a quiet life’ (1Thes. 4:11), just prior to revealing the details of our Rapture (1Thes. 4:13-17); to then say, “Therefore comfort one another with these words.” 1Thes. 4:18. If Ms. Valhall is truly seeking to write on the truth of Paul’s “Rapture” (1Thes. 4:17) teaching, then why avoid quoting Paul at the very top of her Rapture blog?? We have been in the desert with Moses and in the Garden with Christ, but where is Paul’s words on this topic??? We appear to be taking the long route to RaptureVille . . .
What the?? Anyone with the desire to see ‘the truth’ on this Rapture topic can do that right now to gather an accurate context ( www.belowtopsecret.com... ) and return to this debate. This dribble about “ante-Nicene” church fathers (Heh) is to the men of the Roman Catholic Denomination, which has NOTHING to do with Paul’s Rapture teaching. God is speaking to you THROUGH PAUL ( Lord’s Commandment = 1Cor. 14:37+38) and NOT through any RC church fathers. Scripture declares that Paul is your father “IN” Christ “through the gospel.” 1Corinthians 4:15.
Valhall’s statement that “the words of Christ” represent the “superior authority on the matter” are 100 percent truth (congratulations). However, we must include the vital component of ‘context.’ She is making the same mistake as LaHaye, Darby and practically every modern day scholar on the planet by merely assuming Christ (Matt. 24) is talking in the same ‘context’ as Paul’s “Rapture” (1Thes. 4:17). There are NO “Rapture” (Harpazo #726) references in Matthew 24 at all! These Bible Mythologists plant the idea in your head that Christ is talking about events of 1Cor. 15 and 1Thes. 4, when that is certainly NOT the truth at all. This is the same problem I have with everyone teaching the pre, mid AND post-tribulation Rapture theories.
[To Be Continued]
Valhall >> Christ, as always, was our prototype.
Our what? There is no such thing in your Bible. Scripture specifically refers to “types” (tupos #2076) meaning ( www.blueletterbible.org... ):
Strong’s Lexicon >> 1) the mark of a stroke or blow, print
2) a figure formed by a blow or impression
a) of a figure or image
b) of the image of the gods
3) form
a) the teaching which embodies the sum and substance of religion and represents it to the mind, manner of writing, the contents and form of a letter
4) an example
a) in the technical sense, the pattern in conformity to which a thing must be made
b) in an ethical sense, a dissuasive example, a pattern of warning
1) of ruinous events which serve as admonitions or warnings to others
c) an example to be imitated
1) of men worthy of imitation
d) in a doctrinal sense
1) of a type i.e. a person or thing prefiguring a future (Messianic) person or thing
Valhall Continues >> His prayer in the Garden of Gethsemane was that if it was the will of God that this cup pass from him; that he not be required to endure the suffering, the trials that awaited him. But he had to endure the trials before attaining the resurrection. What person on this earth can deem themselves more worthy to be dismissed from any trial of their faith than the only begotten son of God would have been?
Your line is reasoning here is flawed by the fact that God sent His Only Begotten Son into the world (John 3:16) to save sinners (1Tim. 1:15+16). That means God predestined His Son to die on the cross as the perfect “Lamb of God” (John 1:29), even if He preached the “gospel of the kingdom” (Matt. 4:23, 9:35, etc.) as the prophetic “King.” The members of “Christ’s body” (1Cor. 12:27 = that’s us) become active participants in His death, burial (crucified with Christ = Gal. 2:20) AND resurrection (Col. 3:1) to be seated with Christ in the heavenly places “IN” Christ Jesus (Eph. 2:6). The fact is that our mystery “body of Christ” (Eph. 4:12) will be “caught up” (1Thes. 4:17) in the same way that Christ ascended into heaven (Acts 1:9-11). The Holy Spirit will then return to the awaiting Elijah in the same way the disciples received the Holy Spirit on the “Day of Pentecost” (Acts 2:1-4). Also, your refusal to recognize the “Only Begotten Son” with the appropriate ‘Caps’ is being noted . . .
Valhall >> As Christ endured his tribulation, was then resurrected and transfigured and finally ascended to heaven to be with his Father, so shall the church be required to endure some portion, if not all, of the Tribulation before being "caught up", changed in the twinkiling of an eye, an taken into the Kingdom of God.
Your words here have some resemblance of the truth. However, Paul characterizes our trials on this earth as “persevering in tribulation” (Romans 12:12), saying “that tribulation brings about perseverance” (Romans 5:3). He writes,
“Therefore I ask you not to lose heart at my tribulations on your behalf, for they are your glory.” Ephesians 3:13.
“You also became imitators of us and of the Lord, having received the word in much tribulation with the joy of the Holy Spirit . . .”. 1Thessalonians 1:6.
Ms. Valhall is merely assuming the ‘Great Tribulation’ (Matt. 24:21) very near the ‘end of the age’ (Matt. 24:3+) is ‘our tribulation,’ when NOTHING could be farther from the truth. Paul speaks about the ‘body of Christ,’ saying
“But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.” Romans 5:8-10.
This explains why Paul tells the Thessalonians to ‘lead a quiet life’ (1Thes. 4:11), just prior to revealing the details of our Rapture (1Thes. 4:13-17); to then say, “Therefore comfort one another with these words.” 1Thes. 4:18. If Ms. Valhall is truly seeking to write on the truth of Paul’s “Rapture” (1Thes. 4:17) teaching, then why avoid quoting Paul at the very top of her Rapture blog?? We have been in the desert with Moses and in the Garden with Christ, but where is Paul’s words on this topic??? We appear to be taking the long route to RaptureVille . . .
Valhall >> But above all that the ante-Nicene church fathers said on this subject, as with all subjects of faith we should always take the words of Christ as the superior authority on the matter. And Christ, himself, clearly laid out the timeline of tribulation and the resurrection of the dead in Christ and "rapture" of the living believers.
What the?? Anyone with the desire to see ‘the truth’ on this Rapture topic can do that right now to gather an accurate context ( www.belowtopsecret.com... ) and return to this debate. This dribble about “ante-Nicene” church fathers (Heh) is to the men of the Roman Catholic Denomination, which has NOTHING to do with Paul’s Rapture teaching. God is speaking to you THROUGH PAUL ( Lord’s Commandment = 1Cor. 14:37+38) and NOT through any RC church fathers. Scripture declares that Paul is your father “IN” Christ “through the gospel.” 1Corinthians 4:15.
Valhall’s statement that “the words of Christ” represent the “superior authority on the matter” are 100 percent truth (congratulations). However, we must include the vital component of ‘context.’ She is making the same mistake as LaHaye, Darby and practically every modern day scholar on the planet by merely assuming Christ (Matt. 24) is talking in the same ‘context’ as Paul’s “Rapture” (1Thes. 4:17). There are NO “Rapture” (Harpazo #726) references in Matthew 24 at all! These Bible Mythologists plant the idea in your head that Christ is talking about events of 1Cor. 15 and 1Thes. 4, when that is certainly NOT the truth at all. This is the same problem I have with everyone teaching the pre, mid AND post-tribulation Rapture theories.
[To Be Continued]
Originally posted by Terral
There are NO “Rapture” (Harpazo #726) references in Matthew 24 at all! These Bible Mythologists plant the idea in your head that Christ is talking about events of 1Cor. 15 and 1Thes. 4, when that is certainly NOT the truth at all. This is the same problem I have with everyone teaching the pre, mid AND post-tribulation Rapture theories.
Really, then what's this.
Matthew 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. 45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. 48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; 49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; 50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, 51 And shall cut 47 him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
For a self proclaimed Scholar..........................???????????????
You might start by figuring out the name of your God.
Valhall and All:
Many people who did take the time to read my post above already realize with a degree of certainty that Paul is describing how the 1000 Years (2Pet. 3:8, Rev. 20:5) “Day of the Lord” (2Pet. 3:10, 1Thes. 5:1+2) will B.E.G.I.N., while Christ (Matthew 24) is describing how the same 1000 Years Period will E.N.D! That places the ‘1000 Years’ of the “Day of the Lord” BETWEEN the events of 1Thes. 4:17 (our Rapture) and the ‘body of Christ’ appearing with Christ IN GLORY (Matt. 24:30-31) in Matthew 24.
Paul is describing our “Body Rapture” (1Thes. 4:17) that STARTS the “1000 Year Day of the Lord” shaded in blue on the right side of the diagram. You and I are still living within the ‘red’ (2000 Year Mystery Time) that NONE of the OT prophets were given to see between the two veils marked by Paul’s conversion (Acts 9:15) and our Rapture (1Thes. 4:17) where “the Mystery” (Eph. 3:3) is currently being “Revealed.” Daniel (Matt. 24:15) and all the OT prophets can see clearly into the upcoming 1000 Years Day of the Lord, but their vision passed over the top of this current “Dispensation of God’s grace” (Eph. 3:2) and “This Mystery Among The Gentiles” (Col. 1:27). The common error of practically all the modern day scholars is they blend the blood and water (1John 5:6 = Christ came in BOTH) ministries of Christ together, which forces them to bind Paul’s mystery Rapture with Christ’s ‘end of the age’ prophecies. Instead of a ‘blood (Paul’s Epistles) AND water (Kingdom Epistles)’ New Testament, they toss everything into a single pot to take out what tastes good to each individual denomination. In short, Ms. Vallhall here is making the same mistake as all the other so-called Bible ‘scholars’ of our day, just as they have been doing for most of the past 2000 years.
They do not have sufficient knowledge on the events of the “Day of the Lord” to even be writing on this “Rapture” Topic! That kind of knowledge would make them realize the ‘times and epochs’ (1Thes. 5:1+2) and the restoration of the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6+7) are included ‘within’ that 1000 Year Period that MUST take place BEFORE the ‘end of the age.’ In other words, Elijah must appear shortly after our Rapture to ‘restore all things’ (Matt. 17:10-11), which includes the Kingdom to Israel (Ezekiel 47+48) and the Temple (Ezekiel 40+) the antichrist comes to make desolate (Matt. 15:24) BEFORE Christ can even think about returning (Matt. 24:20+31). That Kingdom and Temple have been on the earth for almost 1000 years, BEFORE the antichrist appears in Matthew 24:15. Where does that fit into Valhall’s theories?
The fact is that Christ’s ‘end of the age’ 2nd Coming (Matt. 24:30+31) is over 1000 years in the future of this earth. We are still living within the same Mystery Time that finds the Thessalonians anticipating the ‘coming’ (2Thes. 2:2) of the START of the “Day of the Lord” that has a 1000 Years “DURATION.” What does Paul teach concerning our returning WITH Christ?
Read again how Christ returns in glory!
The ‘body of Christ’ (Eph. 4:12) taken to START the 1000 Years Day of the Lord return ‘with Him’ right here in Matthew 24 with ‘great glory.’ How can Valhall prove that we are revealed with Christ at any other time in glory (Col. 3:4), when this is the accounting of His Second Coming??? Could Paul possibly be teaching our revealing with Him at any time OTHER than Matthew 24:30+31?? No! That is impossible, because that requires us to invent another “Coming” that is taught in Scripture NO PLACE. Christ came for His body church (Col. 1:24) as a ‘mystery’ (1Cor. 15:51) coming that the world was NOT GIVEN TO SEE to ‘start’ the 1000 Years. Does Paul teach that Christ’s angels had the trumpet of God and Christ’s angels did the gathering for his “Rapture” (1Thes. 4:17). No!
Where are the angels in this picture? Nowhere! Why? Because, Paul is describing events taking place some 1000 years BEFORE the events of Matthew 24. The two events are separated by 1000 Years of the “Day of the Lord” itself.
No, what is sad is that Valhall should be writing a paragraph or two of meaningful commentary, but instead she uses this opportunity to grandstand to the third party readers. She simply assumes the ‘end of the age’ (Matt. 24:3+) coincides with Paul’s words on when the “Day of the Lord” “COMES” (2Thes. 2:2). Has Valhall managed to connect anything in Matthew 24 to Paul’s teachings in 1Cor. 15:51-53 OR 1Thes. 4:13-17? No. She has not even made the attempt! Why?
[To Be Continued]
Many people who did take the time to read my post above already realize with a degree of certainty that Paul is describing how the 1000 Years (2Pet. 3:8, Rev. 20:5) “Day of the Lord” (2Pet. 3:10, 1Thes. 5:1+2) will B.E.G.I.N., while Christ (Matthew 24) is describing how the same 1000 Years Period will E.N.D! That places the ‘1000 Years’ of the “Day of the Lord” BETWEEN the events of 1Thes. 4:17 (our Rapture) and the ‘body of Christ’ appearing with Christ IN GLORY (Matt. 24:30-31) in Matthew 24.
Paul is describing our “Body Rapture” (1Thes. 4:17) that STARTS the “1000 Year Day of the Lord” shaded in blue on the right side of the diagram. You and I are still living within the ‘red’ (2000 Year Mystery Time) that NONE of the OT prophets were given to see between the two veils marked by Paul’s conversion (Acts 9:15) and our Rapture (1Thes. 4:17) where “the Mystery” (Eph. 3:3) is currently being “Revealed.” Daniel (Matt. 24:15) and all the OT prophets can see clearly into the upcoming 1000 Years Day of the Lord, but their vision passed over the top of this current “Dispensation of God’s grace” (Eph. 3:2) and “This Mystery Among The Gentiles” (Col. 1:27). The common error of practically all the modern day scholars is they blend the blood and water (1John 5:6 = Christ came in BOTH) ministries of Christ together, which forces them to bind Paul’s mystery Rapture with Christ’s ‘end of the age’ prophecies. Instead of a ‘blood (Paul’s Epistles) AND water (Kingdom Epistles)’ New Testament, they toss everything into a single pot to take out what tastes good to each individual denomination. In short, Ms. Vallhall here is making the same mistake as all the other so-called Bible ‘scholars’ of our day, just as they have been doing for most of the past 2000 years.
They do not have sufficient knowledge on the events of the “Day of the Lord” to even be writing on this “Rapture” Topic! That kind of knowledge would make them realize the ‘times and epochs’ (1Thes. 5:1+2) and the restoration of the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6+7) are included ‘within’ that 1000 Year Period that MUST take place BEFORE the ‘end of the age.’ In other words, Elijah must appear shortly after our Rapture to ‘restore all things’ (Matt. 17:10-11), which includes the Kingdom to Israel (Ezekiel 47+48) and the Temple (Ezekiel 40+) the antichrist comes to make desolate (Matt. 15:24) BEFORE Christ can even think about returning (Matt. 24:20+31). That Kingdom and Temple have been on the earth for almost 1000 years, BEFORE the antichrist appears in Matthew 24:15. Where does that fit into Valhall’s theories?
The fact is that Christ’s ‘end of the age’ 2nd Coming (Matt. 24:30+31) is over 1000 years in the future of this earth. We are still living within the same Mystery Time that finds the Thessalonians anticipating the ‘coming’ (2Thes. 2:2) of the START of the “Day of the Lord” that has a 1000 Years “DURATION.” What does Paul teach concerning our returning WITH Christ?
“Therefore IF [huge qualifier] you have been raised up with Christ [see Eph. 2:4-6], keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth. For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, is revealed [Matthew 24:30+31], then YOU ALSO will be revealed with Him in glory.” Colossians 3:1-4.
Read again how Christ returns in glory!
"And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds [see Acts 1:9-11 = same way] of the sky with power and GREAT GLORY [Col. 3:4]. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His Elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.” Matthew 24:30+31.
The ‘body of Christ’ (Eph. 4:12) taken to START the 1000 Years Day of the Lord return ‘with Him’ right here in Matthew 24 with ‘great glory.’ How can Valhall prove that we are revealed with Christ at any other time in glory (Col. 3:4), when this is the accounting of His Second Coming??? Could Paul possibly be teaching our revealing with Him at any time OTHER than Matthew 24:30+31?? No! That is impossible, because that requires us to invent another “Coming” that is taught in Scripture NO PLACE. Christ came for His body church (Col. 1:24) as a ‘mystery’ (1Cor. 15:51) coming that the world was NOT GIVEN TO SEE to ‘start’ the 1000 Years. Does Paul teach that Christ’s angels had the trumpet of God and Christ’s angels did the gathering for his “Rapture” (1Thes. 4:17). No!
“For the Lord HIMSELF will descend FROM HEAVEN with a shout, with the voice of the archangel AND with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.” 1Thessalonians 4:16-17.
Where are the angels in this picture? Nowhere! Why? Because, Paul is describing events taking place some 1000 years BEFORE the events of Matthew 24. The two events are separated by 1000 Years of the “Day of the Lord” itself.
Valhall’s Quote >> Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened . . .”. Matthew 24: 29-31
Valhall’s Commentary >> It is sad that anything else should be said on this matter once Christ has instructed us, but because of the deceptive teachings that have infiltrated the Christian doctrine over the centuries since Christ's ascension, we are left to bring together those teachers who immediately followed him....as if he needs men's support in order to be believed.
No, what is sad is that Valhall should be writing a paragraph or two of meaningful commentary, but instead she uses this opportunity to grandstand to the third party readers. She simply assumes the ‘end of the age’ (Matt. 24:3+) coincides with Paul’s words on when the “Day of the Lord” “COMES” (2Thes. 2:2). Has Valhall managed to connect anything in Matthew 24 to Paul’s teachings in 1Cor. 15:51-53 OR 1Thes. 4:13-17? No. She has not even made the attempt! Why?
[To Be Continued]
I haven't made the attempt to make Paul's words superior to Christ because unlike you I see no spiritual need to.
Valhall and All:
If anyone decides to write an Opening Post or a Blog on the “Rapture,” the first order of business is to “quote” Paul writing on the Topic of the Rapture! THEN provide the ‘evidence’ to support the premise of your thesis. We must remember that Valhall is seeking to prove “The False Teaching of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture.” In order for the ‘timing’ of Paul’s “Rapture” (1Thes. 4:17) to be called ‘pre’ tribulation, then one must only prove we are ‘caught up’ BEFORE the “Great Tribulation” of Matthew 24. Therefore, since we can prove that Paul’s Rapture is connected to when the “Day of the Lord” (1Thes. 5:1+2) “COMES” (2Thes. 2:2), that places our Rapture some 1000 years before the Great Tribulation at the ‘end of the age.’ Therefore, Valhall’s Thesis for her Blog is certainly FALSE, because our Rapture takes place at the START of the 1000 years and long before any events of Christ’s Olivet Discourse even begin.
Nothing Irenaeus has to say challenges one thing Paul wrote on this “Rapture” Topic to the Corinthian church (1Cor. 15:51-53) or the Thessalonian church (1Thes. 4:13-17). We should find it amusing that she quotes Irenaeus and Hermas (Heh) rather than God speaking to us through the Apostle Paul in His Living Word. She sure runs around seeking advice from mere men with great dedication, when she should consult Scripture instead. 2Timothy 3:16+17.
Heh . . . You have GOT TO BE KIDDING! The fact that you quote these people and fail to address anything written by Paul is appalling and ridiculous! Where do we find First or Second Tertullian in God’s Word, or Hermas’ Epistle to the Romans? Your half-baked theology is based upon the dead works of a bunch of dead guys, instead of upon the Living Word of God. So, I am quoting Paul in 1Thes. 4:13-17 to you and you are quoting Hermas and Tertullian back at me. Heh . . . That is the sound of our third party judges laughing in the background . . .
No sir. This is the opinion of Valhall’s overactive imagination. Does Paul mention any “Great Tribulation” to the Corinthians or the Thessalonians? No. You are trying to plant that evidence to deceive our third party judges. She FAILS to realize that Christ’s “His Body” Church (Col. 1:24) returns with Him in glory (Col. 3:4). Christ cannot possibly be teaching anybody about the “His Body” Church gathered through this “mystery among THE GENTILES” (Col. 1:27), because He is sent to “Israel Only” (Matt. 15:24) and addressing Jews in Matthew 24; as if Paul’s “dispensation of God’s grace” (Eph. 3:2) would never even exist!
Remember always that Jesus Christ is addressing Israel ONLY (Matt. 15:24) in the Four Gospels, but Paul received the “visions and revelations of the Lord” (2Cor. 12:1) from our Lord Jesus in HEAVEN after His resurrection! Should “Christ’s body” called into existence through our gospel (2Cor. 4:3-4) given to Paul (Gal. 1:11-12) follow the marching orders given to ISRAEL, while Christ walked the earth, OR the final marching orders given as the “Lord’s Commandment” (1Cor. 14:37-38) given through Paul?! Think about that very carefully, then realize that Paul’s revelations on this Rapture topic (1Cor. 15:51-53, 1Thes. 4:13-17) are from “Christ Jesus” about the “Body of Christ” (Eph. 4:12) without any context to Israel of the flesh whatsoever! Valhall and her dead church fathers are merely ‘assuming’ that Christ (Matt. 24) is talking about ‘us’ (His body church), when we are addressed ONLY by “Christ Himself” through Paul. Here is the proof:
Here is where the rubber meets the road in this debate: Valhall is not only teaching the doctrines of Jesus Christ in the flesh, but she is forcing the context of His teachings on you at the very same time. Are the members of “Christ’s body” (1Cor. 12:27) supposed to recognize Christ according to the flesh any longer? No! I understand how that sounds, but Scripture is trying to lead you into the brand “new things” far beyond the understanding of mere men. What does Paul teach about the Christ ‘we’ know now?
The “Jesus” Valhall is pointing to is walking around on the earth as the ‘incarnation’ of the GREATER “Christ Jesus” into whom He has been seated. Read these words again with me very slowly where “Christ*” AND “Christ Jesus**” appear together:
[To Be Continued]
If anyone decides to write an Opening Post or a Blog on the “Rapture,” the first order of business is to “quote” Paul writing on the Topic of the Rapture! THEN provide the ‘evidence’ to support the premise of your thesis. We must remember that Valhall is seeking to prove “The False Teaching of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture.” In order for the ‘timing’ of Paul’s “Rapture” (1Thes. 4:17) to be called ‘pre’ tribulation, then one must only prove we are ‘caught up’ BEFORE the “Great Tribulation” of Matthew 24. Therefore, since we can prove that Paul’s Rapture is connected to when the “Day of the Lord” (1Thes. 5:1+2) “COMES” (2Thes. 2:2), that places our Rapture some 1000 years before the Great Tribulation at the ‘end of the age.’ Therefore, Valhall’s Thesis for her Blog is certainly FALSE, because our Rapture takes place at the START of the 1000 years and long before any events of Christ’s Olivet Discourse even begin.
Valhall >> Irenaeus: Irenaeus Against Heresies: Book IV: The preservation of Rahab's family after the 7 trumpets a foreshadowing of the preservation of the righteous after the 7 trumpets of the tribulation. Chapter XX, verse 12: External Source: And when the entire city . . .[snip Hermas’ lingo too]
Nothing Irenaeus has to say challenges one thing Paul wrote on this “Rapture” Topic to the Corinthian church (1Cor. 15:51-53) or the Thessalonian church (1Thes. 4:13-17). We should find it amusing that she quotes Irenaeus and Hermas (Heh) rather than God speaking to us through the Apostle Paul in His Living Word. She sure runs around seeking advice from mere men with great dedication, when she should consult Scripture instead. 2Timothy 3:16+17.
Valhall speaks! >> Please note - he was not saved from facing the beast, nor was he extracted from facing the beast, but endured and boldly faced the beast through faith. He escaped from this trial by enduring to the end, not by being extracted from the threat. Just as we will be expected to endure and boldly face, through faith, the coming Great Tribulation this represents.[snip]
Heh . . . You have GOT TO BE KIDDING! The fact that you quote these people and fail to address anything written by Paul is appalling and ridiculous! Where do we find First or Second Tertullian in God’s Word, or Hermas’ Epistle to the Romans? Your half-baked theology is based upon the dead works of a bunch of dead guys, instead of upon the Living Word of God. So, I am quoting Paul in 1Thes. 4:13-17 to you and you are quoting Hermas and Tertullian back at me. Heh . . . That is the sound of our third party judges laughing in the background . . .
Valhall speaks again! >> Note that the being "caught up into the air to meet Him" is at His coming - which is at the end of the Tribulation.
No sir. This is the opinion of Valhall’s overactive imagination. Does Paul mention any “Great Tribulation” to the Corinthians or the Thessalonians? No. You are trying to plant that evidence to deceive our third party judges. She FAILS to realize that Christ’s “His Body” Church (Col. 1:24) returns with Him in glory (Col. 3:4). Christ cannot possibly be teaching anybody about the “His Body” Church gathered through this “mystery among THE GENTILES” (Col. 1:27), because He is sent to “Israel Only” (Matt. 15:24) and addressing Jews in Matthew 24; as if Paul’s “dispensation of God’s grace” (Eph. 3:2) would never even exist!
Remember always that Jesus Christ is addressing Israel ONLY (Matt. 15:24) in the Four Gospels, but Paul received the “visions and revelations of the Lord” (2Cor. 12:1) from our Lord Jesus in HEAVEN after His resurrection! Should “Christ’s body” called into existence through our gospel (2Cor. 4:3-4) given to Paul (Gal. 1:11-12) follow the marching orders given to ISRAEL, while Christ walked the earth, OR the final marching orders given as the “Lord’s Commandment” (1Cor. 14:37-38) given through Paul?! Think about that very carefully, then realize that Paul’s revelations on this Rapture topic (1Cor. 15:51-53, 1Thes. 4:13-17) are from “Christ Jesus” about the “Body of Christ” (Eph. 4:12) without any context to Israel of the flesh whatsoever! Valhall and her dead church fathers are merely ‘assuming’ that Christ (Matt. 24) is talking about ‘us’ (His body church), when we are addressed ONLY by “Christ Himself” through Paul. Here is the proof:
“Therefore from now on we recognize NO ONE according to the flesh; even though we HAVE KNOWN Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way NO LONGER. Therefore if anyone is “IN” Christ [like Terral is right this moment], he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.” 2Corinthians 5:16-17.
Here is where the rubber meets the road in this debate: Valhall is not only teaching the doctrines of Jesus Christ in the flesh, but she is forcing the context of His teachings on you at the very same time. Are the members of “Christ’s body” (1Cor. 12:27) supposed to recognize Christ according to the flesh any longer? No! I understand how that sounds, but Scripture is trying to lead you into the brand “new things” far beyond the understanding of mere men. What does Paul teach about the Christ ‘we’ know now?
“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities – all things have been created THROUGH Him and FOR Him. He is before all things, and IN Him ALL THINGS hold together.” Colossians 1;15-17.
The “Jesus” Valhall is pointing to is walking around on the earth as the ‘incarnation’ of the GREATER “Christ Jesus” into whom He has been seated. Read these words again with me very slowly where “Christ*” AND “Christ Jesus**” appear together:
“But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ* (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him*, and seated us with Him* in the heavenly places IN Christ Jesus**, so that in the ages to come He [God] might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us IN Christ Jesus**.” Ephesians 2:4-7
[To Be Continued]
“Christ Jesus” (1Tim. 2:5) is our “one Mediator” between God and men, as the Father (spirit), Son (blood) and Holy Spirit (water) in a
‘three are into the one’ (1Jn 5:8) Heavenly “Man” (1Tim. 2:5). Jesus Christ walking around on the earth is the "Son of (THAT
Heavenly) Man." Matthew 24 represents the ‘end of the age’ Prophecy of Jesus Christ the “Son of Man,” while Paul (1Cor. 15, 1Thes. 4) is
revealing ‘the mystery’ (Eph. 3:3) from “Christ Jesus” from Heaven. Paul’s very first statement from his very first letter (Romans) says,
“Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus . . .,” because he is the “chosen instrument of MINE (Christ Jesus)” in Heaven whose words
represent the “Lord’s Commandment” (1Cor. 14:37+38) to whose ear every member of “Christ’s body” should be turned.
My Bible contains no books from Marcion anywhere. Does yours? No. These men have just as much right to be wrong as Valhall, LaHaye, Darby and anyone here. The mysterious aspect of Valhall’s ‘Blog’ is she appears most reluctant to quote Scripture and particularly from Paul’s teachings on this Rapture topic. I had expected to see the Greek definition of “Harpazo” (#726 = www.blueletterbible.org... ) and verses from 1Thes. 4:13-17 at the very least. No luck thus far . . .
Please . . . Valhall saying so simply carries no weight in this debate at all. How do you suppose we “also will be revealed with Him in glory” (Col. 3:4), and gathered to Him after that revealing at that follows? Maybe you have never been exposed to the truth of Colossians 3:4? Paul never connects our ‘Rapture’ to Christ’s ‘end of the age’ Second Coming ANYWHERE. Maybe that explains why you are so reluctant to quote Paul on this Rapture Topic.
Heh . . . “destroying the God of marriage . . .”. That is funny . . . Once again she wastes valuable commentary space on trying to prove what is “NOT.” Paul never connects our Rapture (1Thes. 4:17) to anything related to the tribulation. You can just as easily say, “meet the Lord” – that’s not post-tribulation,” since Paul ‘does’ connect our Rapture to when the “Day of the Lord” (1Thes. 5:1+2) is “at hand” (2Thes. 2:2) or when that 1000 Years Period BEGINS! The 1000 Years of the Day of the Lord must pass with the restoration of ‘all things’ (Acts 3:21), before Christ can even think about returning at the ‘end of the age’ (Matt. 24:3+). The Great Tribulation is over 1000 years in the future of this planet, because the restoration of all things (Matt. 17:10-11, Acts 3:19-26, 15:16-18) has yet to even BEGIN. Please forgive the CAPS, but you guys have been inundated with disinformation on this ‘Rapture’ topic, until these methods have become necessary. Those among you with the ‘spirit of stupor’ (Rom. 11:8) might never see it, and those with the “deluding influence” (2Thes. 2:11) will certainly NEVER see it. And, if the people moving all these Rapture threads as far down the belly of BTS as possible have their way, NONE of you will ever even have the opportunity.
The remainder of this Blog is more quotes from people who have less knowledge on this topic than Valhall, or she would be quoting Scripture in the first place. These are the quotes that matter:
This Rapture event will take place to ‘start’ the 1000 Years Day of the Lord, which could happen at any moment. Those refusing to give you ‘their’ interpretations on these key Rapture verses are NOT qualified (IMHO) to be giving anyone advice on this topic. Of course, you can take brain surgery advice from the children on the playground if you like, but that is like trying to get a straight answer from Valhall on this topic quoting her church fathers over and over and over . . .
In Christ Jesus,
Terral
[The End]
Valhall >> The Five Books Against Marcion: Book III, Chapter XXV: External Source: But there is now a gate provided by Christ, which admits and conducts to glory. Of this Amos says: "He buildeth His ascensions into heaven . . .
My Bible contains no books from Marcion anywhere. Does yours? No. These men have just as much right to be wrong as Valhall, LaHaye, Darby and anyone here. The mysterious aspect of Valhall’s ‘Blog’ is she appears most reluctant to quote Scripture and particularly from Paul’s teachings on this Rapture topic. I had expected to see the Greek definition of “Harpazo” (#726 = www.blueletterbible.org... ) and verses from 1Thes. 4:13-17 at the very least. No luck thus far . . .
Valhall speaks! >> Again, we will be caught up in the clouds to meet Him...he does not come until the end of the Tribulation, therefore there is no "meeting" that can take place prior.
Please . . . Valhall saying so simply carries no weight in this debate at all. How do you suppose we “also will be revealed with Him in glory” (Col. 3:4), and gathered to Him after that revealing at that follows? Maybe you have never been exposed to the truth of Colossians 3:4? Paul never connects our ‘Rapture’ to Christ’s ‘end of the age’ Second Coming ANYWHERE. Maybe that explains why you are so reluctant to quote Paul on this Rapture Topic.
Valhall >> Book V, Chapter XV Chapter XV: External Source: For my hostility is directed against" those who are for destroying the God of marriage . . .
Valhall’s Commentary >> "meet the Lord" - that's not pretribulation
Heh . . . “destroying the God of marriage . . .”. That is funny . . . Once again she wastes valuable commentary space on trying to prove what is “NOT.” Paul never connects our Rapture (1Thes. 4:17) to anything related to the tribulation. You can just as easily say, “meet the Lord” – that’s not post-tribulation,” since Paul ‘does’ connect our Rapture to when the “Day of the Lord” (1Thes. 5:1+2) is “at hand” (2Thes. 2:2) or when that 1000 Years Period BEGINS! The 1000 Years of the Day of the Lord must pass with the restoration of ‘all things’ (Acts 3:21), before Christ can even think about returning at the ‘end of the age’ (Matt. 24:3+). The Great Tribulation is over 1000 years in the future of this planet, because the restoration of all things (Matt. 17:10-11, Acts 3:19-26, 15:16-18) has yet to even BEGIN. Please forgive the CAPS, but you guys have been inundated with disinformation on this ‘Rapture’ topic, until these methods have become necessary. Those among you with the ‘spirit of stupor’ (Rom. 11:8) might never see it, and those with the “deluding influence” (2Thes. 2:11) will certainly NEVER see it. And, if the people moving all these Rapture threads as far down the belly of BTS as possible have their way, NONE of you will ever even have the opportunity.
The remainder of this Blog is more quotes from people who have less knowledge on this topic than Valhall, or she would be quoting Scripture in the first place. These are the quotes that matter:
“Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory. "O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?" 1Corinthians 15:51-55.
“For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself WILL DESCEND FROM HEAVEN with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God [1Cor. 15:52] , and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds to MEET THE LORD in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.” 1Thessalonians 4:15-17.
This Rapture event will take place to ‘start’ the 1000 Years Day of the Lord, which could happen at any moment. Those refusing to give you ‘their’ interpretations on these key Rapture verses are NOT qualified (IMHO) to be giving anyone advice on this topic. Of course, you can take brain surgery advice from the children on the playground if you like, but that is like trying to get a straight answer from Valhall on this topic quoting her church fathers over and over and over . . .
In Christ Jesus,
Terral
[The End]
Hi Sun Matrix:
Are you blind? I said “There are NO “Rapure” (Harpazo #726) references in Matthew 24 at all!” Harpazo is used in Matthew 11:12 (“and the violent take* it by force”) and Matthew 13:19 (“the evil one comes and snatches away* what has been sown”). The next use of “Harpazo” is found in John 6:15 (“they would come and take* Him by force.”).
This is supposed to be a ‘friendly’ debate, partner. So you might want to lighten it up a bit. There are no ‘scholar’ tags by my name and none will ever be placed there. I am a Bible ‘teacher’ (Eph. 4:11) and one of the countless “tutors” (1Cor. 4:15) to those counted as wise and ‘mature’ (1Cor. 2:6) by our God. GL in the debates,
In Christ Jesus,
Terral
Terral Original >> There are NO “Rapture” (Harpazo #726) references in Matthew 24 at all! These Bible Mythologists plant the idea in your head that Christ is talking about events of 1Cor. 15 and 1Thes. 4, when that is certainly NOT the truth at all. This is the same problem I have with everyone teaching the pre, mid AND post-tribulation Rapture theories.
Sun >> Really, then what's this. Sun pastes Matt. 24:32-47[snip]. For a self proclaimed Scholar..??? You might start by figuring out the name of your God.
Are you blind? I said “There are NO “Rapure” (Harpazo #726) references in Matthew 24 at all!” Harpazo is used in Matthew 11:12 (“and the violent take* it by force”) and Matthew 13:19 (“the evil one comes and snatches away* what has been sown”). The next use of “Harpazo” is found in John 6:15 (“they would come and take* Him by force.”).
This is supposed to be a ‘friendly’ debate, partner. So you might want to lighten it up a bit. There are no ‘scholar’ tags by my name and none will ever be placed there. I am a Bible ‘teacher’ (Eph. 4:11) and one of the countless “tutors” (1Cor. 4:15) to those counted as wise and ‘mature’ (1Cor. 2:6) by our God. GL in the debates,
In Christ Jesus,
Terral
I think you're right. Thanks for saving us.
I hear there are other unsaved souls at some other boards as well.
I hear there are other unsaved souls at some other boards as well.
Originally posted by Terral
Speaker, Valhall and All:
Well, I woke up this morning expecting to see answers from SpeakerOfTruth to my two posts ( www.abovetopsecret.com... and www.abovetopsecret.com... , but those replies must still be in the works.
I
Terral,what exactly do you want me to respond to? You simply gave me your opinion on what Paul said and how it related to my theory about God's people being safe while the world around them crumbles. You obviously disagree with my interpretation and I certainly do with yours;I think it's well enough left at that. Don't you?You seem to put a whole lot of emphasis on Paul and ignore what Jesus said,but, that's okay I suppose. Your choice.
Hi Valhall, Speaker:
I was hoping either of you would simply “quote me >>” like I did you and show everyone my errors using Scripture. 2Tim. 2:15. Of course if we are in agreement, then there is nothing more to debate. : 0 )
May His Hand be upon you both,
In Christ Jesus,
Terral
Valhall >> I think you're right. Thanks for saving us. I hear there are other unsaved souls at some other boards as well.
Speaker >> Terral, what exactly do you want me to respond to?
I was hoping either of you would simply “quote me >>” like I did you and show everyone my errors using Scripture. 2Tim. 2:15. Of course if we are in agreement, then there is nothing more to debate. : 0 )
May His Hand be upon you both,
In Christ Jesus,
Terral
Originally posted by Terral
In order for the ‘timing’ of Paul’s “Rapture” (1Thes. 4:17) to be called ‘pre’ tribulation, then one must only prove we are ‘caught up’ BEFORE the “Great Tribulation” of Matthew 24.
No problem here except I'm not quite sure why you are calling it Pauls rapture.
Does Peter have one? Does Mark? Why are you saying Pauls rapture? You may have expained it somewhere but I'm not going to read your life story to find out.
Therefore, since we can prove that Paul’s Rapture is connected to when the “Day of the Lord” (1Thes. 5:1+2) “COMES” (2Thes. 2:2), that places our Rapture some 1000 years before the Great Tribulation at the ‘end of the age.’
2 Thessalonians 1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth 5 that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth 5 that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
You seem awfully confused about all this. Paul is talking to the Gentiles and telling them don't be shaken that you have missed coming of Christ and the gathering together unto him (The Rapture)
The Gentiles were worried that they had missed the rapture and that the Day of Christ was at hand. Paul assures them that before that day happens the Antichrist will be revealed. Then further assures them that the Antichrist will not be revealed until the believers are taken in the rapture. So Paul is saying that the day of Christ is not at hand.
How you come up with 1000 years between the rapture and the tribulation seems a pipe dream to me.
I imagine you are getting the 1000 year day of the Lord from 2 Peter 2:8
2 peter 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
I haven't read all your stuff so..............anyway.........I think you are saying that the rapture happens and then there is a thousand year day of the Lord and then the tribulation.
Pin that down for me clearly if you can.
I believe the rapture happens which starts the tribulation. Order comes out of chaos and the Antichrist comes to power with the white horse of Revelation 6. The antichrist brings peace to the earth and after 3 and 1/2 years the Day of the Lord begins with the Red horse of the Revelation 6 being released. This starts the 3 and 1/2 years of great tribulation.
What am I missing?
[edit on 21-10-2006 by Sun Matrix]
Went off the deep end last night reading 1 Thessalonians 5
When they say peace and safety then sudden destruction cometh.
The day of the Lord begins at the sixth seal.
This occurs after the great tribulation
The Great Tribulation begins with the release of the Red horse in Rev. 6
[edit on 21-10-2006 by Sun Matrix]
When they say peace and safety then sudden destruction cometh.
The day of the Lord begins at the sixth seal.
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, 6 when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
This occurs after the great tribulation
The Great Tribulation begins with the release of the Red horse in Rev. 6
[edit on 21-10-2006 by Sun Matrix]
Hi Sun Matrix:
God gave every component of “the mystery” (Eph. 3:3, Col. 1:26) to Paul through a ‘revelation of Jesus Christ’ (Gal. 1:11+12) in the same way He speaks through John and through Christ in Revelation (Rev. 1:1).
There is no such thing as Peter’s word or John’s word or Paul’s word, because everything in Scripture is “God’s Word” given through His Only Begotten Son (the Logos). What does Scripture say?
My Rapture Thesis ( www.belowtopsecret.com... ), deemed unfit for this ATS Board, includes this in the opening statement:
The Apostle Paul is the only Bible writer to place our ‘mystery’ (1Cor. 15:51) Rapture (1Thes. 4:17) to when the “Day of the Lord” (1Thes. 5:1+2) is “at hand.” 2Thessalonians 2:2. My best guess is this statement flies over the top of most everyone’s head and they have no idea as to what this means. Jesus Christ can give you infinite details on how the 1000 Years (2Peter 3:8) “Day of the Lord” (2Peter 3:10) ENDS, which includes all the prophetic events of His Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24. However, He hasn’t the slightest clue when that 1000 years ‘times and epochs’ (Acts 1:6+7, 1Thes. 5:1+2) Period will BEGIN! That knowledge is known to the ‘Father Alone.’ Matthew 24:36.
The events Paul describes in 1Corinthians 15:51-55 AND 1Thessalonians 4:13-17 take place when that upcoming 1000 Years “Day of the Lord” BEGINS. The reason I call this event “Paul’s Rapture,” is because he is the only Bible writer to present ‘these things’ (2Peter 3:14-16) to anyone in his Thirteen Epistles to the Gentiles. “The Mystery” (Eph. 3:3, etc.) includes our Gospel (Romans 16:25) our mystery church (Eph. 5:32 = His body church = Col. 1:24) and how this “called out assembly” will be gathered in our ‘mystery’ (1Cor. 15:51) Rapture (1Thes. 4:17). Christ (Matt. 24) is telling Peter and Twelve about events related to “Your Coming” and the “End of the Age” (Matt. 24:3+), which has nothing whatsoever to do with events taking place some 1000 years EARLIER (1Thes. 4:17). There are two veils present in your Bible just like the Tabernacle of Moses and the Temple:
The 39 books of the OT represent "Prophecy Unclothed" standing in the Holy Of Holies of Scripture with the blood and water witnesses enfolded “IN” them. This is the same type as “The Logos” being the Father (spirit), Son (blood) and Holy Spirit (water) in the beginning with God (John 1:2). We see the same typology revealed in Adam (Gen. 2:7) with Eve (water) and her seed (blood) “IN” him as the original “son of God” (Luke 3:38). The Lord God (Christ) then took Eve and Seed from Adam’s side to reveal the three witnesses as ‘three are into the one’ (1John 5:8). The 13 Epistles of the Apostle Paul represent the ‘blood’ (1John 5:6) witness of Christ’s Heavenly Ministry, while the 13 Kingdom Epistles depict the ‘water’ (1John 5:6) witness and Christ’s Earthly Ministry. The Kingdom books are broken into two parts, because the Kingdom ‘Bride’ (John 3:29) is being gathered in ‘early and late rains’ (James 5:7) fashion; with Peter’s early rains bride being ‘cut off’ (Revelation 20:4) to be raised with us (body of Christ) at the ‘First Resurrection.’ Only then can Elijah come to restore all things (Matt. 17:10-11, Acts 3:19-26), when our Rapture occurs and this world heads into the 1000 Years (Rev. 20:5) “Lord’s Day” (Rev. 1:10 = Day of the Lord).
“Cutting Straight” (2Tim. 2:15) the word of truth is accurately placing these “Two Veils” in the proper places within God’s Living Word, which makes Scripture become “Living AND Active” (Heb. 4:12). My Bible has three parts with a spirit (OT), body (Kingdom NT) and soul (Paul’s Epistles), while most everyone here has a Bible that is DEAD having only two parts of OT and NT. The common error of most everyone is they blend the blood and water (1John 5:6) witnesses of the NT together to create a body of man-made dogma that God sent to NOBODY. Paul’s teachings on our Rapture fall between the two veils (1Cor. 15, 1Thes. 4), but Christ’s ‘end of the age’ prophecies are in the “Kingdom Epistles” written to the Kingdom ‘bride.’ Acts is the transitional “First Veil” that shields the water witnesses from seeing into the Holy Place (Paul’s Epistles) of Scripture.
In the end (1Cor. 15:27+28) everyone from the OT saints AND the NT bride will be summed up “IN” Christ Jesus (Eph. 1:9+10) where we have been since believing Paul’s “word of the cross” (1Cor. 1:18) gospel message. The difference is they are coming by WORKS (James 2:20-24). You guys quoting “Christ” (Matt. 24) about our mystery (1Cor. 15:51) Rapture (1Thes. 4:17) are wrongly dividing the word of truth! It is one thing to accuse someone of doing so, and quite another to use diagrams and explain exactly why! All I am trying to do is help others to see what God showed me through His Word many decades ago, so you can also begin ‘rightly dividing’ the word of truth.
[Continued]
Terral Original >> In order for the ‘timing’ of Paul’s “Rapture” (1Thes. 4:17) to be called ‘pre’ tribulation, then one must only prove we are ‘caught up’ BEFORE the “Great Tribulation” of Matthew 24.
Sun Matrix >> No problem here except I'm not quite sure why you are calling it Paul’s rapture.
God gave every component of “the mystery” (Eph. 3:3, Col. 1:26) to Paul through a ‘revelation of Jesus Christ’ (Gal. 1:11+12) in the same way He speaks through John and through Christ in Revelation (Rev. 1:1).
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John . . .”. Revelation 1:1.
There is no such thing as Peter’s word or John’s word or Paul’s word, because everything in Scripture is “God’s Word” given through His Only Begotten Son (the Logos). What does Scripture say?
“If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the LORD’S COMMANDMENT. But if anyone [ and that includes you ] does not recognize this, he is not recognized.” 1Corinthians 14:37-38.
My Rapture Thesis ( www.belowtopsecret.com... ), deemed unfit for this ATS Board, includes this in the opening statement:
Another invention of the Denominations is represented by the pre, mid and post-tribulation Rapture interpretations by modern day theologians. The Rapture of our mystery church (Ephesians 5:32) is prophesied by the Apostle Paul and ‘only’ by him in his thirteen Epistles to Gentiles. The common error of Bible Commentators today is they mix the events of ‘our’ mystery Rapture with Christ’s “Olivet Discourse” detailing things taking place at the ‘end of the age’ (Matthew 24:3+).
The Apostle Paul is the only Bible writer to place our ‘mystery’ (1Cor. 15:51) Rapture (1Thes. 4:17) to when the “Day of the Lord” (1Thes. 5:1+2) is “at hand.” 2Thessalonians 2:2. My best guess is this statement flies over the top of most everyone’s head and they have no idea as to what this means. Jesus Christ can give you infinite details on how the 1000 Years (2Peter 3:8) “Day of the Lord” (2Peter 3:10) ENDS, which includes all the prophetic events of His Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24. However, He hasn’t the slightest clue when that 1000 years ‘times and epochs’ (Acts 1:6+7, 1Thes. 5:1+2) Period will BEGIN! That knowledge is known to the ‘Father Alone.’ Matthew 24:36.
The events Paul describes in 1Corinthians 15:51-55 AND 1Thessalonians 4:13-17 take place when that upcoming 1000 Years “Day of the Lord” BEGINS. The reason I call this event “Paul’s Rapture,” is because he is the only Bible writer to present ‘these things’ (2Peter 3:14-16) to anyone in his Thirteen Epistles to the Gentiles. “The Mystery” (Eph. 3:3, etc.) includes our Gospel (Romans 16:25) our mystery church (Eph. 5:32 = His body church = Col. 1:24) and how this “called out assembly” will be gathered in our ‘mystery’ (1Cor. 15:51) Rapture (1Thes. 4:17). Christ (Matt. 24) is telling Peter and Twelve about events related to “Your Coming” and the “End of the Age” (Matt. 24:3+), which has nothing whatsoever to do with events taking place some 1000 years EARLIER (1Thes. 4:17). There are two veils present in your Bible just like the Tabernacle of Moses and the Temple:
The 39 books of the OT represent "Prophecy Unclothed" standing in the Holy Of Holies of Scripture with the blood and water witnesses enfolded “IN” them. This is the same type as “The Logos” being the Father (spirit), Son (blood) and Holy Spirit (water) in the beginning with God (John 1:2). We see the same typology revealed in Adam (Gen. 2:7) with Eve (water) and her seed (blood) “IN” him as the original “son of God” (Luke 3:38). The Lord God (Christ) then took Eve and Seed from Adam’s side to reveal the three witnesses as ‘three are into the one’ (1John 5:8). The 13 Epistles of the Apostle Paul represent the ‘blood’ (1John 5:6) witness of Christ’s Heavenly Ministry, while the 13 Kingdom Epistles depict the ‘water’ (1John 5:6) witness and Christ’s Earthly Ministry. The Kingdom books are broken into two parts, because the Kingdom ‘Bride’ (John 3:29) is being gathered in ‘early and late rains’ (James 5:7) fashion; with Peter’s early rains bride being ‘cut off’ (Revelation 20:4) to be raised with us (body of Christ) at the ‘First Resurrection.’ Only then can Elijah come to restore all things (Matt. 17:10-11, Acts 3:19-26), when our Rapture occurs and this world heads into the 1000 Years (Rev. 20:5) “Lord’s Day” (Rev. 1:10 = Day of the Lord).
“Cutting Straight” (2Tim. 2:15) the word of truth is accurately placing these “Two Veils” in the proper places within God’s Living Word, which makes Scripture become “Living AND Active” (Heb. 4:12). My Bible has three parts with a spirit (OT), body (Kingdom NT) and soul (Paul’s Epistles), while most everyone here has a Bible that is DEAD having only two parts of OT and NT. The common error of most everyone is they blend the blood and water (1John 5:6) witnesses of the NT together to create a body of man-made dogma that God sent to NOBODY. Paul’s teachings on our Rapture fall between the two veils (1Cor. 15, 1Thes. 4), but Christ’s ‘end of the age’ prophecies are in the “Kingdom Epistles” written to the Kingdom ‘bride.’ Acts is the transitional “First Veil” that shields the water witnesses from seeing into the Holy Place (Paul’s Epistles) of Scripture.
In the end (1Cor. 15:27+28) everyone from the OT saints AND the NT bride will be summed up “IN” Christ Jesus (Eph. 1:9+10) where we have been since believing Paul’s “word of the cross” (1Cor. 1:18) gospel message. The difference is they are coming by WORKS (James 2:20-24). You guys quoting “Christ” (Matt. 24) about our mystery (1Cor. 15:51) Rapture (1Thes. 4:17) are wrongly dividing the word of truth! It is one thing to accuse someone of doing so, and quite another to use diagrams and explain exactly why! All I am trying to do is help others to see what God showed me through His Word many decades ago, so you can also begin ‘rightly dividing’ the word of truth.
[Continued]
Hi Matrix:
Heh . . . No. Peter has no Rapture, because every member of the Kingdom ‘bride’ (John 3:29) must ‘endure to the end’ (Matt. 24:13) of his natural life through natural causes or martyrdom. Note Christ’s words to them carefully:
Many confuse “The Elect” with the late rains kingdom ‘bride,’ but that is an inaccurate interpretation. Remember the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ goes into the whole world (Matt. 24:14), BEFORE the antichrist even enters the Holy Place (Matt. 24:15). The Great Tribulation begins AFTER that event and the late rains kingdom bride is martyred, because they refuse the mark (Rev. 13:16+17) and refuse to worship the beast “to be killed” (Rev.13:15). How many from the kingdom ‘bride’ does that leave on the earth following the Great Tribulation? ZERO. We see that evidence in Revelation 7:
These members of the ‘late rains’ kingdom ‘bride’ joined Peter and the Twelve on the ‘sea of glass’ (Rev. 4:6, 15:2) “before the throne,” while you and I are already “IN” the Lamb from the very beginning (Rev. 1:10-19) as the members of His brand new “body of Christ” (Eph. 4:12). We were Raptured (1Thes. 4:17) to START the “Lord’s day” (Rev. 1:10) with the trumpet heard ‘behind’ John in Revelation 1:10 (1Cor. 15:52, 1Thes. 4:16). Paul had no reason to write the Thessalonians about these “times and epochs” (1Thes. 5:1+2) events of the “Day of the Lord” itself, because he knew they would see them from “IN” the Lamb of Revelation. “The Elect” (Matt. 24:31) are obedient to the “eternal gospel” (Rev. 14:6) to become the citizens of the Kingdom of Heaven itself. Those obedient to Paul’s Gospel are “IN” the Lamb, while those obeying the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ (early bride = Matt. 4:23, etc. + late bride = Matt. 24:14) serve ‘before’ God’s throne as the “kingdom of priests” (Exodus 19:6, Rev. 1:6, 5:10 = 1Peter 2:9 = royal priesthood). Everyone from the kingdom of heaven MUST become part of the kingdom ‘bride’ and serve as a priest before God’s throne, before they can even think about joining us ‘IN’ the Lamb. Remember that our mystery church judges the world (men from visible realm) and the angels (hosts from invisible realms), so they too can join us “IN” Christ Jesus.
Quote half the Bible next time. Holy . . . I have no clue about what you are referring to, because you quoted far too much Text. The first two verses say:
Paul just connected the events of 1Thes. 4:17 (our Rapture) to when the Day of the Lord (“Day of Christ” here) COMES. That is the ‘start’ of the 1000 Years “Day of the Lord” and NOT the END taking place 1000 Years later.
NO! This is the common mistake! Scripture says:
Paul is setting the stage in order to introduce these Thessalonians to the “mystery of iniquity” (2Thes. 2:7) by first demonstrating the ‘end of the age’ equivalent that ‘does’ take place “IN HIS TIME.” The ‘restrainer’ aspect is the Spirit of Prophecy incorporated within the “Day of the Lord” prophecies themselves. Christ said the “gospel of the kingdom” must go to the whole world first (Matt. 24:14), before the antichrist can even appear. The first part of the prophecy ‘restrains’ the second part from even beginning. Joel’s prophecy (Joel 2:28-32) restated in Acts 2:17-21 by Peter is given in two parts. The first part includes “My Spirit” being poured out on “All mankind,” which is done through the laying of hands (Acts 8:17, 19:6) for the ‘gospel of the kingdom.’ Only then can the ‘restrainer’ release the “wonders in the sky” and “on the earth below, blood, and fire” (Acts 2:19 = Matt. 24:29).
[Continued]
[edit on 21-10-2006 by Terral]
Sun Matrix >> Does Peter have one? Does Mark? Why are you saying Pauls rapture? You may have expained it somewhere but I'm not going to read your life story to find out.
Heh . . . No. Peter has no Rapture, because every member of the Kingdom ‘bride’ (John 3:29) must ‘endure to the end’ (Matt. 24:13) of his natural life through natural causes or martyrdom. Note Christ’s words to them carefully:
"Then they WILL DELIVER you to tribulation, and WILL KILL YOU, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.” Matthew 24:9.
"For then there will be a Great Tribulation, such as has NOT occurred since the beginning of the world until now, NOR EVER WILL. Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of The Elect those days will be cut short.” Matthew 24:21-22
Many confuse “The Elect” with the late rains kingdom ‘bride,’ but that is an inaccurate interpretation. Remember the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ goes into the whole world (Matt. 24:14), BEFORE the antichrist even enters the Holy Place (Matt. 24:15). The Great Tribulation begins AFTER that event and the late rains kingdom bride is martyred, because they refuse the mark (Rev. 13:16+17) and refuse to worship the beast “to be killed” (Rev.13:15). How many from the kingdom ‘bride’ does that leave on the earth following the Great Tribulation? ZERO. We see that evidence in Revelation 7:
“Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?" I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the GREAT TRIBULATION, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them.” Revelation 7:13-15.
These members of the ‘late rains’ kingdom ‘bride’ joined Peter and the Twelve on the ‘sea of glass’ (Rev. 4:6, 15:2) “before the throne,” while you and I are already “IN” the Lamb from the very beginning (Rev. 1:10-19) as the members of His brand new “body of Christ” (Eph. 4:12). We were Raptured (1Thes. 4:17) to START the “Lord’s day” (Rev. 1:10) with the trumpet heard ‘behind’ John in Revelation 1:10 (1Cor. 15:52, 1Thes. 4:16). Paul had no reason to write the Thessalonians about these “times and epochs” (1Thes. 5:1+2) events of the “Day of the Lord” itself, because he knew they would see them from “IN” the Lamb of Revelation. “The Elect” (Matt. 24:31) are obedient to the “eternal gospel” (Rev. 14:6) to become the citizens of the Kingdom of Heaven itself. Those obedient to Paul’s Gospel are “IN” the Lamb, while those obeying the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ (early bride = Matt. 4:23, etc. + late bride = Matt. 24:14) serve ‘before’ God’s throne as the “kingdom of priests” (Exodus 19:6, Rev. 1:6, 5:10 = 1Peter 2:9 = royal priesthood). Everyone from the kingdom of heaven MUST become part of the kingdom ‘bride’ and serve as a priest before God’s throne, before they can even think about joining us ‘IN’ the Lamb. Remember that our mystery church judges the world (men from visible realm) and the angels (hosts from invisible realms), so they too can join us “IN” Christ Jesus.
Terral Original >> Therefore, since we can prove that Paul’s Rapture is connected to when the “Day of the Lord” (1Thes. 5:1+2) “COMES” (2Thes. 2:2), that places our Rapture some 1000 years before the Great Tribulation at the ‘end of the age.’
Sun Matrix Quotes >> 2Thes. 2:1-8: You seem awfully confused about all this. Paul is talking to the Gentiles and telling them don't be shaken that you have missed coming of Christ and the gathering together unto him (The Rapture)
Quote half the Bible next time. Holy . . . I have no clue about what you are referring to, because you quoted far too much Text. The first two verses say:
“Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him [1Thes. 4:17], that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the Day of the Lord HAS COME.” 2Thessalonians 2:1-2.
Paul just connected the events of 1Thes. 4:17 (our Rapture) to when the Day of the Lord (“Day of Christ” here) COMES. That is the ‘start’ of the 1000 Years “Day of the Lord” and NOT the END taking place 1000 Years later.
Sun >> The Gentiles were worried that they had missed the rapture and that the Day of Christ was at hand. Paul assures them that before that day happens the Antichrist will be revealed.
NO! This is the common mistake! Scripture says:
“Let no one in any way deceive you, for unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? And you know what restrains him now, so that IN HIS TIME he will be revealed.” 2Thes. 2:3-6.
Paul is setting the stage in order to introduce these Thessalonians to the “mystery of iniquity” (2Thes. 2:7) by first demonstrating the ‘end of the age’ equivalent that ‘does’ take place “IN HIS TIME.” The ‘restrainer’ aspect is the Spirit of Prophecy incorporated within the “Day of the Lord” prophecies themselves. Christ said the “gospel of the kingdom” must go to the whole world first (Matt. 24:14), before the antichrist can even appear. The first part of the prophecy ‘restrains’ the second part from even beginning. Joel’s prophecy (Joel 2:28-32) restated in Acts 2:17-21 by Peter is given in two parts. The first part includes “My Spirit” being poured out on “All mankind,” which is done through the laying of hands (Acts 8:17, 19:6) for the ‘gospel of the kingdom.’ Only then can the ‘restrainer’ release the “wonders in the sky” and “on the earth below, blood, and fire” (Acts 2:19 = Matt. 24:29).
[Continued]
[edit on 21-10-2006 by Terral]
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