LaHaye's "Rapture" Ideology Was Not Even Considered Until 1830

If anyone teaches differently and does not agree to the sound words, those of our Master יהושע Messiah, and to the teaching which is according to reverence, he is puffed up, understanding none at all, but is sick about questionings and verbal battles from which come envy, strife, slander, wicked suspicions, worthless disputes of men of corrupt minds and deprived of the truth, who think that reverence is a means of gain – withdraw from such.

But reverence with contentment is great gain.

~1 Timothy 6:3-6

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth

Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

That is rather simple,Sun Matrix. It means to pray that you have passed away before the "end times".

Yeah, I just can't see where he's getting it. Oh well - or as they say in the Vulgate - oh-lus-wellius.

Originally posted by queenannie38
If anyone teaches differently and does not agree to the sound words, those of our Master יהושע Messiah, and to the teaching which is according to reverence, he is puffed up, understanding none at all, but is sick about questionings and verbal battles from which come envy, strife, slander, wicked suspicions, worthless disputes of men of corrupt minds and deprived of the truth, who think that reverence is a means of gain – withdraw from such.

But reverence with contentment is great gain.

~1 Timothy 6:3-6

It's very true,annie. Like the old saying goes, "Pride cometh before a fall." I have read most of Terral's posts, some, to be honest I skip because I get tired of reading the same words repeatedly, but it seems to me that he thinks he has some "divine" insight on the will of God.

The bible warns against false "teachers. Once again from the mouth of Christ to your ear,Terral:

Matthew 16:6: “Then Jesus said to them, ‘Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees.’”

The Pharisees and Sadducees were the "priests and clerics" of ancient time. They follwed the "word as it is written," much the way you claim to,Terral. Guess what. They were wrong!!

Acts 20:29-31

20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

20:31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

I suggest,Terral, that you consider what you are implying and revert to Act 20:29-31. It is a pretty good depiction of the way that you are presenting yourself.

SERIOUSLY folks ... the Rapture myth means NOTHING in regards to salvation. Nothing. If you believe or don't believe in a rapture, it doesn't change your being (or not being) saved.

For alleged christians to spout that those who don't believe in a rapture are somehow not right with God .. that's plain wrong (on MANY levels!!)

The big thing about the rapture myth that is a problem is this .... If people are counting on a magical carpet ride outta' here before all heck breaks loose, then they won't be prepared for tribulations when they come and they could easily loose their faith.

It's just that simple.

The fact is that everyone will have their own personal 'end of the world' and for most of us that ending will include tribulations and difficulties. We need to be prepared to accept God's Holy Will in suffering and in difficult times as well as good, otherwise we will loose our faith.

The danger of the rapture myth isn't just that it's unscriptural; the danger is that people will count on it and think that they will somehow be spared difficulties. When the inevitable difficulties and tribulations hit us all ... those that thought they were getting an 'easy out' will find that their souls are not prepared to accept God's Will.

Rapture myth is a dangerous false doctrine that robs people of their faith and tears Christians apart from each other - making the Devil very happy I'm sure. Time is MUCH better spent on discussing salvation and how to help ourselves and others to live life the way God wants us to .. in faith and in love.

Very well stated,Flyer. I certainly would like to think that Terral's intentions are good, but some of his responses, and the lack thereof in some cases, seems to suggest otherwise.

My understanding of it (and subsequent denouncement of it as 'fact') is pretty simple:

those that are worried about getting out of here before it hurts (with nary a look behind them at those not so 'lucky') are missing the whole point of just one little teaching....

but it is actually THE BIGGIE....

Love your neighbor as yourself.

If you want to escape and plan to leave your handy annotated bible for the sake of your neighbor's salvation (in your absence) then I'd say that your neighbor might as well be chattel - you'd sell out for the going rate of a slave just to get out of some troubling times.

BUT those times of trouble are the opportunity to earn your crown, my brothers! Do you want a crown or your hide? Your hide will rot but your crown will never tarnish.

You make the call.

Originally posted by marg6043
Matt16:28 “There are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his Kingdom”

Well unless is some immortals walking among us in secret the generations when this was spoken are not where to be found. But we all know that this was spoken to the disciples.

Yes it was spoken to the apostles, and they saw the kingdom.

The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Matt24:1-51 The prophecy that has been know in Fundamentalists circles to be of the “last days”, But is also been refuted by scholars that claims that this chapter records events that were already taken place because Matthew was written during 80-90 AD.

That would certainly be a cute trick. Matthew 24 has not happened yet.

Originally posted by marg6043
Should I believe what fundamentalist tell me?

Or should we denied that Jesus spoke in private to his disciples and his disciples alone.

Matt 24:3 “And they came unto him privately, saying, tell us, when shall these things be? And what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?”

Jesus after giving a list of happenings, adding to it, ”Then shall they deliver y9u up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and you shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake” (verse 9) .

That sounds to me like the disciples were to be very well alive for the end of times. Right?

”And then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory”

Verse 33 “So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors”

Verse 34 “Veryly I say unto you, This generation should no pass, till all these things be fulfilled”

Humm . . .Well the generation did pass away and The Son of man has not returned, so where in any of those quotes said that we most wait two thousand years?

The only things that happen during the disciples lives was the temple destroyed, false Christs as mentioned by Paul, and some of the disciples persecuted by Romans.

Perhaps the last to die was John and his death marked the end of the generations of the time of Jesus teachings.

But occurs we got the experts that will tell us that the meaning of generations is to be the generations of that will be living in the during the end of time.

But guess what I will stick with the bible itself and what it say anything else including the Revelations book is not something I trust or believe to be part of the bible at all.

Mark14:62 “Ye shall see the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of power and coming in the clouds of heaven”

That seems to be a false prophecy because the chiefs priest never lived to see that coming.

See I can go on and on and do like Mr. Terral and still nobody here will be able to agree with each other interpretations.

That is my whole point.

I'll keep it simple..................Matthew 24 has not happened yet.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth

Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

That is rather simple,Sun Matrix. It means to pray that you have passed away before the "end times".

Let's try to keep things in context. I see no mention of praying for death in the preceeding verses. I do see that we should pray that the cares of this LIFE should not leave us unaware.

Jesus says WATCH YE THEREFORE...............what are we watching for? We are watching for his coming. Look up your redemption draws nigh. The bridegroom cometh.

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
[
Jesus says WATCH YE THEREFORE...............what are we watching for? We are watching for his coming.

Still,his coming does not imply the "wisping away" of anyone. His coming implies a change of guard. A change of system, but not the "wisping away" of "the elect."



[edit on 12-10-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]

[edit on 12-10-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
[
Jesus says WATCH YE THEREFORE...............what are we watching for? We are watching for his coming.

Still,his coming does not imply the "wisping away" of anyone. His coming implies a change of guard. A change of system, but not the "wisping away" of "the elect."

How about here?

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

One more time I'm going to ask. Show me where it says the rapture will take place prior to the tribulation. Bein's Christ isn't going to return until after the tribulation.

I don't see it.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth

Still,his coming does not imply the "wisping away" of anyone. His coming implies a change of guard. A change of system, but not the "wisping away" of "the elect."

And how about here. And again we are told to WATCH for his coming.

Matthew 24:40-42 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix

How about here?

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

It's important to remember that the resurrection occurs after the tribulation, not prior.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix

How about here?

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

It's important to remember that the resurrection occurs after the tribulation, not prior.

SUN MATRIX -

It was a custom in those days for the people of a village to go out to greet a hero or a royal person. They would leave their town and go out and escort that person into as a sign of respect. In the case of Jesus, when he returns the people were saying that they would go greet him and 'escort' him into town as a sign of respect and to acknowledge that He was their king.

He left going up into the clouds, and so He's return coming back down from the clouds. They couldn't say they'd go out and greet him on the street ... since he ws coming down from the clouds. Therefore, as he came down for his second coming they said they'd greet him 'up there' and escort him in.

Honestly, I think that there is just 'custom of the time' in that phrase. That's it.

Those who ‘suffer with Him (for His sake) through the terrors of the last days will at that time ‘also be glorified with Him’ (Romans 8:17)

‘The souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the
witness they had borne … each given a white robe and told to rest a little
longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should
be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been (Rev 6:9-
11) … ‘Whence have they come? The elder declared ‘These are they who
have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and
made them white in the blood of the lamb” Rev 7:13-14 God didn’t rescue
faithful from the horrors of persecution in the end times.

Jesus Prayed – ‘I do not ask that you take them out of the world but that
you keep them from the evil one’ – John 17:15

Originally posted by Valhall

Originally posted by Sun Matrix

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

One more time I'm going to ask. Show me where it says the rapture will take place prior to the tribulation. Bein's Christ isn't going to return until after the tribulation.

I don't see it.

One more time I will answer.

Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken

When you see these things begin to come to pass...............before the tribulation.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix

Originally posted by Valhall

Originally posted by Sun Matrix

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

One more time I'm going to ask. Show me where it says the rapture will take place prior to the tribulation. Bein's Christ isn't going to return until after the tribulation.

I don't see it.

One more time I will answer.

Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken

When you see these things begin to come to pass...............before the tribulation.

It says nothing about the resurrection occuring during this time. It just states that when you see these things you should begin to prepare for his return. This "wisping away" you and Terral keep referring to does not take place until the resurrection. The resurrection only occurs after the last bomb is dropped,after the tribulation.

[edit on 12-10-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]

The clouds also, are the shekinah - the LORD's cloud of glory which filled Solomon's temple so full that the priests could not enter.

Look up the Hebrew word for 'cloud.'

The apostle Paul, in his first letter to the Corinthians, chapter fifteen, and verses fifty-one to fifty-two, says, ”Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all die, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkle of an eye, at the last trumpet: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed” (cf I Thess. 4:14-18). This describes the rapture of those who are in Christ. Paul clearly indicates that this rapture will occur at the last trumpet. (I will now utilize Revelation solely because it serves an immediate purpose of indication in order to refute the Evangelical position.) Where is the last trumpet? - Inside the seventh seal of the book of Revelation. In Revelation preceding this last trumpet are seven seal judgements and six trumpet judgements. According to this book it sure appears to me that it is well within the tribulation period. This would place the rapture at Revelation chapter 11 verse 18, if not in chapter seven - and not at the place where John is told to "Come up hither" (Rev. 4:1) as the Evangelicals would have you to believe as they subjectively spiritualize when they should be literal. They always tell us to interpret the scripture literally, but here they like to spiritualize their interpretation in order to make it fit their pre-conceived idea of an inadequately "substantiated" pre-trib position imposed upon scripture. There are also those who say that there are two classes of trumpets and that these are not for the saints, but for judgements against the lost. I believe the seals, and trumpets are to at least be understood as wake-up calls upon humanity. It appears to me the rapture occurs in Chapter 7 verse 9 (and14), and in other places where indicated - not at “come up hither.” The multiplicity is probably due to the Bible phenomenon known as recapitulation.

Last Trumpet

Notice

Paul clearly indicates that this rapture will occur at the last trumpet.

The answer to your question,Terral, about Paul's verse is right there.