LaHaye's "Rapture" Ideology Was Not Even Considered Until 1830

The antichrist’s “time” is NOT in our mystery time of today, as there is not even a Temple in Jerusalem for him to make desolate! Elijah must return first and restore all things, which includes the tabernacle of David (Acts 15:16-18), before the antichrist can even think about coming; and THEN only after the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ goes to the whole world (Matt .24:14). Paul then continues with his teaching on what DOES take place in our ‘mystery’ time of today:

“For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.” 2Thessalonians 2:7.

Right here represents the ‘hump’ that many Christians struggle to climb over to find ‘the truth’ on the other side. Christ is coming ‘PHYSICALLY’ at the ‘end of the age’ (Matt. 24:30-31), but the ‘body of Christ’ (Eph. 4:12 = that’s us) is being gathered today during this ‘mystery’ time through what Paul teaches as the “mystery of Christ” (Eph. 3:4, Col. 4:3). The ‘mystery of Iniquity’ (lawlessness) is the antithesis doctrine that places all those rejecting our gospel (2Thes. 2:10-12) into the directly opposing “body of sin” or the spiritual ‘body of the antichrist.’

Denominationalism is building a gigantic ‘body of sin,’ while the mystery of Christ is building a much smaller ‘remnant’ “body of Christ” right along side the evil twin. This is like big hairy Esau and little petite Jacob all over again with the world being the womb of their mother. Paul is NOT teaching that the antichrist is coming ‘physically’ in our day, but he is using that ‘end of the age’ scenario (AC and Christ coming physically) to teach them about the ‘spiritual’ lesson on the ‘mystery of iniquity.’ If you will go back and read the passage again with emphasis on “IN HIS TIME” (2Thes. 2:6), the entire ‘spiritual’ lesson will be understood in a clear Light. Common sense should tell you that no Temple exists in Jerusalem AND we do not even preach the “gospel of the kingdom” today.

Sun >> Then further assures them that the Antichrist will not be revealed until the believers are taken in the rapture. So Paul is saying that the day of Christ is not at hand.

We agree. Paul is reassuring these Thessalonians that the “Day of the Lord” (1Thes. 5:1+2) with those ‘times and epochs’ events has not even STARTED without them. However, Christ describes the antichrist coming to stand in the Holy Place (Matt. 24:15) in His “end of the age” accounts that ‘do’ take place “IN HIS TIME.” 2Thes. 2:6.

Sun >> How you come up with 1000 years between the rapture and the tribulation seems a pipe dream to me.

Are you allowing ‘1000 years’ for one day to the Lord (2Pet. 3:8), which means a 1000 Year ‘duration’ for the “Day of the Lord?” Yes? If so, then Paul’s Rapture (1Thes. 4:17) STARTS the 1000 Years and the Great Tribulation (Matt. 24:21) ENDS the same 1000 Year Period. Draw yourself out a timeline and place our Rapture at the ‘start’ and Christ’s ‘end of the age’ events 1000 years ‘later.’ I come up with 1000 years every time. : 0 )

Sun >> I haven't read all your stuff so..............anyway.........I think you are saying that the rapture happens and then there is a thousand year day of the Lord and then the tribulation. Pin that down for me clearly if you can.

Bravo! We are living through the 2000 Years mystery time that none of the OT Prophets were given to see. Elijah is returning to restore all things, which will fulfill the prophecies of Malachi 4:5+6 AND Matthew 17:10-11 to ‘start’ the 1000 Years Day of the Lord.

Sun >> I believe the rapture happens which starts the tribulation.

You and I disagree by 1000 Years contained by the “Day of the Lord” itself.

Sun >> Order comes out of chaos and the Antichrist comes to power with the white horse of Revelation 6. The antichrist brings peace to the earth and after 3 and 1/2 years the Day of the Lord begins with the Red horse of the Revelation 6 being released. This starts the 3 and 1/2 years of great tribulation. What am I missing?

Heh . . . Yes. You are following the common interpretation that creates a myriad of contradictions in God’s Word. How is your Temple going to be rebuilt, so the antichrist can come and stand in the Holy Place (Matt. 24:15), BEFORE Christ returns 3.5 years later (Matt. 24:30+31)? Are you just going to rebuild the Temple? What will keep Esau from tearing it down in a single day, unless you restore the Kingdom to Israel around that Temple? Your eschatology does not include Elijah coming “first” to restore anything. Heaven must hold Christ by the hand, “until the times (plural) of restoration of ALL THINGS about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.” Acts 3:21. Christ cannot return, until everything is restored AND that kingdom is made desolate by the antichrist in Matthew 24:15. Do you see Christ coming earlier to restore anything? No! That chore and responsibility is laid on the shoulders of Elijah (Matt. 17:10-11, etc.). GL seeing it.

In Christ Jesus,

Terral


[The End]

Hi Sun Matrix:

Sun >> Went off the deep end last night reading 1 Thessalonians 5. When they say peace and safety then sudden destruction cometh. The day of the Lord begins at the sixth seal.

We disagree. John is standing inside the “Lord’s Day” (Revelation 1:10) back in Revelation 1. The ‘trumpet’ heard ‘behind’ John is Paul’s trumpet from 1Corinthians 15:52 and 1Thessalonians 4:16. That last reference includes the “voice of the archangel,” which chains Satan (Rev. 20:2) right here behind John in Revelation 1:10. That marks the beginning of seven church periods that overlay the seven kingdom parables of Matthew 13:



Elijah begins his restoration of all things (Matt. 17:10-11) with the ‘sowing’ aspects of the first three church periods, until the false church springs up within with the good and bad seed separated at the ‘end of the age.’ The dragnet represents the angels gathering “The Elect” (Matt. 24:31) and everyone obeying the ‘eternal gospel’ of Revelation 14:6, just prior to the Judgment. Note that our Rapture (1Thes. 4:17) is on the left side of the diagram, with Christ's "Second Coming" (Matt. 24:30+31) on the far right side. There are no ‘seals’ or ‘sixth’ anything in Paul’s Epistles to the Thessalonians on this topic. GL,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

The antichrist’s “time” is NOT in our mystery time of today, as there is not even a Temple in Jerusalem for him to make desolate! Elijah must return first and restore all things, which includes the tabernacle of David (Acts 15:16-18), before the antichrist can even think about coming; and THEN only after the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ goes to the whole world (Matt .24:14).

Ummm,Terral, the "gospel" has been spread across the whole world. The temple hasn't been built yet, but the "gospel" has been spread across the world.

[edit on 21-10-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]

I posted this earlierwww.conservativeonline.org...

It states that there are writings that the pretrib rapture was taught before 1830, so this would refute the title of this thread.

What people need to understand is this:
Jude:vs.3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
vs.4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Almost from the beginning, people who really weren't christians, began to infiltrate the true christian churches. Along with this infiltration came false knowledge, and a perversion of what the Gospel and teachings of Jesus Christ really are. These false christians also compromised the truth with the world by introducing and/or trying to take things of the world and put a christian spin on them. But we are told that a little leaven(false teachings, sin) leavens the whole lump.

So that by the time of the late 2nd to early 3rd centuries it was getting harder and harder to find people who knew and taught the truth about Jesus Christ and salvation and the Bible(It wasn't impossible, just harder, but God does sustain a remnant of people throughout history who are faithful to Him). Then the dark ages came into which the truth had become almost unknown. So that things that were false were known(out in the open and practiced), and things that were true were unknown(hidden). But thank God for the reformation when men(even men before Martin Luther) who started to once again bring the truth to light.

So it should surprise no one that the rapture was known then supressed, then once again would be brought out of it's supressed state. And what would this take, first of all men and women of God to bring it out into the open again, and also time, as in years. So if it took a couple of hundred years to supress the truth, why should we not think, that it wouldn't take some years too once again reveal the truth and timing of the rapture.

[edit on 21-10-2006 by dbrandt]

I hope it all works out just the way you're banking on it dbrandt.

As for me, I'm going to go with what Christ said, John saw and the scriptures recorded. That means I'll have to rely on faith in God's Will - that seems like a far more healthy spiritual position to take than thinking I'm getting some gravy train ticket out when there's not a single scripture - not a single scripture - to back that hope.

Originally posted by Valhall
I hope it all works out just the way you're banking on it dbrandt.

As for me, I'm going to go with what Christ said, John saw and the scriptures recorded. That means I'll have to rely on faith in God's Will - that seems like a far more healthy spiritual position to take than thinking I'm getting some gravy train ticket out when there's not a single scripture - not a single scripture - to back that hope.

1. Could you explain what you mean by you are relying on God's will?

2. This "gravy train" is how anyone is saved, by faith alone in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sin.

3. You say that there is not a single scriptureto back up that hope. Not true, go here

www.abovetopsecret.com...

and I have listed many verses telling of the pretribulation rapture, its halfway down the first page.



[edit on 21-10-2006 by dbrandt]

Originally posted by Valhall
I hope it all works out just the way you're banking on it dbrandt.

As for me, I'm going to go with what Christ said, John saw and the scriptures recorded. That means I'll have to rely on faith in God's Will - that seems like a far more healthy spiritual position to take than thinking I'm getting some gravy train ticket out when there's not a single scripture - not a single scripture - to back that hope.

We battle not against flesh and blood but against powers and principalities.

The battle is happening now...........You should be experiencing some type of tribulation currently.

We are not looking for any easy ticket out...........The war is happening now. We look to overcome now.

Originally posted by dbrandt


1. Could you explain what you mean by you are relying on God's will?

2. This "gravy train" is how anyone is saved, by faith alone in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sin.

3. You say that there is not a single scriptureto back up that hope. Not true, go here

www.abovetopsecret.com...

and I have listed many verses telling of the pretribulation rapture, its halfway down the first page.

[edit on 21-10-2006 by dbrandt]

You state:

1. I believe being taken to heaven before the tribulation is one of those rewards. I believe that this is the crown of righteousness that is talked about in 2 Timothy 4:8.

While belief is the only requirement for salvation, there's a reason for that belief, because we are told to believe it. We are not told that the "crown of righteousness" is a pre-tribulation rapture...nor are we even slightly hinted at that it is.

2. 2 Thessalonians 2:3 talks about a falling away that will happen. You need to get a concordance for the Bible so you can study seriously. The word used can mean "departing". This is a verse that could and probably does have a dual application. Departing means going away from true christianity and departing can also be christians departing for heaven in the rapture.

You cannot depart the faith if you are never in the faith. And again, it "can" mean christians departing for heaven in the rapture, but no where in the scriptures does it say that's what it means. Instead, it says departing (falling way) from the faith.

3. 2 Thess. 2:5-8 Someone is holding back the tribulation period and the appearing of the anti-christ. The only one stronger than satan is God(Holy Spirit). The Holy Spirit resides in christians right now and so when He is removed we are removed. God has promised that He would never take His spirit from us, so if He goes we go.

1Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, 2not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. 3Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
5Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

2 Thess. 2:1-8

Once again, the gathering will not come until Christ returns and Christ will not return until after the antichrist has appeared.

4. Luke 21:36 talks about a way to escape all the things to come(Jesus just talked about the end times before these verses). The word "escape" has the meaning of vanish which is what will happen in the rapture.

7"Teacher," they asked, "when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to take place?"

8He replied: "Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am he,' and, 'The time is near.' Do not follow them. 9When you hear of wars and revolutions, do not be frightened. These things must happen first, but the end will not come right away."

10Then he said to them: "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11There will be great earthquakes, famines and pestilences in various places, and fearful events and great signs from heaven.

12"But before all this, they will lay hands on you and persecute you. They will deliver you to synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors, and all on account of my name. 13This will result in your being witnesses to them. 14But make up your mind not to worry beforehand how you will defend yourselves. 15For I will give you words and wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to resist or contradict. 16You will be betrayed even by parents, brothers, relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death. 17All men will hate you because of me. 18But not a hair of your head will perish. 19By standing firm you will gain life.

20"When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

25"There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26Men will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

29He told them this parable: "Look at the fig tree and all the trees. 30When they sprout leaves, you can see for yourselves and know that summer is near. 31Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near.

32"I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 33Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

34"Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with dissipation, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you unexpectedly like a trap. 35For it will come upon all those who live on the face of the whole earth. 36Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man."

Luke 21: 7-36 - New International

Note - it says we'll be here. It says we need to remain vigilant or the day of the Lord will fall upon us unaware. And our "day of redemption" will not come until Christ's return.

Parallel Verses

Hi Speaker:

Terral Original >> The antichrist’s “time” is NOT in our mystery time of today, as there is not even a Temple in Jerusalem for him to make desolate! Elijah must return first and restore all things, which includes the tabernacle of David (Acts 15:16-18), before the antichrist can even think about coming; and THEN only after the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ goes to the whole world (Matt .24:14).

Speaker >> Ummm,Terral, the "gospel" has been spread across the whole world. The temple hasn't been built yet, but the "gospel" has been spread across the world.

You do not know the differences between the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ (Matt. 24:14) and Paul’s “word of the cross” (1Cor. 1:18) gospel message (1Cor. 15:3+4) we preach today:

-----------------
No one has been saved by this gospel message for almost 2000 years. Our gospel for today is #2 below:
-----------------

I. Gospel of the Kingdom (Matthew 4:23 , 9:35, 24:14, Acts 8:12). Gospel to the Circumcised. Galatians 2:7.

1. The good news that the ‘kingdom of heaven’ is ‘at hand’ (Matthew 3:2, 4:17, 10:7). i.e., ‘preaching the kingdom’ (Acts 20:25).
2. According to Prophecy; seen by the OT Prophets. Isaiah 40:3, Malachi 3:1.
3. Obtain eternal life by keeping the commandments. Matt. 19:16+17.
4. Water baptism (during confession) for the ‘forgiveness of sins.’ Mark 1:4, Acts 2:38. (John’s Baptism; Acts 19:3; name of the Father; John 1:6, 33, Matt. 28:19.)
5. Baptism in the ‘name of the Lord Jesus’ (Acts 8:16, 19:5), ‘name of the Son’ (Matthew 28:19)
6. Receive the Spirit through the baptism in the ‘name of the Holy Spirit’ (Matthew 28:19) through the laying of hands (Acts 8:17, 19:6).
7. Justified by ‘works and not by faith alone.’ James 2:20-24.
8. Kingdom disciples are under Mosaic Law (Matthew 5:18, James 2:10).

----------------
This is our “word of the cross” (1Cor. 1:18) gospel for today, apart from borrowing any works from Gospel #1 above.
----------------

II. Paul’s “my gospel” (Romans 2:16, 16:25, etc.). Gospel to the Uncircumcised. Galatians 2:7.

1. The gospel of the grace of God (Acts 20:24), the ‘word of the cross’ (1Corinthians 1:18).
2. According to the revelation of the Mystery; NOT seen by the OT prophets. Romans 16:25.
3. Saved by God’s grace through faith APART from works. Ephesians 2:8+9.
4. Sins forgiven through the redemption IN Christ (Romans 3:24) and His shed blood (Ephesians 1:7).
5. Our ‘one baptism’ (Eph. 4:5) is done by the ‘one Spirit’ (Ephesians 4:4) into the ‘one body’ (1Corinthians 12:13), which is into “Christ’s body” (1Corinthians 12:27).
6. We receive the Spirit when hearing (Romans 10:17) and believing (Ephesians 1:13+14) Paul’s Gospel by ‘hearing with faith.’ Galatians 3:2.
7. We are justified by faith apart from works. Romans 4:4-6.
8. We are under grace and not under law. Romans 6:14.
--------------

The diagram showing where these two gospels are ‘active’ looks like this:



John the Baptist (Matt. 3:1-6), Christ (Matt. 4:17-23, 9:35) and the Twelve (Matt. 10:5-7, Acts 2:38) all preached the Gospel #1 above to ISRAEL ONLY. Peter’s ‘early rains’ (James 5:7) Kingdom ‘bride’ (John 3:29) church was ‘cut off’ (Revelation 20:4) with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 AD. Nobody has been saved by obeying the “gospel of the kingdom” for almost 2000 years, as this ‘Dispensation Of God’s Grace” (Eph. 3:2) came in with the Apostle Paul, so the “Body of Christ” (Eph. 4:12) could be gathered “first” (Acts 15:14). You and I are supposed to be preaching Gospel #2 above, except for the fact that MANY of you do not even know the difference. This is the “abovetopsecret” aspect my “Gospels Thread” ( www.belowtopsecret.com... ) that the powers that be here sent down to BTS to make room for Threads like “Pope on gay offensive again,” “Sathya Sai Baba” and yet another “Nephilim” Thread.

How many threads appear with the term “Gospel” on the first ten pages of the “Conspiracies In Religions” Forum? How about the “Gospel Of Judas” on Page 7 and “The Conspiracy of the “other” Gospel” on Page 10? Are we to assume that no ATS member has started any Gospel threads outlining the fact that Christ died for our sins AND God raised Him from the dead on the third day? 1Cor. 15:3+4? Or, should we assume that like my “Gospels” Thread they have been moved like all the Rapture Threads??? I have never seen such micromanagement of Bible Topic Titles in my life, which points to a ‘conspiracy’ among the ‘powers that be’ systematically moving some titles down to BTS on a regular basis. What does Paul say on this topic?

“For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel [#2 above], God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.” Romans 2:14-16.

God is going to judge the secrets of men through what Scripture calls Paul’s “my gospel,” but practically nobody here has any clues about the VAST differences. John the Baptist is Elijah (Matt. 11:14), but part of Israel’s ‘transgression’ (Romans 11:11) was their failure to ‘recognize’ (Matt. 17:12) him.

“. . . but did to him whatever they wished. So also the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.” Matthew 17:12.

The Jews rejected God’s offering of the kingdom three times from John the Baptist (from God = John 1:6) and the Son (from God = John 3:16-18) and the Twelve (Steven = “Crown” = full of the Holy Spirit = Acts 6:5, 7:55). Open your eyes to the fact that we preach Gospel #2 today! The “gospel of the kingdom” (Matt. 24:14) will once again become ‘the gospel,’ when Elijah returns to restore all things (Matt. 17:10-11), which STARTS the “Day of the Lord” shaded in blue. GL seeing the differences.

In Christ Jesus through Gospel #2,

Terral

Originally posted by dbrandt
You say that there is not a single scriptureto back up that hope. Not true, go here www.abovetopsecret.com...

You say that there is a bunch of stuff in the bible talking about the rapture. Not true, go here - www.belowtopsecret.com...

The MISINTERPRETATIONS about rapture (interjecting 'rapture' into scripture that doesn't mean that at all) have been debunked there.

Sorry dbrant but ya' see - for every time ya'll say 'this scripture means rapture', another bible reader can debunk it and then point to other scripture quotes that say that there won't be a rapture.

Edited to add - I don't know why that first line is all in red. I didn't do it. So don't take it as anything or as any kind of intent. I'm not computer savy ..

Originally posted by dbrandt
I posted this earlier www.conservativeonline.org...
It states that there are writings that the pretrib rapture was taught before 1830, so this would refute the title of this thread.

Good find debrant.

However, Edwards is just basically the same as Darby. Someone a hundred years before Darby who 'got it wrong' and tried to insert the error into the belief system. As for the early church ... claiming that rapture was in writings that were 'lost' or 'destroyed' or gleened out by followers is CONVENIENT for rapture believers to say the least. No proof. Just 'conspiracy'.

An article that disputes yours.
www.catholic.com...

For every article you find that says the teaching was there, I can find others that say it wasn't.




[edit on 10/22/2006 by FlyersFan]

Hi DBrandt, Valhall:

I wanted to thank you for the fine debate we were having ( www.belowtopsecret.com... ), before my Rapture thread was booted down to BTW; according to someone’s personal ‘Deny Ignorance’ Campaign.

Dbrandt >> It states that there are writings that the pretrib rapture was taught before 1830, so this would refute the title of this thread.

Welcome to the party, because Paul refutes the ridiculous OP claim in 1Corinthians 15:51-53 and 1Thessalonians 4:13-17, which none of the “NO RAPTURE” members wish to address. Anyone backing them into the corner to reveal their foolishness can expect to receive three warnings, 1500 points removed and all their threads booted down to BTS.

Dbrandt >> Almost from the beginning, people who really weren't christians, began to infiltrate the true christian churches. Along with this infiltration came false knowledge, and a perversion of what the Gospel and teachings of Jesus Christ really are.

True, true and true! Paul calls them the “servants of righteousness” (2Cor. 11:15) serving their “angel of light” (2Cor. 11:14) under the guise of the “Mystery of Iniquity” (2Thes. 2:7). This is the same resistance we face on this ATS Board even today in the “NO RAPTURE” crowd working feverishly to ensure most everyone remains sound asleep on these ‘The Mystery” (Eph. 3:3 = 1Cor. 15:51) topics.

Dbrandt >> These false christians also compromised the truth with the world by introducing and/or trying to take things of the world and put a christian spin on them. But we are told that a little leaven (false teachings, sin) leavens the whole lump.

Amen (you get my last vote)! We are much better off having an atheist presiding over these deliberations than the ‘servants of righteousness’ working under the “deluding influence” continually spewing out “what is false” (2Thes. 2:11) using words smooth like honey. The untaught and unstable were distorting the ‘wisdom given him’ (Paul) to their “own destruction” (2Pet. 3:14-16) even before 100 AD, which finds MANY on this Board doing the same exact thing.

Valhall’s Reply >> I hope it all works out just the way you're banking on it dbrandt. As for me, I'm going to go with what Christ said, John saw and the scriptures recorded.

In other words, she is willing to totally ignore the ‘wisdom given him’ and the fact that Paul’s “our gospel” is veiled to those who are “PERISHING.” 2Corinthians 4:3+4. They blend the two gospels of the NT into one ‘man-made’ false gospel that DOES NOT SAVE, which disqualifies them from being illumined by God’s Spirit ( see Vines’ ‘mystery’ definition again: www.antioch.com.sg... ) to see ‘the truth revealed’ properties of these ‘mystery’ topics. How many times do Hebrews, James, Peter and John use the term “mystery” in all the combined Epistles bearing their names? ZERO. The Apostle Paul uses the term 20 times to teach doctrines about things “Hidden IN GOD” (Eph. 3:9) but ‘now’ revealed through his ministry. And yet, Valhall here runs back to what Christ taught Israel ONLY (Matt. 15:24) and forward to the ‘prophetic’ events of Revelation, which allows her to skip right pass the ‘wisdom given him’ (2Pet. 3:14-16).

Valhall >> That means I'll have to rely on faith in God's Will - that seems like a far more healthy spiritual position to take than thinking I'm getting some gravy train ticket out when there's not a single scripture - not a single scripture - to back that hope.

What ignorance! What does Paul teach as part of this ‘mystery’ (1Cor. 15:51) topic?

“Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory. "O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?" 1Corinthians 15:51-55.

“For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself WILL DESCEND FROM HEAVEN with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God [1Cor. 15:52] , and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds to MEET THE LORD in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.” 1Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Paul is talking about the ‘body of Christ’ (Eph. 4:12) mystery church (Eph. 5:32) called the “His Body” Church (Col. 1:24) currently on the earth TODAY. However, Christ (Matt. 24:3+) is giving detailed ‘prophetic’ events on the topic of “Your Coming” at the “End of the Age” some 3000 Years LATER down the road. Valhall is basing her theology on what Christ told the ‘early rains’ (James 5:7 = Peter, John, James, etc.) kingdom ‘bride’ (John 3:29) about what will happen for the “late rains” kingdom bride from the restored kingdom of Elijah that starts “After These Things” (Acts 15:16-18) of today.



Daniel (Prophet’s Vision on left) can see clearly into the “1000 Year Day Of The Lord” on the far right hand side of the diagram, but he sees NOTHING within this “Mystery Revealed” Period between Paul’s conversion (Acts 9:15) and our “Body Rapture” (1Thes. 4:17). Elijah returns (Matt. 17:10-11) to restore all things to START the blue section, so the antichrist (Matt. 24:15) can make that restored Kingdom ‘desolate’ very near the ‘end of the age’ on the far right hand side near the “Great Tribulation” shaded in purple. Daniel (Dan. 11:31, 12:11-13) and Christ (Matt. 24:3+)are BOTH describing “end of the age” (Dan. 12:13, Matt. 24:3) events that END the 1000 Years, while Paul is showing ‘us’ how that Period BEGINS. Why does Valhall and her “NO RAPTURE” comrades insist that Paul’s verses above do not even exist?

Heh . . . Ask them! GL.

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

[edit on 22-10-2006 by Terral]

Originally posted by Terral
my Rapture thread was booted down to BTW; according to someone’s personal ‘Deny Ignorance’ Campaign.

The MODS moved it terral. The MODS are doing their job by removing it and putting it down in BTS with the rest of the INTERPRETATION threads.

It's not a 'personal Deny Ignorance Campaign' ... it's their job.
Is that paranoia you displaying? You certainly are taking the mods personally.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Sorry dbrant but ya' see - for every time ya'll say 'this scripture means rapture', another bible reader can debunk it

However, Edwards is just basically the same as Darby. Someone a hundred years before Darby who 'got it wrong' and tried to insert the error into the belief system.

For every article you find that says the teaching was there, I can find others that say it wasn't.

And vice versa I can tell why verses speak of a rapture, and find other people, Bible scholars, who agree that there is a pretrib rapture. So just because you say it isn't so doesn't make it less true in my eyes and studies. And I realize the opposite works for you. So that is why the Bible needs to be continuously read and studied because God reveals everyday new things to a person in it and confirms things as it is read..

So Edwards was 100 years before Darby in saying that there is a rapture before the tribulation. That's exactly my point. The starter of this thread said it wasn't even thought of until 1830. No, I just found out about a man who realized this concept 100 years prior. Who knows, I may find a man or woman who was 100 years before Edwards, that's my point. Plus there were at least 1st and 2nd and 3rd century christians who spoke of it.

And I don't at all mean this as a dig at you, but there is no way to not have it come out that way. You follow the Catholic church, it is very flawed in what it teaches and believes about Christ and salvation.

Hi Flyer, Nygdan and 12m8keall2c (mentioned) :

Flyer >> The MODS moved it terral. The MODS are doing their job by removing it and putting it down in BTS with the rest of the INTERPRETATION threads.

It's not a 'personal Deny Ignorance Campaign' ... it's their job. Is that paranoia you displaying? You certainly are taking the mods personally.

Not at all. The eleven Mods presiding over the “Conspiracy In Religions” Forum have nothing at all to do with any of this micromanaging of Thread “Topic Titles” at all. Nygdan intervened and gave me warnings, when my behavior began to cross the line using a firm hand; which is very much appreciated. These are the kinds of warnings that allow us to continue discussing these topics in a ‘friendly debate’ mode, which presents future readers with much more palatable ‘on-topic’ threads. 12m8keall2c was kind enough to move my “Rapture” thread to this room, when I inadvertently posted it in the “9/11 Conspiracies” Forum by mistake. He saw no reason to send the thing down to BTS and I doubt if any of the Mods in this room would have decided to question his decision.

Your statements above are presumptuous and down right insulting to say the least, because none of my threads were sent down to BTS over any “Mod” doing their job. Byrd, Valhall, Marg, SpeakerOfTruth and their ‘scholar’ buddies were being backed into a very small corner on about page 2 or 3 on this thread and one of them called for Springer to Spring into action. Did one of our gracious Mods (11 of them) sift through my 4 threads and decide the ‘content’ required them to receive BTS status? No.

None of my threads have been moved to BTS by any Mod at all AND none have been moved by anyone other than Springer on that particular day (all 4 at once). However, the same members will continue to be backed into very tight corners, because their positions are grounded upon NOTHING in God’s Living Word. The fact is that you are one of the members standing with the “NO RAPTURE” crowd and now you are here to defend Springer’s handiwork. I have seen 12m8keall2c lock threads and take “Mod” actions against particular Thread Starters, but he always gives them a good reason explaining “why.” Knowing why a thread is locked or moved allows everyone else to draft their OP’s accordingly, but Mr. Springer afforded me no such luxury. I cannot imagine Nygdan moving 4 of my threads simultaneously without also letting everyone know his reasoning. The fact is that some among us take liberties and do whatever they wish, when the emotion strikes them, and the second class Moderators and the third class members had better not interfere.

Every single Thread in here is an ‘interpretation’ thread, because some third class member took the time to present a thesis on a particular “Religion” Topic. Our ‘twist’ is what makes the “Topic” our own, until someone decides on a whim to launch it into oblivion elsewhere. Therefore, please do not accuse our Moderators of conspiring to participate in micromanaging Topic Title content in this Forum, when they are as powerless to do anything as the members. The playing field in this Forum is tipped in the direction of the “NO RAPTURE” Theorists, but that has nothing at all to do with any Moderators.

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

Valhall,

1Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, 2not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come.

Paul is talking to Gentiles. He is saying that the coming of the Son of man has not happened. You did not miss the catching away that I have told you of. The Day of the Lord and coming wrath is not at hand.

Is there another gathering that Paul is referring to ? What verse will that gathering be in???????????????

I Thessalonians 4:13-18...

13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words.

specifically and explicitly states the following finer points that seem to want to be rejected:

1. God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
2. we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
3. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
4. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

This is definitively the Second Coming of Christ, which cannot occur until after the antichrist (we've already covered that point ad nauseum) and is at the end of the tribulation. This is a post-tribulation rapture billboard passage, if you will.


[edit on 10-22-2006 by Valhall]

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth

Anyway, during the three and a half years believers will be out in the wilderness trying to survive. This,I am afraid, is about the closest thing to a "rapture" that anyone will see. The so-called "rapture" will be a separation of believers from the rest of the non-believing world.

those 3 .5 years,42 months,or 1,260 days will be 2007-2010..and yes..the believers will be raptured(abducted/evacuated)...meaning taken aboard spaceships and taken into the wilderness(deep space) were they will be far away from all stuff happening on earth.

there are believers and non believers...but understand that some believe that "they" are evil..and some believe "they" are here in peace....so whenn the time arrives..seperation will occur..all believers in the light will be taken..and the dark ones will have there place on earth.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
Valhall,

1Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, 2not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come.

Paul is talking to Gentiles. He is saying that the coming of the Son of man has not happened. You did not miss the catching away that I have told you of. The Day of the Lord and coming wrath is not at hand.

Is there another gathering that Paul is referring to ? What verse will that gathering be in???????????????

Sun Matrix,

Which verse is this?

Originally posted by dbrandt
And vice versa I can tell why verses speak of a rapture,

Exactly my point. We agree. There are some folks that preach rapture. There are bunches more that say there isn't. We can find someone out there to support just about any belief on the planet. We can find someone out there to debunk just about any belief on the planet.

The starter of this thread said it wasn't even thought of until 1830.

The modern rapture myth got it's really big kickoff with Nelson Darby. Prior to that it was not believed and definately only a very few fringe individuals that even thought of it. So when people say that rapture wasn't taught until Nelson Darby, they are correct. prior to that there were a few who misinterpreted it .. but he's really the cultist that got it going amongst the fundamentalists who believe it.

there were at least 1st and 2nd and 3rd century christians who spoke of it.

And there were 1st, 2nd, and 3rd century christians who spoke of Christ returning during their lifetimes and they were sure of it happening. I completely understand the thought that the closer you get to the events then the more accurate story you get. I completely agree. However, people in that time period got things wrong just as people in this time period do too.

the Catholic church, it is very flawed in what it teaches and believes about Christ and salvation.

I completely disagree (obviously). I'm going to give you a quote from Cardinal Newman - 'many people don't hate the Catholic church, but they hate what they think the Catholic church is.'

OFF TOPIC - Seriously ... sometime take a look at what the Catholic church says about salvation. DO NOT look at Jack Chick or fundamentalist protestants .. but look at the source. If I want to know what Baptists believe I'll ask a Baptist and not a Church of Christ person. Read the Catechism. Don't believe what anti-Catholic fundamentalist preachers say. In their clouds of hate and ignorance they usually get everything wrong. I pity them. Really.

Valhall:

Valhall >> Quotes 1Thes. 4:13-18 >> specifically and explicitly states the following finer points that seem to want to be rejected: 1. God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 2. we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 3. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 4. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

Valhall’s assertion >> This is definitively the Second Coming of Christ, which cannot occur until after the antichrist (we've already covered that point ad nauseum) and is at the end of the tribulation. This is a post-tribulation rapture billboard passage, if you will.

No! There are no (1Thes. 4) mention of wars, rumors of wars, famines, earthquakes or the other many signs listed from Christ’s ‘end of the age’ (Matt. 24:3+) Discourse in Matthew 24. Paul is describing events (1Cor. 15:51-53, 1Thes. 4:13-17) leading up to the START of the 1000 Years “Day of the Lord” (1Thes. 5:1+2), by connecting our fathering (1Thes. 4:17) to when that 1000 years Period is “at hand” (2Thes. 2:2). Ms. Valhall believes that connecting ‘our’ mystery (1Cor. 15:51) Rapture to the “Great Tribulation” a thousand times makes it true! No sir. Elijah must return and restore all things FIRST (Matt. 17:10-11), which includes the Temple (Eze. 40) and the Kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6+7 = Eze. 47+48). Valhall’s broken theology allows no 1000 years (2Peter 3:8) “duration” for the “Day of the Lord” (2Peter 3:10) that ‘begins’ AFTER our Rapture (1Thes. 4:17). Christ (Matt. 24) is giving prophecy for the END of the 1000 Years “Day of the Lord” Period, only after Satan has been released AFTER the 1000 Years is over.

“When the thousand years ARE COMPLETED, Satan will be released from his prison . . .”. Revelation 20:7.

Satan is chained with the ‘voice of the archangel’ (1Thes. 4:16) with the sound of the ‘trumpet’ heard “behind” John in Revelation 1:10. THAT binding of Satan is what allows Elijah to restore all things IN THE FIRST PLACE. David is restored as king/prince (Eze. 34:21-25), until a dozen references are made to “desolation / desolate” throughout Ezekiel 35+36. Only then (after the end of the age) do we see the resurrection (Eze. 37:11+12), so David can once again be installed as ‘prince/king’ FOREVER (Eze. 37:24-28). The 1000 Years “Day of the Lord” passes between our Rapture AND Satan’s release. Paul is describing our Rapture that coincides with Satan’s chaining, while Christ (Matt. 24) is talking about events taking place some 1000 Years LATER. Ms. Valhall is mixing the “beginning” and “end time” events TOGETHER without knowing the difference.

In Christ Jesus,

Terral