LaHaye's "Rapture" Ideology Was Not Even Considered Until 1830

It's not "Valhall's" doctrine, it's the scriptural doctrine. You, on the other hand, are pushing not only an unscriptural doctrine, but an anti-christ doctrine. You state that the gospel of Christ has not saved anyone in the past 2000 years, and that the Gospel of Paul is the only way to salvation. You are trying to push anti-christ teachings.

On a slightly different topic, are you a mason, Terral?

Originally posted by Valhall

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
Valhall,

1Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, 2not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come.

Paul is talking to Gentiles. He is saying that the coming of the Son of man has not happened. You did not miss the catching away that I have told you of. The Day of the Lord and coming wrath is not at hand.

Is there another gathering that Paul is referring to ? What verse will that gathering be in???????????????

Sun Matrix,

Which verse is this?

Sorry. I just copied it. That would be 2 Thessalonians 2

2 Thessaloninans 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 4 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Flyer:

Flyer >> I Read the Catechism. Don't believe what anti-Catholic fundamentalist preachers say. In their clouds of hate and ignorance they usually get everything wrong. I pity them. Really.

Some of us pity those writing on this “Rapture” Topic with talk about reading Catechism dogma rather than the Word of God. I would love to “quote >>” you writing on this topic, but you are here to simply “deny, deny, deny” the truth of Scripture. What do these verses teach in your Catechism book?

“Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory. "O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?" 1Corinthians 15:51-55.

“For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself WILL DESCEND FROM HEAVEN with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God [1Cor. 15:52] , and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds to MEET THE LORD in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.” 1Thessalonians 4:15-17.

How do you change Paul’s words to teach “NO RAPTURE” in the Bible? What does “we who are alive and remain will be CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds” mean to Flyer???? GL in the debate,

Terral

Originally posted by Valhall
It's not "Valhall's" doctrine, it's the scriptural doctrine. You, on the other hand, are pushing not only an unscriptural doctrine, but an anti-christ doctrine. You state that the gospel of Christ has not saved anyone in the past 2000 years, and that the Gospel of Paul is the only way to salvation. You are trying to push anti-christ teachings.

On a slightly different topic, are you a mason, Terral?

Terral is a Gnostic..............a special Gnostic.............He thinks even the other Gnostics are wrong. He serves a god that he refuses to name.

Right Terral. Does THE TRUE PROPHET ring any bells?

Thanks, Sun Matrix.

I'm having a hard time understanding why this part of that passage is being left out:

3Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

Once again, if we stick with the black letters, BUT ABOVE ALL THE RED LETTERS, and stop inserting letters into the white spaces, the scriptures turn out to be very clear. We don't have to put special "interpretative mysteries" into the words printed on the page. This passage states - don't be fooled by people who say the Day of the Lord has already come because you are now being told that day won't come until after the antichrist has appeared.

I think Terral has a personal need to be part of some great spiritual mystery, some hidden knowledge only he and whatever "followers" he can get to buy into his anti-christ doctrine will be privy to. As for me and my house, we're with the Lord. We don't need the Terral-tian doctrine.

The International Branch of the Lion of Judah.

Here's the main problem I have with you, Terral. You're underhanded. You are apparently ashamed of what organization you are part of and what wares you're selling. Why don't you come out of the True Prophet-closet, make your thread about how the only "true church" is your church and be open about what religion you're pushing?

Why do you have to veil all of this behind a facade of being a Christian and then bastardize the scriptures? It's very dishonest. It's - antichrist. That's what it is.

[edit on 10-22-2006 by Valhall]

Originally posted by Valhall
Thanks, Sun Matrix.

I'm having a hard time understanding why this part of that passage is being left out:

3Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

Once again, if we stick with the black letters, BUT ABOVE ALL THE RED LETTERS, and stop inserting letters into the white spaces, the scriptures turn out to be very clear. We don't have to put special "interpretative mysteries" into the words printed on the page. This passage states - don't be fooled by people who say the Day of the Lord has already come because you are now being told that day won't come until after the antichrist has appeared.

I'm really not quite sure what you mean about inserting letters as I copied that from one of your previous posts.

I have no problem with any of the verses. Verse 3 says that the DAY OF THE LORD will not happen until the man of sin be revealed.

The DAY OF THE LORD is NOT....NOT...NOT...the gathering together that Paul is talking about. Paul is talking about the catching away.


He is saying that you did not miss the coming of Jesus and the gathering together (being caught away) Don't worry that the DAY OF THE LORD is at hand. First the Antichrist will be revealed. We know this, so don't be troubled.


Let me make a suggestion if I might.

I suggest that you compare the verses between Matthew 24 and Luke 21 and determine if they are talking about the same thing.

[edit on 22-10-2006 by Sun Matrix]

[edit on 22-10-2006 by Sun Matrix]

Valhall:

Valhall >> Once again, if we stick with the black letters, BUT ABOVE ALL THE RED LETTERS, and stop inserting letters into the white spaces, the scriptures turn out to be very clear.

I am reading every syllable in the true ‘context’ through which they were given. Paul gave these Thessalonians a play by play preview of the ‘end of the age’ in their personal meeting, which he is referring to in this Second Epistle:

“Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? And you know what restrains him now, so that IN HIS TIME [Matt. 24:15] he WILL BE revealed.” 2Thessalonians 2:5+6.

Paul has just given these Thessalonians a preface to his “mystery of iniquity” (2Thes. 2:7) teaching spanning the upcoming verses of 7-12. You and I were not privy to the entire conversation to know Paul’s precise context, because he had spoken with this congregation personally and has been making references that those prior teachings. In short, these verses (2Thes. 2:2-6) are among the most difficult in all of Scripture to get right and God has given men several different ways of interpreting them; especially those under the “deluding influence” (2Thes. 2:11) of this same passage! The keys to hold and turn are found within Paul’s statement “so that IN HIS TIME he WILL BE revealed” from 2Thessalonians 2:6. The ‘restrainer’ is the Spirit of Prophecy itself, which says Elijah must come FIRST (Matt. 17:10-11) and restore all things. The antichrist cannot come BEFORE the Temple is even rebuilt – so stop being foolish!

We do not even preach the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ (Matt. 24:14) today, which is another prerequisite for the antichrist to appear “IN HIS TIME.” Since you do not even know the difference ( www.belowtopsecret.com... ), then a true explanation of our Rapture ( www.belowtopsecret.com... ) is light years beyond your current understanding.

Paul (2Thes. 2:1-12) is contrasting the ‘physical’ appearance of the antichrist “IN HIS TIME” (Matt. 24:15) at the ‘end of the age’ with the ‘mystery of iniquity’ gathering members to an evil body “in our time” of today. He is teaching that our Rapture (1Thes. 4:17) takes place, when the “Day of the Lord” is still “at hand” (2Thes. 2:2), which Sun Matrix appears to be understanding in a clear Light. Once again the diagram looks like this:



Find “Today” on the timeline and not Satan is chained (Rev. 20:2) to START the upcoming 1000 Years Day of the Lord, when we (body of Christ) are taken (1Thes. 4:17). “At hand” (2Thes. 2:2) means when that day “comes” or begins. Here is the part kicking Valhall’s theory in the teeth:

“Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth. For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, IS REVEALED [Matt. 24:30+31], then YOU ALSO will be revealed WITH HIM in glory.” Colossians 3:1-4.

Everyone here should try to pin Valhall down on finding another Coming (Matt. 24:30+31) of Jesus Christ “IN GLORY,” because the single “Second Coming” finds “us” returning WITH HIM. She says to stick to the black letters, but really means for everyone to simply swallow her ‘interpretation’ for little or no reason at all.

In Christ Jesus even now,

Terral

Valhall,


I have no problem accepting the fact that Paul is NOT talking about both the Rapture and the DAY OF THE LORD in 2 Thessalonians 2. I could present just as good of an argument the he is talking ONLY of the Day of the Lord.


It does not change whether there is a Rapture or not.

I strongly suggest you compare Matthew 24 and Luke 21.





[edit on 22-10-2006 by Sun Matrix]

Yes, Sun Matrix, I believe Luke 21 and Matthew 24 are speaking of the same thing. By the way, I wasn't accusing you personally of inserting anything...I was speaking of a general trend on this thread of taking scripture and modifying it by including concepts/words that don't exist in the referenced scripture.

Terral, I didn't see you come clean that this

You, on the other hand, are pushing not only an unscriptural doctrine, but an anti-christ doctrine. You state that the gospel of Christ has not saved anyone in the past 2000 years, and that the Gospel of Paul is the only way to salvation.

...is the anti-christ doctrine you're pushing. Why not? Those are your words, they're not mine. Why not own them...with pride.

Sun Matrix,

Just to make sure you understand my position on this. I believe in a rapture (i.e. a catching up of all believers). I can find no scriptural foundation for a pre-tribulation rapture - even though there have been a myriad of verses referenced right here in this thread, none have even hinted at a pre-tribulation rapture. I believe the rapture will occur simultaneous to the Coming of Christ. Just like all the scriptures explicitly state. I'm not a "no rapture" person as the deceiver insinuated. I'm a post-tribulation rapture person...because that's what the scriptures say.

[edit on 10-22-2006 by Valhall]

Originally posted by Valhall
I believe the rapture will occur simultaneous to the Coming of Christ.

That's exactly what I believe. When I say no rapture that's what I mean .. that there will be no 'get out of tribulation free' rapture.

We (Catholics, Episcopals, Lutherans, Methodists) don't call the simultaneous Coming of Christ and the lifting up of believers a 'rapture'. There isn't a name for that except that it's all one big package in the 'second coming'.

Originally posted by Valhall
Yes, Sun Matrix, I believe Luke 21 and Matthew 24 are speaking of the same thing.

They start out talk about the same thing but then........

Compare Matthew 24:9 to Luke 21:12

They are still talking about the same thing. Just because two different writers had two different statements within this Christ monologue that hit them as "sticking in their craw" doesn't mean all of a sudden you take two accounts of the obvious same speech and decide to say - they aren't the same thing. All it means is that for one writer the one statement hit him and he remembered to incorporate it, while the "woa unto pregnant ladies" statement hit the other writer that way. I don't for a minute believe either writer was able to recall Christ's speech verbatim and in it's entirety. I've always considered that a one of the major values of the four separate gospel accounts. They are four accounts that incorporate more through the combined retelling of four writers' memories than one writer could possibly recall.

Valhall,

I believe the word is insprired and take it word for word.

Matthew 24 continues to talk of the latter days. Luke 21 begins talking about things that happen prior to 70 AD. Not until Luke 21 vs. 27 do they run parallel again.

Sun Matrix,

If that's the way you want to interpret those two accounts, I have no problem with your personal decision. Now, with the acceptance that you take the difference the way you have stated, I must respectfully point out that STILL neither account refers to a pre-tribulation rapture.

Originally posted by St Udio
~~

as this is sorta winding down

here's a thought, Today's "Rapture" eschatology-
(as it developed over 8 decades)
just may have led western thought and our christian leaders to decide
on the past & present geopolitical policies & strategies...
that have got us into this mess we are in today ?

after all, isn't there the mindset preeminent in Christians, that; 'All I have to do
is to vocally profess that Jesus is my personal savior'...and all will be well!
because, as a christian i will automatically excape the tribulations
of the 7 trumpets, the 7 vials, the 7 bowls of Judgements
which will befall all the non-christians, who will not be "Raptured"

This is basically how i see the way things are going and the way in which professed christians are going to be persecuting TRUE christians when the time comes.

Jesus said that believers think they are doing God service by killing true christians.

All these doctrines and theologies to try to force their religious views into United States foreign policy and protect Israel and start wars with enemies of Israel all because of trying to hasten the fulfillment of prophecy is disheartening.

The most important thing Jesus taught throughout his ministry was two fold, love God and love your neighbor as yourself, not the establishment of a Jewish state to fulfill an interpretation of prophecy.

As far as the topic goes, i'm not even going to try to argue whether or not there is a pretrib or a post trib rapture. All i'll assert is that you look at both sides, and disregard what you have been taught in church, but dissect both points of view, and earnestly pray to God for discernment, and he shall lead us to all truth.

Saul before he became Paul most certainly thought he was walking the right path when he was persecuting christians, and i can't imagine what he was going through as he saw Jesus manifest himself to him to tell him that he was wrong.

How many of us are Saul, believing in false things thinking they are true?

Please Please Please, question your faith and see if it lives up to God's Word.

take care, and may God keep us from the hour of temptation and protect us in His Loving arms.

You have voted Shortness for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

Thank you, Shortness. No one could have said it better.

Sun Matrix, Valhall:

Valhall to Sun >> Just to make sure you understand my position on this. I believe in a rapture (i.e. a catching up of all believers). I can find no scriptural foundation for a pre-tribulation rapture - even though there have been a myriad of verses referenced right here in this thread, none have even hinted at a pre-tribulation rapture.

In fact, Ms. Valhall cannot find a single verse of Scripture connecting our mystery (1Cor. 15:51) Rapture (1Thes. 4:17) to any “Great Tribulation” (Matt. 24:21) at all. She thinks that strumming this same “post tribulation” guitar using NO SCRIPTURE at all is going to prove something. She makes the claims that Paul’s verses above are included somewhere after the Tribulation of Matthew 24, but FOR NO GOOD REASON WHATSOEVER. That is simply her opinion and she is sticking with it.

Valhall >> I believe the rapture will occur simultaneous to the Coming of Christ. Just like all the scriptures explicitly state.

Where does Christ mention the gathering of any “body of Christ” (Eph. 4:12) in Matthew 24?? Paul teaches that we are revealed with Him! Colossians 3:1-4. The OT Prophets see Christ’s Second Coming in Matthew 24 at the ‘end of the age,’ but NONE of them see Christ coming for “His Body” Church (Col. 1:24) to START the 1000 Years Day of the Lord. You need to remove those dark sunglasses and start reading Scripture with something near a true ‘context,’ because what you are teaching makes no Biblical sense whatsoever. The early rains bride (John 3:29) is raised with us at the First Resurrection (Rev. 20:5+6) to START the “Lord’s Day” (Day of the Lord) way back in Revelation 1:10 with the trumpet heard “behind” John. They are the “priests of God and of Christ” who “will reign with Him FOR A THOUSAND YEARS” (Rev. 20:6). How can any of these souls rule with Christ for the entire 1000 Years, IF they are gathered at the END of the thousand years at His Second Coming (Matt. 24:30+31)??? The members of “Christ’s body” (1Cor. 12:27 = that’s us) are “IN” the Lamb of Revelation from the very first chapter and we return “with Him” when He returns “in glory” (Col. 3:4 = Matt. 24:30+31).

Valhall >> I'm not a "no rapture" person as the deceiver insinuated. I'm a post-tribulation rapture person...because that's what the scriptures say.

So, ATS members who hold a different interpretation of these verses have become ‘deceivers,’ because Valhall says so. How quaint. How many of my arguments has she “quoted >>” to show errant using Scripture? ZERO. However, I quote her every word and show the folly of her “post trib” bullony at every opportunity. Who came along to restore the Temple that the antichrist must enter to stand in the “Holy Place” (Matt. 24:15), BEFORE Christ returns 3.5 years later in Matthew 24:30+31? Her broken theology does not include Elijah coming to restore ANYTHING; much less “all things” (Matt. 17:10-11) as prophesied by Christ Himself. Paul had no need to write about those ‘times and epochs’ (1Thes. 5:1+2) events where the kingdom is restored to Israel (Acts 1:6+7), because we are taken to START that 1000 Years restoration of ‘all things’ (Acts 3:21) period. Since Ms. Valhall cannot distinguish between the START (1Thes. 4:16+17) and the END (Matt. 24) of the same 1000 Years “Day of the Lord,” then she tosses everything into her single pot to take out what tastes good to Valhall. Hey, that is all fine and good for her, until she starts trying to sell that bullony to everyone else! She sees the “Day of the Lord” as ‘an event,’ and NOT the “1000 years” (2Pet. 3:8) that Peter says has escaped her notice.

In Christ Jesus even now,

Terral

Originally posted by FlyersFan
When I say no rapture that's what I mean .. that there will be no 'get out of tribulation free' rapture.

Why does this offend you?

I know you are a catholic(which you know I have problems with) but you maintain you are saved, and I surely hope that. So, you are saved and now you are living for God.

If you were engaged to someone and you lived 1500 miles apart. You are pledged to him and he to you. You miss him because you don't get to see him much. Now the area you live in is about to be hit by a disasterous hurricane. I mean ,it's coming. You know it and he knows it. You cannot leave anyway under your own power. Your fiancee has the means and ability to either come get you or get you a plane ticket out of there. He says, "No, go ahead and ride out the storm. I know alot of people died in hurricane katrina but lets take a chance".

How would that make you feel?