Hugo Chavez speaking at the UN Against American Imperialism and Bush the Devil

Muaddib,

Thats an interesting take on Chavez.
Would you say this man's administration could be categorized as Authoritarian?
I know he was "elected" but there are some serious allegations of Fraud, way worse than
anything claimed in the US. What have you heard from people there..When they are actually able to communicate freely?

Also, would you buy even 1 gallon of Gasoline From Citgo?

Originally posted by TheBandit795

Venezuela, Argentina and Brazil are one of the engines behind the forming of an entity that will be similar to the IMF. So I think that Chavez is making friends in South America. Besides... Most of South and Central America have suffered under the same corruption and power of big (American and European) corporations for most of the 20th century any way, so people like Chavez is a logical result of that.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Great thread Bandit.

Missed it.

...Seems corporate America is right PO's that their Northern Hemisphere Economic Union didn't fly - and the North American Union is just a fall-back position that is not particularly ....ummm, satisfying.

And Chavez was a strong player in blocking the Hemispheric Union, huh? Could that be why Bush and his boyz are so down on him? Do ya think?

Originally posted by XphilesPhan

yeah.......

the US is such a big meanie! we only give billions in Aid and support that joke called the UN.

All of it with strings attached too. How do you think the "coalition of the willing" was formed to go into Iraq? That's right, foreign aid. It's ironic, the countries that are giving money to support the initiative in Iraq are getting the money from America in the form of aid. In the end, they lend their name and we American taxpayers foot the bill.

Oh, and you might be interested to know, that America is the largest contributor to foreign aid, based on total dollars. But when broken down to dollars given compared to GDP, America lags behind several nations in foreign aid, and those countries contribute the aid without the expectation of getting something back in return. Aid is supposed to be a humanitarian gift, not another means to gain political power.

Originally posted by Muaddib

Do you even know what happened to Venezuela after Chavez took office?...

You think things are better over there?...

I keep in contact with one of my uncles, a Cuban doctor who was ordered to go to Venezuela, and he has been able to tell me that a lot of Venezuelans don't like Cubans, even if they are doctors, because they think Cubans are taking over Venezuela. In our last conversation, when i asked him how things were over there, i heard a click and we were disconnected, if you think that "listening in the U.S. by the government is bad" you should see how it is in Venezuela, and if you would read many of the speeches of Chavez, in Venezuelan sites which are pro-Chavez, you will see the bs that he spouts, claiming that only by getting rid of Capitalism around the world would the environment be saved and other bs propaganda... i have posted some of those speeches in these forums in the past.

That's interesting. Just the opposite of what someone who is down there right now says. My brother-inlaw does international consulting and one of his customers in in Venezuela. He travels there regularly (being forced to fly out of Miami because our government has restricted travel to and from Venezuela) and has never run into any of the issues you speak of. He says things are tense for Americans, but its the same in every country he travels to. Chavez is very nationalistic, but that's no different from Bush and his cronies. You may want to compare rhetoric. You'll find our over-zealous leadership is just as bad as their over-zealous leadership.

Originally posted by XphilesPhan
the US is such a big meanie! we only give billions in Aid and support that joke called the UN.

Ok you are right but roughly about 30% of that goes to Israel, then following in close 2nd is Egypt with about 22% , so thats over 50% of our entire International Foreign aid budget right there. To top that all off, the 30% we are giving Israel is what is CAUSING ALL THIS ANIMOSITY IN THE FIRST PLACE! Bad investment if you ask me. Foreign aid should not be used to oppress another people or to cause us to be linked to it , it should be used for humanitarian purposes ONLY.


Pie

Originally posted by SIRR1
I am confused???

Venezuela are they not as a majority the country Catholics?

Iran, who Hugo has sided with as a partner in crime are Muslims.

Are not Catholics infidels in the eyes of Islamic Fundamentalists?

So how is this going to work out if Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is a hardline Islamic loyalist, and here over the past week this same group is calling for the death of Pope Benidect the Catholic Church Leader.

Hugo is a communist along with Fidel and they really don't follow religon, but sometime, somewhere, somebody has to wisper in Hugo's ear and tell him that Mahmoud Ahmadinejad believes that the people of Venezuela's are not worth the time of day and are infildels because they are Catholics.

I don't see this working out when the WOT turns into a religous fight between Islam and Jews / Christians.

I guess the old saying is true, "Politics maks strange bedfellows."

Down through history Politicians have demonstrated their willingness to compromise their beliefs for the sake of power.
I can't wait to see if there is any fallout from his speech.

Being an American of Spanish-Native descent, this thread is near and dear to my heart. Chavez is power hungry and glory seeking. I dislike him intensely for the same reason I dislike Bush: they are for greater goverment control of the population. They are opposite sides of the same coin. Bush claims its for greater national security and Chavez says he's doing it to help the poor in his country but what he's really doing is laying the foundation for another communist govt within Latin America. He's going to become a dictator, mark my words. He tried a military coup in 1992 and will not give up power if he's elected out of office.
As far as his comments about moving the UN, please take it with my blessing. But before you go please pay all your unpaid fines that you've accrued abusing your diplomatic status while you were here in NYC. I believe that we should end all aid to foreign govts especially like keeping our troops in foreign countries defending foreign soil like Korea and Western Europe. It's a huge waste of our taxpayer money. It's time for the US to stop playing world cop and let other nations solve their problems locally.
With the money we save by not defending foreign soil, we can afford to keep our military fully modernized, provide full health coverage for their dependents as well as taking care of our veterans.

Maybe if more of the World Leaders got up to the podium at the UN and said exactly what they felt about Bush... maybe we could impeach the sob. Honestly, I thought that Chavez could have been a little more poetic about it... but he pretty much hit the nail on the head. Americans don't want war... at least He knows what we want... hell, our own government doesn't. Bush and our Government SUCK... so I can't see why anyone would get mad about any Leader saying it like it is. He didn't lie.... Bush does suck! He's a joke and only makes the worlds opinion of us Americans worse. He needs to be shot or impeached BEFORE he gets us into WWIII. I'm behind Chavez on this one. Hell, I'll even buy the bullets.

~Candyman~

Originally posted by crgintx
I believe that we should end all aid to foreign govts especially like keeping our troops in foreign countries defending foreign soil like Korea and Western Europe. It's a huge waste of our taxpayer money. It's time for the US to stop playing world cop and let other nations solve their problems locally.
With the money we save by not defending foreign soil, we can afford to keep our military fully modernized, provide full health coverage for their dependents as well as taking care of our veterans.

Ideally? Yes. But like it or not, when the cold war was "won", the USA assumed the role as the sole true international superpower. What happens if we pull troops out of south korea? Crazy Kim steamrolls South Korea. Bring our boys home from Iraq? The country dips into an even more chaotic state than it's in now, maybe even falls to iran and/or syria as the countries move toward one eventual islamic state.

One more thing. Would you rather our troops defend us on foreign soil or on American soil? Think about that. War hasn't been fought on American soil since the Civil War, 140 years ago. That's astonishing. We're lucky in that we don't have to constantly worry about an invasion. We don't go to bed at night wondering if tomorrow our country will be overrun by another nation. We are blessed with SECURITY. I don't care what anybody says, even after 9/11 the USA is the safest place in the world to be right now.

Idealism is fine in times of peace, but when the world is walking on a tightrope in regards to world stability, realism is the way to go. Are we overstretched? I don't know. But don't ever underestimate the good ol' US of A. And i'm not one of those outlandishly patriotic ethnocentrists either, i'm just telling it like it is. Hopefully Venezuela and Iran don't light the American fuse b/c if they do, well, it's going to simply be lights out all over the place.

Fragile times call for solid leaders. And i'm not so sure we have any of those in power anywhere right now.

Originally posted by worldwatcher
Does Chavez have invade America to be a threat to the US? NO not all. He just has to keep saying what he is saying and positioning himself with other leaders like he is doing to be a threat.

When I say Chavez is a threat to the US, he is. He represents, voices and expresses exactly what the US government doesn't want to see presented in the world front

Have I really got this right? Are you saying that anyone who disagrees with the US is a threat? Anyone who has a different opinion from the US, and who has the temerity to voice that opinion, is a threat to the US?

Is that really what you're saying? Because I don't actually see how it is a threat, and it sounds rather totalitarian to me. If you could explain to me how, precisely, the holding and expressing of different opinions is a threat to the US, I'd be grateful.

Is the US so flabby and useless that anyone who expresses exactly what the US government doesn't want to see presented in the world presents a threat to them?

I have an observation to make, and it is this: bullies live in fear.

he is a threat, just like how Castro is a threat, just like how Ahminajad and Kim Jong Il are threats. These people are threats to America because they are rocking the boat and not conforming.

I'm sorry, worldwatcher, but I have to say that this is not, to me, a terribly compelling argument, unless you're explicitly arguing in favour of US imperialism. Cuba is SUCH a threat. Their enormous army straddles the region and their consistent drive to upgrade their military makes other smaller nations tremble in their boots.... riiiight... I think that Cuba's major export is doctors, for heaven's sake. The US has been trying to put an economic stranglehold on Cuba for decades, and yet Cuba has one of the best (and best value) health care systems in the world.

Iran... this is becoming a joke. If anyone really thinks Iran is a threat to the US, they could try looking at this thread.

North Korea - yes, it's a hideous dictatorship. But it's bound together with the other countries by one thing, and one thing only: the US has put them on its target list. Kim Jong Il has said that they've developed nuclear weapons in response to US threats and I actually think he has a point. When I find myself admitting that, I realise just how much of a bully the US really is.

Chomsky (whom Chavez wants everyone to read - and I agree) would say that the real threat represented by Venezuela (and, to a lesser extent, Cuba) is the threat of a good example. Venezuela has taken the profits of its oil exports away from the tiny oligarchy that used to control it and used those profits to benefit a wider range of the population - in particular, the mestizos and native population, which is his own ethnic group, and which has been at the bottom of a non-existent ladder for generations. Health care, literacy programs and infrastructure is where the money is going. He's also trying to radically decentralise the government and encourage local people to take care of their own problems - he has repeatedly said that the greatest enemy of the people is corruption in government, and is attempting to deal with this by allowing Bolivarian committees at a very local level to take responsibility for the administration of their own regions.

The other aspect of his approach is to foster workers co-operatives, in which the workers of a company run that company.

Both of these aspects of his approach are what constitutes his real threat to the US - he's going to demonstrate that the US economic model, which is based on a particularly virulent form of state corporatism, is not the only game in town and is indeed not the most beneficial game in town. And I'd really like to see him succeed.

The quality of life in Venezuela is no way comparable to many countries in the Western world,

And the point I made in my previous point still stands. Until you understand what US economic hegemony means to the countries that suffer under it, you'll just look at every country south of the Rio Grande and think, "what a dump". You have to deal with the historical reasons why this is the case, and Chomsky has a lot to say on this subject. I boiled down what happens when US economic interests in the region are threatened. Like I say, it's a pattern, and it's repeated consistently in Guatemala, Haiti, Nicaragua, Chile, Argentina, Brazil, Colombia... I could go on. But what do these countries have in common? Well, for one thing, death squads. And where are these death squads trained? At the School of the Americas, where the training manuals, btw, advocated torture long before all the current fuss about it. Torture has been a tool of the US for decades - but it was outsourced, so it could be ignored.

Chavez faces the same internal problems that other countries deal with, this man is no saint.

He's no saint, certainly. But have a look at The Revolution Will Not Be Televised, a documentary made by an Irish film crew who were right there when the 2002 coup took place. You'll see that Chavez could walk freely among the populace in a way that Dubya never could, and that he took time every week to go on TV and take part in a phone-in programme.

(edit to fix some tags)

[edit on 21-9-2006 by rich23]

Originally posted by XphilesPhan
the US is such a big meanie! we only give billions in Aid and support that joke called the UN.

As ThePieMan rightly pointed out,

... roughly about 30% of that goes to Israel, then following in close 2nd is Egypt with about 22% , so thats over 50% of our entire International Foreign aid budget right there.

But there's more... and Israel is a good illustration of this. What does the US aid money get spent on? ARMS. And who supplies these arms? US CORPORATIONS.

So the vast majority of aid money goes right back into the pockets of the people who have bought the US government in the first place... which is really what you'd expect.

Also, there's a lot of stuff that's classified as aid which is simply the corporations getting rid of surplus product and getting some sort of credit for it, which is why a significant portion of aid is actually useless to the people who receive it. One well-known example is diet pills turning up in famine-stricken regions.

Per capita, US aid is also relatively piffling. Much smaller countries like Ireland and Sweden contribute much more in foreign aid per head of population than the US.

Hugo is just another enemy of the United States using Democrat talking points. When Kruschev threatened the US in front of the UN, the American people rallied around the effort. Now some are rallying to the enemy. Kinda makes me sick.

Pat Robertson was right, this idiot needs to be taken out. It should have been done a long time ago. But, now if Hugo has an "unfortunate accident" ie. Wellstone, JFK Jr etc., it might be a little obvious.

Originally posted by thecandyman
Maybe if more of the World Leaders got up to the podium at the UN and said exactly what they felt about Bush... maybe we could impeach the sob. Honestly, I thought that Chavez could have been a little more poetic about it... but he pretty much hit the nail on the head. Americans don't want war... at least He knows what we want... hell, our own government doesn't. Bush and our Government SUCK... so I can't see why anyone would get mad about any Leader saying it like it is. He didn't lie.... Bush does suck! He's a joke and only makes the worlds opinion of us Americans worse. He needs to be shot or impeached BEFORE he gets us into WWIII. I'm behind Chavez on this one. Hell, I'll even buy the bullets.

~Candyman~

This is unbelievable

This post is being reported to the proper authorities.

Suggesting Bush be assassinated and offering to buy the bullets? Dude you NEED to be checked out.

I'm all over it.

Originally posted by thecandyman
Honestly, I thought that Chavez could have been a little more poetic about it... but he pretty much hit the nail on the head. Americans don't want war... at least He knows what we want... hell, our own government doesn't.
~Candyman~

Candyman
Oh they knew very well we didn't want war , otherwise there would have been no reason to make stories up. They know exactly what we want at all times. Now wether or not they care what we want is a totally different story. Obviously when it comes to Iraq..they didn't care what we wanted, only what they did.


Pie

Originally posted by RRconservative
Pat Robertson was right, this idiot needs to be taken out. It should have been done a long time ago. But, now if Hugo has an "unfortunate accident" ie. Wellstone, JFK Jr etc., it might be a little obvious.

This post is being reported to the proper authorities.

Suggesting Bush be assassinated and offering to buy the bullets? Dude you NEED to be checked out.

Can you even see the hypocrisy in your posts? You call for the assassination of Chavez and in the next post attack another poster for doing the same thing.

I think Chavez put into words exactly what most of the world has been thinking for some time.

Rich23:

Excuse me, but the last time i checked, The United States of America was slightly more powerful and influential than Venezuela. I don't know, maybe i'm terribly mistaken. Venezuela is a good example? Of what? Some egotistical dictator to be rising to power by preying on the poor? This guy is just as power hungry and corrupt as those he's supposedly claiming he's fighting against. Wake up. It may be totally hip to bash the USA right now, but come on, saying Venezuela is an example we should follow is ludicrous. Our nations are in totally different places in our respective histories. Chavez is little more than a pesky fruit fly.

Yeah, you're right, "bullies live in fear". But at least bullies live. It's either bully or be bullied right now, and i think most would choose the former.

What if Bush stood in front of the UN and called a fellow world "leader" the devil? That would go over real well. Every single one of you would jump on this site and bash him for 30 pages on one thread. But Hugo Chavez, the mighty president of the mighty nation of Venezuela does it, and hardly anyone is outraged. I for one am outraged. I may not totally agree w/ Mr. Bush on everything, but this man is my president and i will not take kindly to these kinds of attacks on my president.

Chavez should shut his greedy mouth and go back to Venezuela. The United Nations is not a place for third grade name calling.

Originally posted by RRconservative
This is unbelievable

This post is being reported to the proper authorities.

Suggesting Bush be assassinated and offering to buy the bullets? Dude you NEED to be checked out.

I'm all over it.

You are saying he needs to be checked out and reported to the authorities because of what he said, yet you just posted a message agreeing with a religious fanatic claiming to be a christian to asassinate the leader of a foreign nation. Are you like in the Conservative Gestapo or something that you can make ridiculous statements solely?

Aren't you the same guy who said "One of the conditions for the release of the reporters was converting to Islam or to die....yeah thats the sign of a peaceful religion"? I guess as long as its your religion or someone you like, they can threaten or asassinate whoever they like huh?

Originally posted by worldwatcher
Does Chavez have invade America to be a threat to the US? NO not all. He just has to keep saying what he is saying and positioning himself with other leaders like he is doing to be a threat.

When I say Chavez is a threat to the US, he is. He represents, voices and expresses exactly what the US government doesn't want to see presented in the world front, he is a threat, just like how Castro is a threat, just like how Ahminajad and Kim Jong Il are threats. These people are threats to America because they are rocking the boat and not conforming. As a personal citizen, I don't see Chavez as a personal threat, but from the standpoint of a nation, Chavez is a threat.

That's a very true and astute observation... but it begs the question, is that really a bad thing?

Is the US so paranoid that it can't allow any possible threat to exist?

If the US was completely uncontested in all international matters, would that not be equal to global domination?

More cuttingly, what about the very widely held belief that the US is, infact, a threat to the rest of the world?

My point is, you can't silence every threat (real or imagined) without sliencing everybody.

As to Chavez himself, I've been following what I can about the man for awhile now. In general, I find him to be an idealist who faces very serious problems. Sometimes he does well, sometimes he doesn't. He makes mistakes and has successes. He's crafty, for sure. He does say and do things to further his own agenda, but please give me the name of a politition who doesn't! I think he believe that his agenda is morally correct. I find myself agreeing with alot that he has to say.
Then again, I like Chomsky.
I'm also kinda anti-capitalist.
*shrug*

He told Pres. Bush Hes going to live the rest of his days as a nightmare cause the rest of us is going to stand up.

Who is the rest of us?

What did he mean by that?

What the heck did that mean? Did he just threaten us? Seems that away to me.

Originally posted by Kwintz

Originally posted by crgintx
I

Ideally? Yes. But like it or not, when the cold war was "won", the USA assumed the role as the sole true international superpower. What happens if we pull troops out of south korea? Crazy Kim steamrolls South Korea. Bring our boys home from Iraq? The country dips into an even more chaotic state than it's in now, maybe even falls to iran and/or syria as the countries move toward one eventual islamic state.

One more thing. Would you rather our troops defend us on foreign soil or on American soil? Think about that. War hasn't been fought on American soil since the Civil War, 140 years ago. That's astonishing. We're lucky in that we don't have to constantly worry about an invasion. We don't go to bed at night wondering if tomorrow our country will be overrun by another nation. We are blessed with SECURITY. I don't care what anybody says, even after 9/11 the USA is the safest place in the world to be right now.

Idealism is fine in times of peace, but when the world is walking on a tightrope in regards to world stability, realism is the way to go. Are we overstretched? I don't know. But don't ever underestimate the good ol' US of A. And i'm not one of those outlandishly patriotic ethnocentrists either, i'm just telling it like it is. Hopefully Venezuela and Iran don't light the American fuse b/c if they do, well, it's going to simply be lights out all over the place.

Fragile times call for solid leaders. And i'm not so sure we have any of those in power anywhere right now.

I served 2 years in Korea and if we weren't over there the Republic of Korea would rolled all over the PRK 10-15 years ago. The North is slowly starving to death and Kim Jung Il believes he can still beat the far better equipped ROK Defense forces, he's really living in a fantasy world. The PRC are secretly hoping that a coup will happen in the north to stem the growing numbers of illegal N Korean refugees out of China.
Would I rather see American troops defending American soil, not only yes but hell yes. I 've personally escorted 2 of my fellow airmen home in body bags from the UAE in '93. All the oil in existence isn't worth the life of one person much less the thousands which have died on both sides of this conflict. This war is about who controls the Middle East oil reserves and keeps the profit from its sales.
You're obviously forgotten Pancho Villa's raid in New Mexico and Japan's invasion of the Aleutians during WW2. Alaska has been US territory since the 1870's.
Bush a solid leader, you're kidding right? The budget deficit is higher than it's ever been because of his unjustifible war in Iraq because SH tried to kill his father. He's paying back his corporate sponsors with obscene no-bid contracts that screw the American taxpayer out of nearly a trillion dollars during his terms as President. Impeach Bush Now! He's the son of intel spook and the grandson of a Nazi sympathizer. You've been watching too much Fox News Channel, Buddy.


[edit on 21-9-2006 by crgintx]