50+ People Dead in Israeli Air Strike on Apartment House.

Liquidus, go check the source yourself.

If you did, you'd notice, French, German, Spanish, British, Russian, United Nation's and many others are also sorced. To claim:

The ones supporting the arab agenda

I would like to see some proof. How is the BBC supporting the Arab Agenda? Are you claiming that Mark Thompson is Anti-Israeli? I'd also like to see any level of proof for such things or is this just a case of a different source having to be Pro-Arab because that's the only way you can debate? If it disagrees then it's just to promote the other agenda?

Anyway, as I said - I'd like to see proof in your next post the BBC is anti-Israeli or Pro-Arab. Whichever term you'd rather use.

How many of these "civillians" have ties to Hezbollah?

I don't know. However, I seriously doubt you do either for sure. So we have to look at both sides of it and even if Israel did kill 450 members of Hez. That's still only half of the people who have died in Leb. [900] So again, the point of Israel having lost 37 soldiers and 20 civilians still stands. Clearly Hez are more accurate with who they kill?

Had they any common sense they would have evacuated long ago.

How? Please do tell me, wehn the bridges have been bombed. The roads are attacekd, mini-buses [used for transporting civilians] attacked just in case Ham are using them and so on and so fourth.

Oh but wait, what kind of terrorists fight on an open battlefield...obviously something is lacking...oh why the civillian umbrella of course!

Yep, then Israel does the same thing. Let's take a look:
Camp Filon - Golan Heights
Camp Anatot - Anata
Camp Bar Lev and Camp Julis - Qiryat Mal'akhi
Camp Rabin - Tel Aviv.

They are all within or near civilian areas. Israel also bases themselves around civilian zones. However, whenever they are attacked they cry "civilians". It can't be done both ways, it is an either or situation here.

by denythestatusquo:

"....your signature is wrong I think.. isn't the Israeli shooting from in front of the US flag?

REPLY: Can I have some of what your doing??? Hmmmm..... you see a flag somewhere in my graphic? ..... with colors in it??? I no longer see grovers posts, but contact him, as he might see the same thing.

"....wouldn't that be closer to the truth of what is really going on in the middle east?

REPLY: Only if one is a barking moonbat, with no interest in, or knowledge of, history in the region.

JudahMaccabbi and Zenem: You're confusing odium and others with facts, and they'll argue 'till their last breath.

People who know nothing of war will do that, as will those who eternally believe that those who's only wish is to see you dead will change their mind if you talk nicely to them, and give them things.

The large discrepancy in injuries and death is because Hezbubble wouldn't let people leave, while Isreali people had the sense to move away from the areas that might be attacked, and Israel does not base or conduct their military operations from civilian areas.

Ex-president Pantload (mistakenly) brokered a deal in which Palestine would get 95% of what they wanted. Yessir Yourafart turned it down, and the Palestinian people were never made aware of the offer, or they probably would have taken it.

Again, there is no such thing as "occupied" lands by Israel; Palestine started four wars against Israel, and lost every one. Therefore, they are "conquered" lands, not occupied.

Originally posted by Odium

I would like to see some proof. How is the BBC supporting the Arab Agenda? Are you claiming that Mark Thompson is Anti-Israeli? I'd also like to see any level of proof for such things or is this just a case of a different source having to be Pro-Arab because that's the only way you can debate? If it disagrees then it's just to promote the other agenda?

BBC has frequently been a biased news source especially when it comes to the middle east--it's an indirect bias but nevertheless it is omnipresent. Whether it's billing chechen terrorists as "rebels" or "freedom fighters" to their regular reports about infrastructure damage in Lebanon or the aid hold up's because of the strikes--it's suttle but is almost always one-sided. Did you know that in Israel it is illegal to air most of the terrorist footage of rocket attacks, civillian Israeli casualties, etc. out of the fear that it might cause panic? I don't have time to find the link but the point is that while Hezzy are busy funding their Hezzwood studios they get sympathy from the world whereas half that Israeli footage of dead kids doesn't even get on the air.

Clearly Hez are more accurate with who they kill?

Yep, if I was running around in millitary camo uniform I'm sure accuracy wouldn't be an issue.

How? Please do tell me, wehn the bridges have been bombed. The roads are attacekd, mini-buses [used for transporting civilians] attacked just in case Ham are using them and so on and so fourth.

It doesn't have to be an out of the country evacuation! Many of these civillians probably know full well if they are at risk/close to terrorists...they could dissacociate themselves if they wanted to.

Yep, then Israel does the same thing. Let's take a look:
Camp Filon - Golan Heights
Camp Anatot - Anata
Camp Bar Lev and Camp Julis - Qiryat Mal'akhi
Camp Rabin - Tel Aviv.

They are all within or near civilian areas. Israel also bases themselves around civilian zones. However, whenever they are attacked they cry "civilians". It can't be done both ways, it is an either or situation here.

You're comparing a millitary base...(which I have yet to see proof of what you mean "in or around civillian zones") to terrorists taking shelter in civillian residential buildings. As if Israel has soo much plentiful land to ration of for isolated millitary bases...

Human Rights Watch just reassessed the numbers dead in the attack in Qana to 28. I guess half the dead were ressurrected.
They also supported Israeli claims that the attack occurred in 1:00 AM and not in the morning. This means that in between the air attack to the building's collapse 7 hours passed.
If we give it more time what more will come up? That a weapons cache explosion in the house is what caused the building to collapse?

Only time will tell.

zappafan1, oh how you bring a ray of sunshine into my days. :-)

JudahMaccabbi and Zenem: You're confusing odium and others with facts, and they'll argue 'till their last breath.

Confused? Where? I do still believe, I am the one who time and time again shows sources, gives names and place. Where as you again make an attack upon me [and others].

People who know nothing of war will do that, as will those who eternally believe that those who's only wish is to see you dead will change their mind if you talk nicely to them, and give them things.

Wrong again. The I.R.A. bombed towns where I lived when I was growing up, in fact one of them went off within 100 yards from where I was. I also remember it very clearly and is one of the first things I do remember. As well as the 7/7 bombings and so on and so fourth. So don't make out like I have no idea what it is like.

Liquidus

Did you know that in Israel it is illegal to air most of the terrorist footage of rocket attacks, civillian Israeli casualties, etc. out of the fear that it might cause panic?

You must be joking right? Israel is 8,019 sq mi. In the Northern part of Israel, it is easy enough to see and hear these sorts of things happening. Don't try and make out as though the public are ignorant of what is going on there. Clearly, by the report after report and interview on T.V. stations with people from Israel they do know.

BBC has frequently been a biased news source especially when it comes to the middle east--it's an indirect bias but nevertheless it is omnipresent.

Again, I ask to see where? If anything, shows like Newsnight have been very critical of Hez. If you said Channel 4, I'd have understood these claims. But the BBC has been overly balanced on this issue. In fact, in every debate they have mentioned that Hez started this round of conflicts. That's not Pro-Arab.

It doesn't have to be an out of the country evacuation! Many of these civillians probably know full well if they are at risk/close to terrorists...they could dissacociate themselves if they wanted to.

Dissacociate themselves? So they disagree? How you know they do not dissacociate themselves? Fact of the matter is you do not. All you do know is, that Hez used civi buildings as shields.

You're comparing a millitary base...(which I have yet to see proof of what you mean "in or around civillian zones") to terrorists taking shelter in civillian residential buildings. As if Israel has soo much plentiful land to ration of for isolated millitary bases...

Proof? I gave you the names of the places and where they are near. Other than going and taking illegal photos of these bases [during a time of war] there's not much else that is needed. It's just you refuse to accept they do it.

Furthermore, Lebanon is 4,035 sq mi and Israel is 8,019 sq mi. So your own arguement can come under question. Clearly, if Israel is allowed to have bases near civilian areas due to land size than Hez can do the same. If it is wrong for Hez to target these bases due to them being near civilian areas than the same goes for Israel.

JudahMaccabbi, why don't you answer my questions or statements about Irgun? When given operation names do you turn a blind eye now?

[edit on 3/8/2006 by Odium]

Originally posted by Souljah
Ask yourself, how many Murders does a Western Child see on TV by the age of 7.

Ask youreslf, how many Violent Video Games does a Western Child play by the age of 7.

And you are going to Preach us about Islamic Society?

Ask yourself how many western teenagers blow themselves up on busses? It's a two way street souljah.

I find it absolutely appalling that some of you justify or write off civilian deaths by claiming that they were associated with hezbollah...they were civilians you morons, non combatants stuck in a bad situition. Your kill them all approach is obscene. And you have the fricking nerve to take ME to task when rightly or wrongly I take a moral stance that the whole bloody thing is wrong. Idiots!!!

Odium,

Excuse my lack of brain power! Haven't I answered you regarding Irgun? They where disbanded in 1948 with the sinking of the Altelena by Haggana forces.

UN 181 was killed by the Arabs since they rejected the plan and attacked Israel in the onset of Israeli independence. Care to share more information on the matter.

JudahMaccabbi, I already did.

In fact, if you go to the last page. I mentioned an operation by Irgun 5 days before the first war started. One which involved them attacking and taking over Arab holdings in Jerusalum.

And what does any of this to do with the topic? Let's stay on it please.

Originally posted by intrepid
And what does any of this to do with the topic? Let's stay on it please.

Then surely, stop them from claiming the Arabs start every conflict then? I am open to source information, directly from Prof. Yehuda Lapidot [Company Commander of Irgun.] Where he states they invaded Arabic Areas [set down through the UN 181] and were going to fight any force in Jerusalum [including the U.N.] and did this on May the 14th.

I'd not have to take this off of topic, IF they'd not make claim after claim about it being the Arabs [Muslims] fault as per-normal.

7 Israeli civilians were killed by Hezbullah rockets today (so far).
Where is the international outcry? These were not from areas were artillery was fired! This is not from areas where rockets were fired.

WHERE IS THE INTERNATIONAL OUTCRY!!!!

Source

Then start another thread and let this topic continue.

Originally posted by grover
I find it absolutely appalling that some of you justify or write off civilian deaths by claiming that they were associated with hezbollah...they were civilians you morons, non combatants stuck in a bad situition. Your kill them all approach is obscene. And you have the fricking nerve to take ME to task when rightly or wrongly I take a moral stance that the whole bloody thing is wrong. Idiots!!!

Ah, insults and name calling - the "thinking person's" response.

I'll ask you to think and consider this in response. hezbollah dresses in civilian clothes - as we've all seen in recent photos - and does their military operations out of civilian areas. Now, when some of them are inevitably killed or wounded, is it even possible for you to consider that they then call themselves civilians and scream to high heaven about the Israeli "atrocities" against civilians?

Next question for you to consider. Given hezbollah's modus operandi stated above, exactly how would an opposing force be able to decide who was a fighter and who was an "innocent civilian"? I'm sure that is hezbollah's reason for doing what they are doing.

centurion1211 and as I have already pointed out.

Israel claimed only 450 people killed were Hez members. 900 people have been reported as killed, so even if we use their nunbers that's only 50/50. Now, if we include the new report that's only 37[military] and 31 [civilians] in Israel killed.

However, why would Israel not claim they've killed mostly Hez members? Your theory, has to be applied both ways. Israel will say they've killed more Hez members and Hez will claim they've killed only civilians.

However, only Israeli media has given this 450 figure so far. As I sourced, Russian, British and many others have given the 900 civilian figure.

Odium give it time,

Israel has a tendency to hold on to the dead bodies identify them and bury them since Arabs do not tend to return IDF bodies. With time the truth will come out.

I think we will also find out that the Lebanese civilians dead are much smaller than reported. Arabs have a tendency to inflate these numbers like they did in dir yassin and the Jenin 'massacre'.

I assume that much of the dead civilians are actually Hezbullah fighters.

Originally posted by Odium
centurion1211 and as I have already pointed out.

Israel claimed only 450 people killed were Hez members. 900 people have been reported as killed, so even if we use their nunbers that's only 50/50. Now, if we include the new report that's only 37[military] and 31 [civilians] in Israel killed.

However, why would Israel not claim they've killed mostly Hez members? Your theory, has to be applied both ways. Israel will say they've killed more Hez members and Hez will claim they've killed only civilians.

However, only Israeli media has given this 450 figure so far. As I sourced, Russian, British and many others have given the 900 civilian figure.

Well, as others have pointed out, Israeli civilians tend to evacuate war zones leaving fewer targets for hezbollah to kill. On the other hand, hezbollah prevents civilians from leaving so as to use them as shields and cannon fodder and allow them to claim more atrocities.

There's the main reason for the difference in casualty numbers.

Now which side is more barbaric??????

[edit on 8/3/2006 by centurion1211]

Originally posted by JudahMaccabbi
Israel has a tendency to hold on to the dead bodies identify them and bury them since Arabs do not tend to return IDF bodies. With time the truth will come out.

One slight problem. Israel isn't cleaning up this mess, the U.N. and Leb are.

I think we will also find out that the Lebanese civilians dead are much smaller than reported. Arabs have a tendency to inflate these numbers like they did in dir yassin and the Jenin 'massacre'.

Longer the war goes on, the more people will end up dying.

I assume that much of the dead civilians are actually Hezbullah fighters.

I seriously doubt they have many more than a few thousand? Even at the largest can't be more than 10,000. 3000 injured and 900 killed? I seriously doubt though they have taken nearly half already.

Originally posted by centurion1211
Now which side is more barbaric??????

Think about it.

Barbaric? If Israel knows about this tactic, then they are very barbaric. They know they'll kill civilians and get one or two Hez fighters. That's barbaric.

Source: encarta.msn.com...
Definition:

1. cruel: cruel or extremely brutal

2. uncivilized: uncivilized or unsophisticated when compared to highly developed civilizations ( sometimes considered offensive )

Yes, by definition Israel is being extremely brutal with its action.