Bosnian Pyramid Update

Here's another link, if you can look at one more substantive piece to my argument, that supports why this research needs to be taken over by experts - and if you believe you can recommend some, please do - or have the current researcher there allowed to continue under strict supervision.

June 4, 2007 - report

Please use your expert skills in reading the language, and tell me what you know from this report.

If you can not read it (and coincidentally, I can not either), then tell me how you can be certain that you know so very much about his work.

More food for thought...

Although I would not place Osmanagic and Copernicus in the same breath consider this:

What did the astronomer have to say or lie about to the Church in order to keep his research going? If he didn't lie, would we have the same understanding of the planets (and the stars) that we have today?

What about Keppler? DaVinci? Just look back in time to when any number of now heralded scientists were under the oppressive rule of the Church, and ask yourself if you wouldn't mislead them so that you may continue to pursue a line of research you knew was promising.

Again, to pre-empt your derision: I'm not sure Osmanagic is even remotely similar to those scientists I mentioned...but who could have predicted in the time of Copernicus that his findings would become the basis for great thought.

Christenseven, sorry but the pyramids do not appear to have anything to do with the theory that they reflect Orion. The arrangement on the ground doesn't match the arrangement in sky.

Osmie is a fraud, delusional or a combination of both. Copernius and Kepter had actual evidence, mathematically and observation notes that could be duplicated by anyone with the skill and a telescope. Osmie is a fraud. I think a little jail time would be good but I suspect that being delusional and stupid are not criminal offensives - however, we'll see.

The report is not in a language I cannot read.

Digging up naturally occuring stones is not of much value, there are medieval ruins there but I wouldn't think that money will be spent to recover them

I would suspect that the Bosnian government will continue the site as a tourist trap for new age believers-much to the embarrassment of the Bosnian people.

The recurring theme of every disbeliever is this: shame, fraud and embarrassment.

My continued belief is this: those who throw words of shame are running from the possibility of being shamed themselves should the real value of this dig be revealed.

Oh my a pseudo-pyschartist, LOL

Nope, if there was REAL evidence of a pyramid I would be very happy. As would all archaeologists, scientists and logical thinkers.

As all the evidence provided so far is fake or wrongly identified, there is no reason to suppose it is a pyramid.

So you think there is a pyramid there based on belief and wishful thinking? Sorry some of us actually require evidence before committing to an idea.

I'll go with the evidence every time.

Osmie is a fraud, liar, an embarrassment to Bosnia and its people but you seem to believe in his idea.

Originally posted by newtron25
So, again, how can you deny that what he has done so far negates the call to further investigate was he has found?

there's definitely call for further investigation...........a criminal investigation into his fraud

Originally posted by Hanslune
Oh my a pseudo-pyschartist, LOL

Nope, if there was REAL evidence of a pyramid I would be very happy. As would all archaeologists, scientists and logical thinkers.

As all the evidence provided so far is fake or wrongly identified, there is no reason to suppose it is a pyramid.

So you think there is a pyramid there based on belief and wishful thinking? Sorry some of us actually require evidence before committing to an idea.

I'll go with the evidence every time.

Osmie is a fraud, liar, an embarrassment to Bosnia and its people but you seem to believe in his idea.

Oh my ear-waxed filled vigilant troll!!! I have said repeatedly that I don't believe this to be a pyramid.

What I do believe this to be is a worth while, continued research effort into what it truly is. If I read another post that cavalierly throws out the notion, "Oh, it's probably just some kinda medieval burial ground or something." as if you'd just found a penny on the ground while waiting for the bus. A medieval burial ground?? Of this size?? With tunnels? With large obviously carved stones? THIS ISN'T IMPORTANT ENOUGH FOR YOU???????

And as for evidence, there is evidence there. What that evidence constitutes is a matter for people other than any of us posting here to determine. All I am asking is that someone put an end to the mania that is going on here. So...the...heck....what...if this is not a pyramid? Get over the fact that you have made your point, now answer this next question....what have we found if not a pyramid?

What is it? What archaeological value does it hold if it is NOT a pyramid? Your close-minded approach to this problem is blinding in its sophomoric simplicity, now that we are throwing personal barbs at each other.

If only your alacrity towards denouncing how idiotic other people's posts are could be re-focused toward seeing what is actually in front of you, you'd be able to see what an opportunity that Dr. Osmanagic has given us all - even if it has been by way of a crock of less-than-sound theoretical thinking.

Read my posts again. I agree with you on the merits of this researcher and exactly he has promised in advance of actually finding anything. I believe you and Marduk and Father Luke Duke when you say that Dr. O is not offering true scientific method here.

What I have been imploring all of you, however, is to admit that if it isn't a pyramid, come clean with the fact that at this point....it might still be a stunning find. Again, admit that if it isn't a pyramid, it's important.

If only your johnny-one-note approach could offer a reasonable response to this supposition, then I might not be so reactive in my posts to what you have been saying.

The only thing pseudo on this thread are the trolls who insist that if its not a pyramid, it must be crap. Remind me to have t-shirts and bumper stickers made up with that..."If's its not Pyramid, it's crap!"

Oh, I can see the profits now!

Allow me also to further the discussion with a link that will awaken people on either side of the debate:

The Smear Campaigns of Osmanagich

It can be seen here by my posting that I really am convinced that Dr. O's research has been called into question....

And yet, please, anyone...is this not a huge amount of data merely to label as rubbish and consequently throw away with the process?

To me that is probably more criminal than anything the man did in the first place to convince people we needed to start digging here.

Look carefully at this link. Although it is a site dedicated to discrediting and bringing the truth about Osmanagich to light, it also shows that the world's top researchers were summonsed to review what he had. In several cases, their reports were inconclusive and, I quote:

"In order that he and Colette understand the history of Bosnia & Herzegovina, we arrangedfor them to visit the pyramids of the Sun and Moon, the tunnel complex beneath the Bosnian Valley of the Pyramids, recent discoveries in Gornja Vratnica and Bandol near Travnik, Daorson in Herzegovina and stone spheres in Zavidovici. It is interesting that even regarding the stone spheres he did not say that they are man-made but, rather, that there is no geological explanation for them. Apparently, this is the way a geologist thinks.

We have not yet received the preliminary or final report that he promised to prepare after he returned to Boston."

This either means Schoch was being cruelly indifferent or truly stymied by what he saw.

In either event, there is quite a bit of unresolved pieces of information on this site even it can be clearly classified as "non-pyramid."

Remember: Schoch has the greatest amount of ego and ultimately honorarium to lose should this project become linked in any way to his life-time achievement and body of study involving the Sphinx and Egyptian archaeology. If a pyramid is found outside of Egypt, his star begins to set that much faster in the science world.

[edit on 17-6-2007 by newtron25]

Originally posted by newtron25
And as for evidence, there is evidence there. What that evidence constitutes is a matter for people other than any of us posting here to determine.

That is what worries me.

If those people working there are only looking for evidences that prove that they are right they risk destroying other evidences, either maliciously or just by negligence.

That fact that some people may be creating their own evidences does not help either.

Dr. Osmanagich - The Embarassment of Everyone?

Interesting for anyone here thinking he is the laughing stock, to think that there are now members of the church (a good sign that a scientist has the backing to continue research) endorse the work in Visoko. Here is the letter:

"Several days ago, I received pleasant news: the report about the Archaeological Park: Bosnian Pyramid of the Sun Foundation and its research in 2006. I also received the certificate and the Foundation’s membership card, two maps which show the pyramids, as well as the DVD, which I watched and told other people about this. With this letter I am confirming that I have received this and would like to thank you for that.

I am fully supporting your research work, because it is very interesting. You have the hypothesis, which has to be proven by the research.



I wish you every success in your work and every scientific research let be a joy for this country, B&H.


Sincere regards and I am wishing you every success,

Archbishop, Vinko Pljuic

Archepiscopus Vrhbosnensis"

The letter was dated April, 11, 2007.

If you are interested in finding out who the cardinal is, here is a link to his biography. Remember, you may be disappointed: he's not very creditable person.

Cardinal Vinko Puljic

Originally posted by newtron25
The letter was dated April, 11, 2007.

And where did you found that letter, or are getting also the habit of not posting the links to support your posts?

Originally posted by ArMaP

Originally posted by newtron25
The letter was dated April, 11, 2007.

And where did you found that letter, or are getting also the habit of not posting the links to support your posts?

Bosn ian Pyramid.Net

The letter is real. Don't insult everyone with a lame attempt to discredit the website.

However, if you feel so inclined, why don't you email the cardinal yourself. I'm sure that this high ranking church official would indeed like to know if anyone has been using his name in an effort to lie about support for research.

What other habits would you be referring to, hmmm?

[edit on 17-6-2007 by newtron25]

[edit on 17-6-2007 by newtron25]

New Potential Archeaological Site - Visoko Valley


Here is possibly more supporting evidence to include in any arguments in favor of a continued dig at Visoko:

Bosnian-Pyramid.com: New Potential Site

This is preliminary, however, there is still the possibility that we can all just look at it and say, "Meh. Rocks. Big square blocks. This is interesting, but where are the pyramids...."

lol still clutching at straws
how is a letter from a "high ranking church official" even relevant
try posting a letter from a highly trained expert instead
or better still
go read the ones already posted
clearly you feel some need to subscribe to pseudohistory
dealing with reality getting you down ?

Interview with a European Scientist - Credible?

I think this is more illuminating than the "straws", no?

An Interview with Archaeologist Doc. dr. Predrag Novaković
Assistant Professor, Department of Archaeology, Faculty of Arts, Ljubljana
and Secretary of EAA (European Association Of Archaeologists)


M: You said you had only spent 30 minutes in Visoko. Why didn't you spend some more time there?
N: Yes, 30 minutes is enough for everyone to see the things that absolutely have nothing to do with construction in the early age, it's enough time to see it, and some things don't even need to be seen because from the texts you can see how absurd it is.

M: Professor Novakovic, I was at the Pyramid of the Moon or Pljesevica Hill if you like, and I was at the plateau and up there it really looks like things have been man-made. How do you explain that?
N: I haven't been there and I haven't seen what it is, but on Visocica I have seen an obvious natural phenomenon when nature forms the layers that really look like…

M: So, professor Novakovic, all of that is a natural formation?
N: What I have seen on Visocica is.

M: If everything is natural, why did you make petitions?
N: Because the excavations are made there and a ritual history is promoted, which doesn't have anything to do with common sense.

M: But that's not illegal.
N: I don't know about the illegal, but those excavations have to be an end-result of permits that had to be issued by an Institute for Protection of the Monuments of some culture or some other…

M: When you talk about monuments of some culture, you mean the Old City?
N: No, I'm talking about permits they need to have for the excavations…

M: Yes, but what are they destroying there?
N: They are destroying…

M: But what?
N: What they have dug out, they only made one assessment…

M: They publish everything on their website.
N: Yes, but we haven't seen any findings or objects.

M: Yes, but how do they find them when people sign the petitions?
N: Listen, they have excavated so much and if it really was a pyramid, they should've found hundreds and thousands of artifacts, which proves how much that whole thing is…

M: Maybe they will find them in the tunnels.
N: Look, so far we have nothing, and they have excavated so much that they should've found something, even from the later age… After all, Bosnia is [archaeologically] so rich and it is absolutely absurd that no artifacts have been found.

M: Prof. Novakovic, please explain how someone can ask for the artifacts and analysis when they want the excavations to be stopped.
N: So far they have excavated so much, too much even…

M: But excavations were banned long before they started.
N: That's because neither the technical nor the scientific references of the researches, nor the methodical system have been presented as they normally are in all other states.

M: But we have professors, doctors, professors from Egypt who did the analyses.
N: That professor from Egypt is not an Egyptologist; he's nothing but a geologist.

M: I have met Professor Muhammad Ibrahim Ali…
N: Yes, but the major Egyptologist has stated that all of that is nonsense.

M: That was a lie, though. Mr. Osmanagic has been to Egypt two or three weeks ago; you're talking about Mr. Hawass and he has regaled Mr. Osmanagic, and has nothing against the project and said that it was all okay.
N: The person who is the greatest expert for the pyramids in Egypt has said that all of that is nonsense and I have no reason not to believe that.

M: But why would the same man be a host to Mr. Osmanagic? You have read some false news.
N: I doubt they were false.

M: I don't.
N: The well-known professor has written…

M: Let's say it's true what you have just said. How do you explain Muhammad Ibrahim Ali; I have been there and met him. What he looked at and what he saw, he said it was man-made, not naturally but man-made.
N: Listen, you can quote whomever you like…

M: But he was sent by Mr. Hawass.
N: Things simply cannot be the way they have been first presented. More and more money is wasted for a project…

M: You also said that Mr. Osmanagic is wasting public funds, but do you know that the State invests less than 10% in this project?
N: Even if it's 1%, it's too much.

M: Why, if it's a matter of archaeology?
N: Because the State should invest money for other, more real, archaeological projects.

M: Such as?
N: I don't know; there are so many archaeological things to be done.

M: Such as?
N: Like de-mining archaeological locations.

M: Which ones?
N: Like Mile in Visoko, but there is a lot of such monuments.

M: When you mention the monuments, I want to know which ones you mean.
N: What do you mean which ones?

M: You said that Foundation wastes a lot of money.
N: That's right. Those are the facts.

M: What should it spend on, then?
N: Not the Foundation, but the State. The State should organize a unique system of protecting the cultural monuments.

M: Which ones? Do you know that the Old City was neglected?
N: This is a reason enough to form a better system. I'm not saying that the old system was good, but that it needs to be modernized and improved, which requires a monetary fund. There is an archaeological map of Bosnia and Herzegovina within seven large books where you can find a thousand of locations…

M: So you Prof. Novakovic think that those are nothing but hills in Visoko.
N: Archaeological locations could exist there, but they have nothing to do with the pyramids.

M: If they are nothing but hills, why did you sign the petitions?
N: Because excavations are made without an expert supervision, while large amounts of money are wasted.

M: They have Dr. Ramovic who is a geologist, and Enver Buza and other experts; Construction Institute from Tuzla has confirmed…
N: They need to have the permits.

M: They do have them.
N: Maybe.

M: Not maybe, they do.
N: It's just that the entire system of monument's protection in Bosnia is not set properly so it can't function properly either. In such cases occur excavations like those at Visocica.

M: So you think that those excavations are not okay. Right, onto the next question. How do you explain the tunnels?
N: Those tunnels could have been constructed in various periods of time.

M: Professor Novakovic, there are tunnel junctions too.
N: When were they made? Tell me.

M: That's what I'm asking you. You're the archaeologist.
N: You said you were there.

M: I said that because I was there.
N: So was I but I'd like to say…

M: Alright, I apologize.
N: I don't know anything about those tunnels.

M: So you can't give me an explanation.
N: I've never even tried to give an explanation as I have no opinion of it at all.

Interview Continued.....Text

M: How do you explain stone spheres?
N: I've never tried to explain those either.

M: Are you familiar with their existence?
N: Those stone spheres, no, I don't know anything about them.

M: You're an archaeologist and you've never heard of them?
N: I have, but I have no outlook on them. I'm waiting for an expert…

M: There are stone spheres in Bosnia and Herzegovina.
N: I'm going to have to end this interview soon.

M: It's not a problem, professor, but I want to hear your explanation on the stone spheres.
N: Look, I have no opinion on them.

M: If you have no explanation, if you know nothing about the tunnels, if you know nothing about the Pyramid of the Moon, how could've you signed the petitions?
N: Simply, what I have seen myself and what I heard from Osmanagic and others…

M: Meaning, based on what you've heard and what was written, and not on the assessments you made; you told me you spent 30 minutes there…
N: Absolutely, what I have seen is more than enough…

M: But you said that it takes at least 5 hours to go between Gornje Vratnice, Pljesevica, Visocica to see everything, but you said you were there for only 30 minutes.
N: Look, some things only need 5 minutes…

M: Why five?
N: For what I'd seen, it only takes 5 minutes.

M: What have you seen?
N: I saw geological layer

~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sounds abnormally dismissive to me. In fact, if anyone is being evasive, it is the Secretary of the European Association Of Archaeologists. Its almost as if he is using his office to exude an air of indifference....

But, meh, could be just crazy ole me.


Here's the link in case anyone wants to make sure I'm not "making this all up".....

Interview with Predrag Novaković - Secretary EAA
bosnian-pyramid.com...

Is this "grasping at straws?"

Originally posted by Marduk
lol still clutching at straws
how is a letter from a "high ranking church official" even relevant
try posting a letter from a highly trained expert instead
or better still
go read the ones already posted
clearly you feel some need to subscribe to pseudohistory
dealing with reality getting you down ?

Reality is heavy. Better be sure you're not underneath it when it comes down.

Oh well....

And as for this "pseudo" label...credentials please, Marduk.

I have none. And you?

Here's one for Marduk and Others...

On Preventing Psuedoarchaeology

Powerful arguments here, but it still doesn't answer what is at Visoko Hill.

is this a new discovery for you Newtron
haven't you been following this for the last two years like some of us

you happily post a letter from an Cardinal as if its some kind of proof and then post a letter from someone qualified in which he states that its all nonsense

just what is your program here ?
youre not making much logical sense
also you need to realise that repeatedly posting in the same thread just makes you look like a troll


now youre asking for a definition on pseudo
you don't need to have quailifications or non qualification to be labelled pseudo
you just have to accept whatever some conman tells you without looking at all the facts
cherry picking which evidence to display and which to hide earmarks all pseudo claims

what about the Tusla geology team hired by Osmaganic to find evidence of it being man made who reported back that it was entirely natural

why havent you posted their report ?
lol

You're not posting anything Marduk. You're just sitting on your debunk and telling everyone else to look it up.

Again, you have no credentials, neither do I, and frankly, you ability to completely (as in 100% beyond a shadow of a doubt) claim the efforts in Visoko as complete b*****t is just that.

You prove nothing but yet claim everything.

You make stances on how the world is laughing at Osmanagic, and yet you can't really tell me or anyone if there is any reason to continue research there, even if its for something other than a pyramid.

I have asked, and asked, and asked....you ignore the question.

It's obvious, uber-obvious, that you can't answer that question. Just like EAA geologist and association secretary couldn't answer it. If you're a geologist, then you're not really offering anything for us all to latch onto, Marduk. If you're an archaeologist, then you are only really referring to what others have said. You haven't said what your credentials are. Mine are just that I see what could be an effort, for even greater reasons than what we have seen so far, to get out of that part of the world. Politics, mineral rights, water rights...I don't know, but something seems to be not fully honest in its opposition to his dig.

What my posts are bringing up now, yes after 2 years of following this, is there is a pattern here. Not just an apparent pattern, a superficial pattern of deception by Dr. O. But there may be another pattern in all of this:

Dr. Osmanagich has been withholding the truth or inflating it because the opposition to his research was foreseen, expected and he saw it coming from a mile away.

From scientists wishing desperately to hold onto their crusty dissertations, theories and dogma about how the world should be. You're just another flat worlder, Marduk. I'm just offering these bits of information because this issue is not dead yet about the pyramid.

I want it to be dead, though, so we can get on with what is on that hill. You seem to not want anything but to throw rotten eggs at passing cars.