ATS: Iranian President Attempting to Start Armaggedon?

Snafu, you just don't know when to admit you're wrong, this is my last comment regarding this subject towards you. Try to put on your logic cap and reread our series of discussions, you're letting your emotion blind you.

[edit on 23-1-2006 by Jamuhn]

Originally posted by Jamuhn
Snafu, you just don't know when to admit you're wrong,

really? then why dont you tell me where i'm wrong and back it up with references. for all your cries of "provide references", and then your condescending remarks after i provided them, you have only done so in regards to the ayatollah comments. i have no problem with being proven wrong. in fact, should you go through all the threads in which i have posted, you will find several times in which i have admitted fault. there is always the possiblity that i am wrong here as well. but so far, all you have done is attack my assertations with no proof to back up your own claims.

this is my last comment regarding this subject towards you.

that is your perogative. personally, i would prefer a real debate, as you actually do seem to have some information to offer on the subject. the problem is that you dont know how to offer that info and debate the subject without implying that everyone else on the thread has no idea what they are talking about.

Try to put on your logic cap and reread our series of discussions, you're letting your emotion blind you.

the pot calling the kettle black.

Alright, this is the News Network, discuss the topic, not each other.

Thought I'd post a few references for this discussion, from Arab sources in case some suspected these as coming from western propaganda sites:

www.aljazeera.com...
1/2/2006
The Iranian President also said that the crimes committed by Israel now against the Palestinians were the same as those committed by the Nazis in the SECOND WORLD WAR. “One question to be clarified by the West is what crimes did they commit in those days (Second World War) that the Zionists are not doing today,"

...

Larijani also warned of a "crushing" response if its nuclear sites were attacked by the United States or Israel. "If there is any truth in such talks, Israel will suffer greatly. It's a very small country within our range," he said.

www.aljazeera.com...
1/21/2006
Speaking to HAMAS leaders in Damascus, the new Iranian President MAHMOUD AHMADINEJAD said on Friday that the Middle East conflict has become “the locus of the final war” between Muslims and the West, Iran’s official news agency, IRNA, reported.
...
On the second day of his two-day visit to Syria, NEJAD told HAMAS leaders, “Today, victory in Palestine has become a matter of life and death for the Islamic world and for Global Arrogance (the West),”urging the Palestinians to reject the so-called Israel’s WITHDRAWAL FROM GAZA STRIP.
...
“If the occupiers stay on even one inch of Palestinian soil, the goal of Palestine will not be realised”, Ahmadinejad told HAMAS leaders, who included Khalid Mash’al, the head of the group’s political bureau.

www.iranian.ws...
Nov 17, 2005
Reuters
"Our revolution's main mission is to pave the way for the reappearance of the 12th Imam, the Mahdi," Ahmadinejad said in the speech to Friday Prayers leaders from across the country."
...
But what really has tongues wagging is the possibility that Ahmadinejad's belief in the 12th Imam's return may be linked to the supposed growing influence of a secretive society devoted to the Mahdi which was banned in the early 1980s.

Founded in 1953 and used by the Shah of Iran to try to eradicate followers of the Bahai faith, the Hojjatieh Society is governed by the conviction that the 12th Imam's return will be hastened by the creation of chaos on earth.

IMHO - It's not possible for the U.S. to invade Iran, only with U.N. backing can the U.S. provide support for an Israeli strike against the specific facilities in question. China and Russia are allies of Iran, China's national strategic interests (Oil) would conflict with those of the U.S.. China would not allow a competing world power (U.S.) to have politicial or military control over; Saudi Arabia, Iraq, and Iran (basically the entire middle east).

Plus there's the whole rebuilding thing, the 'where's the exit plan?' challenge heard during the Iraq war.

President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad seems to be playing from the Kim Jong-iL playbook in that it's best to act crazy to keep us guessing from the real plan. Besides he's the Ayatollah's puppet boy and wields no real power.

I doubt the Iranian leaders are suicidal. They want nuclear weapons to prevent an invasion and promote an alternate oil market that doesn't pay hommage to the petrodollar. What happened to Saddam when he switched to the euro is firmly in their minds, and the corporate oil wolves are knocking on their door.

Ahmadinejad is crazy like a fox, but not suicidal....

Originally posted by Regenmacher
Ahmadinejad is crazy like a fox, but not suicidal....

when you believe what youre doing will make you a hero in the afterlife, you dont care about death. they are managing to convince thousands of young men and women to become suicide bombers using this concept, why cant a leader be convinced of the same?

Tehran plans nuclear weapon test by March

Tehran is planning a nuclear weapons test before the Iranian New Year on March 20, 2006 says a group opposed to the regime in Tehran.

this story was released by The Foundation for Democracy, an organization opposed to the current regime in iran, so i take what they are saying with a grain of salt. i dont see how iran could have nuclear capability so quickly without purchasing it from other countries. however, if it proves to be true, coupled with the iranian presidents alleged beliefs, this test could ignite wwIII.

Iran testing nukes wouldn't directly start WWIII, but if China as an ally of Iran views a US assault on Iran (or control of the middle east oil) as a conflict of national strategic interests.

In the geist of the forum, here's some food for thought:

Iran topics:
www.exodus2006.com...
"Iran will be destroyed" "hand of bush" "mourning in the end"

www.exodus2006.com...
"Iran will be destroyed" "fire by God"

www.exodus2006.com...
"Iran will be destroyed" "by the hand of Israel"

www.exodus2006.com...
"The Iran's treachery against the people of god is an impediment. A cold Truth." "From God, March 5, 2006."

China:
www.exodus2006.com...
(California, Year 765/Year 765 (2006), atomic, the fleet shall set the city on fire, HN-3 (submarine), Kilo-1 (submarine), Chinese

exodus2006.com...
Analysis of above

nothing against bible codes, but i would prefer to keep this topic as close to the real world as i can. if we go off on that tangent, we'll end up with fights about the bible code, instead of conversation about the iranian presidents sanity. thanks for the info though.

a little more moderate article about Ahmadinejad from newsweek:

msnbc.com

Eerie stories about Ahmadinejad's mystical obsessions have been drifting out of Tehran of late, specifically his devotion to the so-called 12th imam—the Shiite messiah, better known as the Mahdi, who's supposed to return and lead an apocalyptic revolution of the oppressed over vague forces of injustice.

By some accounts, the new president's first deputy, Parvis Davoudi, recently asked cabinet members during a formal meeting to pledge their allegiance to the Mahdi in a signed letter. And when Ahmadinejad was Tehran's mayor, he reportedly refurbished a major boulevard on grounds that the Mahdi was to travel along it upon his return.

Originally posted by snafu7700
when you believe what youre doing will make you a hero in the afterlife, you dont care about death. they are managing to convince thousands of young men and women to become suicide bombers using this concept, why cant a leader be convinced of the same?

Same goes here when the Bush administration convinces 1000's of young men and women soldiers to go to Iraq, inhale depeleted uranium, become sterile, dead or lame... and it's all to win one for the corporation.

Iran like any people still mourn loss and fear death. Only the dumb and desperate are fooled to blow themselves up. Only the dumb and paranoid are fooled to believe governments are suicidal and would end their complete existance. Reminds me of all the bullcrap propaganda during the cold war and the masses thinking duck and cover was a good drill. Russia never did launch cause they love their children, but plenty of war profiteers got rich making missiles only to watch them rust away while they poor starved though.

Last I checked all the Ayatollahs reach a ripe old age, since matyrdom is a scam put on the ignorant. Maybe it should be titled as: How fanatical governments solve overpopulation and get rid of the stupid and poor to enrich their own interests in power.

Bush commits US to defence of Israel in face of Iran threat

"Secondly, I'm concerned about a nontransparent society's desire to develop a nuclear weapon. The world cannot be put in a position where we can be blackmailed by a nuclear weapon. I believe it is very important for the Iranian government to hear loud and clear from not only the United States, but also from other nations around the world." -George W. Bush

Giving In to Nuclear Blackmail Bill Clinton

Repeat: President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is playing from the Kim Jong-iL playbook in that it's best to act crazy to keep us guessing from the real plan.

Real Plan: ATS: Iran's Real WMD-The Oil Bourse

It's same old fear ridden propaganda recycled and repackaged. What's truelly amazing is how many can be fooled repeatedly with the same old lines of bs.

“You can fool some of the people all the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on.” George W. Bush

[edit on 25-1-2006 by Regenmacher]

Originally posted by Regenmacher

Only the dumb and desperate are fooled to blow themsleves up. Only the dumb and paranoid are fooled to believe governments are suicidal.

Last I checked all the ayatollahs reach a ripe old age....matyrdom is a scam put on the ignorant. Maybe it should be titled as: how fanatical governments solve overpopulation and get rid of the stupid and poor to enrich their own interests in power.

while i understand where you coming from, i think your theory is just a tad bit flawed. if only the ignorant can be convinced to commit suicide bombings, how do you explain people like atta, who was highly intelligent? at least four of the 9/11 hijackers not only had college degrees and were working towards masters degrees, but were able to become qualified commercial pilots....no easy task for a "stupid, poor, and ignorant" person. just because someone is a true believer doesnt make them an idiot.....and that is what is so scary about Ahmadinejad. read the man's bio. he is a college graduate and a former military officer. by all accounts, a brilliant strategen during the iraq-iran war. do you really believe he is an idiot? he is a well educated true believer who allegedly belongs to a small group of radicals that think they can bring the messiah back sooner by their actions on earth. i think he knows exactly what he is doing....and anyone who believes he is ignorant is in for a rude awakining IHMO.

Originally posted by snafu7700
while i understand where you coming from, i think your theory is just a tad bit flawed. if only the ignorant can be convinced to commit suicide bombings, how do you explain people like atta, who was highly intelligent?.........

Atta was a fool and only a fool would kill themself to enrich another. The one at the top doesn't harbor the same foolish theory or they wouldn't be running the pawns around. Osama, Ahmadinejad, Al Sadr or al-Zawahiri with a bomb strapped on is something you will never see.

Ahmadinejad is intentionally acting crazy like Jong to make the general public bendover to fear...it's a facade and your nibbling on it as if it had merit. I'd worry more about myself, if I believed Ahmadinejad at face value and think he's suicidal.

Best read the real plan in detail and reread my prior post. Who said Ahmadinejad was stupid? Hence the term crazy like a fox...





[edit on 25-1-2006 by Regenmacher]

Originally posted by Regenmacher
Atta was a fool and only a fool would kill themself to enrich another.

one man's fool is another man's martyr. however, your original statements were a little different:

originally posted by regenmacher
Only the dumb and desperate are fooled to blow themsleves up...how fanatical governments solve overpopulation and get rid of the stupid and poor to enrich their own interests in power.

there is a huge difference between a fool and a dumb, desperate, stupid, poor person.

fanatacism does not only include the dumb, desperate, stupid, and poor. was hitler an idiot? were the thousands of nazis that followed him fanatically idiots? countries have followed suicidal leaders fanatically in the past and it can happen again.

The one at the top doesn't harbor the same foolish theory or they wouldn't be running the pawns around. Osama, Ahmadinejad, Al Sadr or al-Zawahiri with a bomb strapped on is something you will never see.

you dont see them committing suicide attacks because they know the cause would be lost without their leadership. if it came down do it, i have no doubt that some of the above mentioned leaders would not hesitate to commit a suicide attack. in fact, (and i cant find the quote, but i have seen it many times) bin ladin has said that this is the way he would like to leave this world. but he wants it to be spectacular.

Ahmadinejad is intentionally acting crazy like Jong to make the general public bendover to fear...it's a facade and your nibbling on it as if it had merit.

there is always the possibility that youre right and i'm wrong. but for the moment, with everything i have read on the man i am going to stick to my belief that he's a true believer and he's not playacting.

Only the dumb and paranoid are fooled to believe governments are suicidal....

I'd worry more about myself, if I believed Ahmadinejad at face value and think he's suicidal.

no reason to make it personal. just debate the topic please.

Best read the real plan in detail and reread my prior post. Who said Ahmadinejad was stupid? Hence the term crazy like a fox...

i did read it, and while you make a good argument, i still fundamentally disagree for the reasons i've pointed out above.

Originally posted by snafu7700

Originally posted by Jamuhn

I've seen no indication that the Iranian President is trying to bring about the apocalypse of the world. You could say the same thing about a Christian president trying to bring about Christ's return.

This is just propaganda and rectal journalism operating on a "rumor."

[edit on 20-1-2006 by Jamuhn]

once again, fundamental christians do not believe that they can expedite the return of the messiah. these guys do, and are trying to acquire nuclear weapons. huge difference there.

How do you know other peoples beliefs with such certainty, you obviously know nothing about Islam judged by most your earlier posts thinking, Shia islam isnt a minority cult there are millions of them. How can you be so sure what Bush believes? Have you sat down and talked with bush about his beliefs? Next time if you want to try looking smart at least google the thing you are talking about? -mod edit-

Iran is being attacked because it is stopping oil trade in $$, which could start other oil producers/traders to also start using the euro which would wipe out the US economy.

Mod edit:

BE NICE.

[edit on 3-2-2006 by parrhesia]

Originally posted by HiddenReality

How do you know other peoples beliefs with such certainty,

i have posted a helluva lot of sources for my theories. if you dont believe them that's your perogative.

you obviously know nothing about Islam judged by most your earlier posts thinking, Shia islam isnt a minority cult there are millions of them.

you dont say? did you actually read all the posts? evidently not. i specifically stated that iran is a shia based theocracy, and the "cult" in questions is the Hojjatieh sect, not all of shia islam.

How can you be so sure what Bush believes? Have you sat down and talked with bush about his beliefs?

his beliefs are a matter of record. there is no christian sect that believes in the ability to bring christ back sooner.

Next time if you want to try looking smart at least google the thing you are talking about?

i dont mind being berated. i dont mind being corrected if i am wrong. but i do mind when someone who obviously hasnt even read all the material posted (with sources from google and elswhere i might add) uses words such as the following simply because he doesnt have the ability to debate the subject at hand without inflammatory remarks:

Originally posted by HiddenReality
Jackass.

if you want a debate, bring it on. but at least have the courtesy to read the material in question before attacking, and please try to refain from insulting remarks like the one above.

Originally posted by snafu7700i specifically stated that iran is a shia based theocracy, and the "cult" in questions is the Hojjatieh sect, not all of shia islam.

The Iranian president has never been confirmed to be part of this group.

his beliefs are a matter of record. there is no christian sect that believes in the ability to bring christ back sooner.

Yes, there are...

Millennial sects have typically believed that the transition from the present age to the millennium would be anything but smooth, with the Antichrist having to be defeated and Jesus' reign on earth having to be established. Millennial theories differ as to whether the battle with the Antichrist will occur before or after the 1000 years. Leaders of some movements have seen it as their responsibility to bring about the expected disastrous wars which would bring an end to the present age. Based on Revelation 20:3, some believe Satan's "Millennial Rebellion" will occur after the 1000 year peace. [4]

en.wikipedia.org...

Also, concerning the Third Temple being built on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, you can find plenty of people on ATS advocating that as well.

Though it remains unbuilt, the notion of and desire for a Third Temple is sacred in Judaism as an unrealized place of worship. Some Christians and Jews believe it will be built in the future. Several organizations have formed in preparation for its building, most of them proposing that its location be the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, a site held sacred by Christians, Jews, and Muslims. A small Jewish family temple built along the lines of the first Jewish temple in which offerings are (as of 2001) regularly made exists in Berks County, Pennsylvania today.

Some Christians - mainly evangelicals - believe that the building of the Third Temple is one of three events that must occur to facilitate the second coming of Christ. The Third Temple would follow the first event: the establishment of Israel in 1948. Once the Third Temple is built on the site of the Second Temple, a red cow or steer must be sacrificed to God inside of it. Not all Christians believe that these conditions or any other conditions are necessary for a return of Christ; many Christians, mainly Roman Catholics and Orthodox, are in fact opposed to a rebuilding of the temple.

en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by Jamuhn

The Iranian president has never been confirmed to be part of this group.

true, it hasnt been confirmed. but as i've shown repeatedly, the evidence is pretty darn strong. why else would his first act in office be to contribute $17 million to the jamkaran mosque? when you have a plethora of circumstantial evidence, it ceases to be circumstantial and becomes evidence.

Yes, there are...

Leaders of some movements have seen it as their responsibility to bring about the expected disastrous wars which would bring an end to the present age.

okay, so ten days after i originally challenged you to find a christian sect that believes they can bring christ back sooner, you finally come up with an obscure reference in wikipedia, a source we all know to be completely un-corruptible. in your own words: "come on, you can do better than that."

Also, concerning the Third Temple being built on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, you can find plenty of people on ATS advocating that as well.

Though it remains unbuilt, the notion of and desire for a Third Temple is sacred in Judaism as an unrealized place of worship. Some Christians and Jews believe it will be built in the future. Several organizations have formed in preparation for its building, most of them proposing that its location be the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, a site held sacred by Christians, Jews, and Muslims. A small Jewish family temple built along the lines of the first Jewish temple in which offerings are (as of 2001) regularly made exists in Berks County, Pennsylvania today.

Some Christians - mainly evangelicals - believe that the building of the Third Temple is one of three events that must occur to facilitate the second coming of Christ. The Third Temple would follow the first event: the establishment of Israel in 1948. Once the Third Temple is built on the site of the Second Temple, a red cow or steer must be sacrificed to God inside of it. Not all Christians believe that these conditions or any other conditions are necessary for a return of Christ; many Christians, mainly Roman Catholics and Orthodox, are in fact opposed to a rebuilding of the temple.

en.wikipedia.org...

in order for the return of christ certain conditions supposedly must be met. this quote is not saying that they want the temple rebuilt to bring the endtimes sooner, but simply that its being rebuilt will be a sign of the end times. now, i'll grant you, there are jewish sects that believe that by rebuilding the temple their messiah will come back sooner, but for fundamental christians, it is simply a checkmark on the list of signs for the tribulation.

on a side note, regardless of our previous somewhat heated discussion jamuhn, you did cause me to delve deeper into areas of this topic i wasnt quite as familiar with. it is an interesting discussion whether we agree or not. i apologize if i was over the top before, and hope we can continue the discussion in a civil manner.

possible nuclear testing in iran? from CBS:

cbsnews.com

Experiments with high explosives, possibly linked to future nuclear weapons tests, were carried out as recently as 2003 in Iran, sources tell CBS News.

International Atomic Energy Agency analysts said they suspect the experiments took place at a huge military complex south of Tehran. Inspectors were permitted only one visit, and saw only part of the site, reports CBS News correspondent Sheila MacVicar.

Despite the lack of access, Sean McCormack, a U.S. State Department spokesman, said, "we are seeing more and more indications" that Iran's enrichment activities have the intended purpose of building a nuclear weapon.

Iran insists its nuclear program is designed for electricity generation. But on Tuesday, the IAEA said that Iran had turned over to it documents and drawings it obtained on the black market that could serve no other purpose than production of an atomic warhead.

Iranian retaliation in the event of UN referral:

the guardian

Mr Mottaki, who was appointed by Iran's hardline president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, in September, said Iranian retaliation would come "simultaneously" with any decision on referral by the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), the UN nuclear watchdog, which meets in emergency session in Vienna today. Iran had not ruled out further steps, including withdrawal from the NPT and the permanent ejection of UN inspectors. "If the Iran dossier is reported to the security council, the additional protocol [which allows UN inspectors to conduct snap inspections] will be the first victim," he said.

Asked whether Iran was prepared to use its leverage in Iraq, where Iran has been accused of aiding attacks on British troops, and elsewhere in the region, Mr Mottaki said Tehran's actions would "correspond" to western political, military and economic pressure

edited for typos.

[edit on 2-2-2006 by snafu7700]