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Originally posted by osram
I can only say that Dock6 was perfectly right:
I can also notice that many freemasons here seem to feel very offended and always keep trying to defend themselves. What is specially annoying are some freemasons who tap on each others shoulders and giving WATS votes to each other and compliments etc.?
Somehow i understand Dock6's point because the need getting confirmed in a group of "like-minded" seems a bit childish for a man.
What I really dislike is the way you treated suze. Bashing @ her in Numbers of 3-4 people.. Even if that gaia-Site might not be the most reliable source. There must be a reason why they post something on their Site.. which can only bring them juridic harm.. in fact? I dont see any financial profit or any other positive uses or goals in that site.
You discriminated suze for being angry and emotional on this topic. But you freemasons on the other hand always try to defend the "name of the group" excessively and are therefore being equally emotional.
What I dont welcome either is a couple being ganged by several lawyers and having to fear for their "existence". This only prooves how the money creates justice. And nothing else.
Isn't it important to pursue those possible child-abuses even if some important names are revealed.. or the name of an organisation might suffer reputation for a certain period of time? After all I'd prefer that goal.. rather than being in a group which has a possible minority of child-abusers. To be honest.
You can't deny that several Excerpts of these religious books can easily be "misunderstood".
As for instance that groupmembers are always masters.. and all the others are worthless slaves. Disgusting work.. really.
And one last question: What if a rather confused leader or member of such a group sees his true will in "Child-Abuse"
Originally posted by Cug
This thread is 16 pages long right now. What did he say?
Originally posted by Dock6
It's been a while, but last time I browsed the Gaiaguys site, I'm sure I read that the OTO were attempting to sue Gaiaguys for publishing information contained within OTO's own introductory blurb ! It made OTO sound hysterical, panicked and non too organised, as well as making them appear ridiculous.
Certainly, there will be a lot of old men in nursing homes wishing they'd used their time on earth a whole lot better than to fraternise with those of similarly bestial and perverted tendencies while they were all young.
Age old wisdom advises that those who play with fire will one day get burned. No group, association, cult or religion possesses the power to safeguard its members indefinitely. Those members, once their usefulness is gone, are abandoned not only by their peers, but also by the lusts which once drove them. Burnt out and friendless, they retreat to beige cardigans and slippers and spend their long days attempting to deny or forget the atrocities they committed in the past. Their nights are a torment of anticipation as they await their discharge by Life. Their earlier confidence in their own invincibility returns to mock them; quite often they attempt to return to the safety of their childhood religion, but it's futile because they contemptuously closed those doors long ago. They die screaming, though often unheard. Nurses report that when their lifeless bodies are discovered, their features are contorted in horror. Their scratchy, terrified. deathbed confessions are dismissed for the worthlessness they are. It's to be doubted that Crowley's in a position to grant them any comfort.
That there is organised pedophilia in the Nothern Rivers seems beyond doubt. In fact, there are some worried worthies there right now, apparently. Seems one of their procurers from the 80's and 90's found God, underwent exorcism and is now fighting belatedly on behalf of all those runaways and homeless children lured into supposedly 'benevolent' children's services back then. The ex-procurer apparently possesses photos, recordings, names and the private addresses of the perverts in whose homes the procurer was made welcome, back in the days when harvesting vulnerable children for the enjoyment of perverts was so easy and profitable. Personal retribution is apparently the-go now, seeing the autorities have proven themselves so corrupt. Brings to mind the slaughtered high profile individuals on the south coast of NSW and the individual who found himself at the business end of a chair leg on the Gold Coast some years ago. For the children who survived and lived to tell the story (and/or members of their families), revenge is sweet, apparently.
Like most, I have no particular respect for men who need to belong to secret societies in order they may perpetuate their own arrested development and other infantile preoccupations. A man is as a man does and that's how he's judged by What Matters just a few short years down the track. The rank and file members of all organisations are simply the drudges; the drones; the base of pyramid. They never get even half-close to the apex; they simply try to salve their conscience and ego by pretending. Those at the apex despise the lumps which make up the base of the pyramid. In fact, they despise them even more than does the rest of society. But, you know, to each his own ...
Originally posted by Cug
Well even if that is the case.. other than the title of this thread, and the GG's mistaken idea. The O.T.O. is not part of the Masons, and the Masons are not part of the O.T.O.
Why shouldn't people who follow the religion of Thelema form groups? Every other religion out there does it.
Who is "you"? Why would they post that stuff? hate and fear of what they don't understand.
What would you do if someone was basically calling you a pedophile and a murderer? That is what she did to me.
So you would be happy if someone started claiming that the Swiss were all child abusers?
Money creates justice? How does a group that can't afford to buy a building for it's meetings have money? (and only 12 local bodies even have a 24/7 rental of a space)
Well that's obvious. But really how can you expect to understand something by reading excerpts? Especially with the part in question is further clarified later in the text?
Ah! An excellent case of misunderstanding, along with a missquote.
It's called expulsion and jail time, and if they do it to one of my friends/family well lets say it's not going to be nice.
But you cant play what ifs with peoples lives.
Originally posted by osram
Yeah i have perfectly realized that the O.T.O. is not exactly the same as freemasonry. And i doubt that this is really important if we are discussing possible cases of child-abuse actually.
Why is defending free-masonry or O.T.O. more important than thoroughly investigating indications of child abuse?
After all it's not the freemasons or OTO who got sued for 30000 australian dollars.
And who defends the children? If they really became victims of child abuse??
Why can't you just step over her emotionally-influenced "words".. Rather than becoming emotionally related to freemasonry or OTO yourselves.. and defend the "grand whatever" at all costs?
Well if you know it is absolutely not true.. wheres the problem? I really doubt that she said "Cug is a child-abuser!"
Well i guess a group of people certainly has more money than a single couple. Or are you trying to picture OTO as a wellfare charity group of unemployed people who are trying to realize some sort of re-integration project here?
Possibly you can tell us how many members OTO has or what their possibilities/influences look like?
What do you mean by only 12 local bodies even have a 24/7 rental of a space? Because that sounds like alot to me. I have been in socalled "groups" which couldnt even afford one 24/7 rental of a space. Or am i misunderstanding something?
I really can only say that some contents of the OTO book of law sounds very "evil".
And why would that mentor OTO guy (which is only another human.. i know) post pictures of himself with a Satanic book.. picking exactly the same pose as seen on the Logo of some Child-Charity organization?
But I don't think that we are here to understand OTO-Philosophy. I won't dedicate alot of time to perfectly understand it. And even if i did understand it. Understanding of the OTO-Philosophy, or the Philosophy itself would be no excuse IF there really IS a case of child-abuse.
Do you understand what i want to say?
Ah! An excellent case of misunderstanding, along with a missquote.
But maybe you can explain why those negative-seeming excerpts should be interpreted as something good?
Originally posted by Richard67
I was actually trying to reply to tkmelb's post of 21-11-06.
Originally posted by Richard67
I'm sorry but that's just not good enough.
"Heard a few stories"?
"Nothing's impossible"?
The gaiaguys nuts are posting photographs of high profile politicians & celebrities (accessible to anyone on the planet) and labelling them paedophiles and satanic ritual abusers - and you're saying "well...could be"? As CUG says above, put yourself on that list and imagine how you'd feel.
Even more important, I think, are the plights of actual victims of this type of abuse, who deserve a lot better than to have the issue tossed around some insane website amid UFOs and crop circles...
And there's no logic or reason with the pair behind gaiaguys - the more people, govt dept.s and courts refute their allegations, the more they believe they're right. Anyone who doesn't buy it just becomes part of the "masonic conspiracy".
Originally posted by tkmelb
Sorry to burst your bubble Richard, but i originally found the article online HERE, not at the giaguys site. I believe that Billy Meier is a total hoax. That in itself shows how seriously I take the giaguys as their site is practically a shrine to him. However Dr Michaelson, that is totally different. From all I have read about her she does in no way seem like a kook.
Originally posted by Richard67
There's a big difference between a thoroughly researched piece of journalism, that an editor chooses to publish, and that a reporter puts his name to and stands behind, versus idle gossip around the water cooler. In fact, they are usually exact opposites.
I really think you need to stop asking "why shouldn't I believe this" and start asking "why should I?"
Because opinions are like arseholes - everybody's got one.
This thread seems to have exhausted itself of intelligent debate - of which there has been plenty - so I'm out of here. Adios
Originally posted by tkmelb
Just one question though, If the gaiguys site had an article on Hitlers hatred of the jews would that make it no longer true and a lie?
Originally posted by Masonic Light
The thing about O.T.O. here is that no one in the organization has been accused of violating the law by any alleged victims. It just all boils down to Gaiaguys and a few others being offended by the Thelemic Scriptures. No supposed victim has come forward saying "Hey, O.T.O. did this to me". It's that these folks point out such and such a verse in the Thelemic holy writings and say, "Wow, these people must be criminals".
Originally posted by Nyghtfall
Originally posted by tkmelb
Just one question though, If the gaiguys site had an article on Hitlers hatred of the jews would that make it no longer true and a lie?
This is a fallacy, and not even a good one. Hitlers hatred towards jews is factual, it has been proven in the past by large amounts of evidence.
The things written on the gaiaguys website are at best assumptions, and when someone doesn't agree with them they're accused of being part of the conspiracy.
Reina Michaelson has now admitted in a personal statement that her accusations towards the OTO are just assumptions, without any form of valid evidence.
Everything there is to say about this case has already been said by Masonic Light: