Stop blaming Al-Qaeda on the London Bombings!

Thanks for the nice welcome!

Hey, for everyone who is still reading this thread, I just want to say that I just watched the first video (all I have time/energy to do tonite). It was really good.

I mean it...even if you don't subscribe to the point of view that Al Qaeda doesn't exist (I haven't even gotten to that part yet to make my own conclusion about it) - it was a very well-done piece. Interviews were done with the major players and it was a very interesting take on history...

...kind of like... The Stepford Wives meets The Matrix in a way. Very interesting to see the things that were going on around the world at a time I was much too young to understand or care!

So, if you haven't seen them yet because you're resisting the idea of them, I suggest you watch them anyway. After all, isn't there a saying about knowing your opposition? Besides, there are some parts that are quite entertaining...even humorous!

Can't wait to see the others! Thanks for linking them!

To say that Al Qaeda doesn't exist is to say that Salafism and takfirs do not exist either. You might as well stick your head in the sand and click your heels three times and say "there's no place like Mecca... there's no place like Mecca."

A rose by any other name... I say.

It is hard to track them and pin them down because there are new people entering every day while the old ones are dying or being captured and listed as lieutenants. Iraq is now a training camp for terrorists to "wet test" their craft against Americans and those considered kafirs.

Tidepooler, nice relevant post.

This piece I quoted here is just a classic case of pure ignorance. The definition of stupidity to back up a claim for war.

Originally posted by WissNX01

Will another war solve all our problems? I don't think so.

It will if our enemies are dead.

[edit on 7-9-2005 by websurfer]

Originally posted by xman_in_blackx
To say that Al Qaeda doesn't exist is to say that Salafism and takfirs do not exist either. You might as well stick your head in the sand and click your heels three times and say "there's no place like Mecca... there's no place like Mecca."
...

"stick your head in the sand" --> lol, maybe you should do that more often, If your convinced your right, I want to know why exactly you are participating in this thread.

Of course there is no place like Mecca, its a religous shrine that has in its dirt a piece of human history.

Al Qauda just a fictional name to support the war on terror. The reason it works is because the voting people have a personal connection, an angst if you will, directly connected to an unknown group of murderers that the Bush admin coined al qauda.

I watched the file eudaimonia put up, and i thought it was the most accurate depiction of the war on terroism out of anything else i have read or watched. The most amusing part was when cheyney is talking about al queda's underground caves in afgan. LoL On meet the press they showed a picture of a underground fortress, and all they found was a few empty caves. Also the part that shocked me was all of the american terroists, the so called sleeper cells in detroit etc..
eudaimonia, you get my way above top secreat for the month, great link

Congratulations, wierdo, 99% of the surfing population is intelligent enough to understand the T&C of this board, and most people have enough sense not to flaunt their disdain for the rules. Get the story straight. You made it public that you would flaunt the rules, and I made it public that you would be dealt with. This is your last chance. Knock off your crap and participate, or be banned and find another board who either has lax rules or the patience to deal with your kind of drama. I don't care which.
By the way, u2u me and let me know your decision.

Oh I think someone asked earlier if anyone had a copy of the statement in original Arabic, here's a copy:

Stop blaming Al-Qaeda on the London Bombings!

Stop blaming Bush, America and Apple pie and for all the worlds problems.

The REAL Problem

Originally posted by SportyMB
Stop blaming Bush, America and Apple pie and for all the worlds problems.

Actually, apple pie is responsible for a lot of the world's problems.

Excessive consumption of apple pie -- which is difficult to resist when it's really good pie -- is a leading cause of obesity, which in turn leads to a host of other problems.

However, we should place the blame for the world's numerous pie-related problems squarely where it belongs.

I blame the Dutch.

Originally posted by hardbodyactiv
Ok. I've had enough of this crap. I was listening to Talk Sport (Britain's most listened to radio station)as this happened and was alerted to the first attack that was described as a possible derailment or explosion on a London Underground train. Then the power grid suffered a total shutdown, which was undetermined at the immediate time but was attributed to and associated with the train. Then things went crazy and there was reports of more explosions from Edgware Road, Russell Square and so on.

Yes, obviously there was immediate speculation from the presenters of the show that this may be due to a terrorist act but during my viewing of Sky News at the same time, the Police were quick to quash this as a potential and that this was no more than speculation.

It was only when this latest incarnation of Al Quaeda took responsibility via the web-site that the media speculation was acknowledged by the Police.

Perhaps this was just one radio station reporting on events ?

I was at work, and one of my colleagues phoned in having picked up on a major event in London breaking on the radio, (one of his staff has a couple of kids working in central London, and both of whom are ok).
Anyway, back ot, some people listened to the radio, and I and others sat on the BBC news website.

The initial reports, (at maybe the stage of the 2nd bomb) were of a power surge. By maybe the third, or certainly the fourth tho' a link with terrorism was being made and headlining the story, and this theme matured quickly to become the cause on the next update (replacing the power surge idea).

I didn't note the time of the updates, and owing to the evolving nature of the BBC lead story (in that it's updated, rather then replaced) I can't give sources to the stories evolution, which I accept leaves it open to criticism, and questions of subjectivity, and inaccurate recollection. (I'm content with what I observed, so feel free).

On the subject of AQ - does it actually matter if they exist as an entity, or as an idea ? Does it matter if they are a CIA creature from the 1980's, or an ancient secret society of jihadists ?

The point now is that it's become a banner, an aspiration, a philosophy, whatever, and pretty much open to anyone to claim allegiance to. so whether it's the Abu Hafs al-Masri Brigades, Hizb-ut-Tehrir, or even Barder Meinhoff, Shining Path or whoever, is claiming it's 'AQ' really that significant a question?

-------------------

Edit:

Having poked around the BBC website for a bit, I came across
this:

Iran has condemned the bomb attacks in London as inhumane, and offered its condolences to the victims, but one of Iran's top clerics, Ayatollah Mohammed Emami-Kashani called al-Qaeda an "illegitimate child" of the west.

"The BBC's Frances Harrison in Tehran says Iran's view is that US funding for extremist Sunni Muslim groups opposing the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan in the 1980s set the stage for the emergence of the Taleban and al-Qaeda.
[...]
"You talk about al-Qaeda. Have you forgotten who has bred al-Qaeda?" he asked, in remarks addressed to UK Prime Minister Tony Blair.

"It's the illegitimate child of America and Israel, but you name it Islam. This savagery is not Islam. It is coming from inside of you and it is now punching you." "


[edit on 9-7-2005 by 0951]

Guys, the problem is very complex, and it goes deep many levels. One has to think about the details as well as the overall picture in order to reach a useful conclusion.

Let's talk about Al-Qaeda first. Let's see the overall picture: Al Qaeda is a terrorist group organization, i.e. it is an organization of terrorist groups around the world. This means that Al-Qaeda must have thousands of members around the world. Since Al-Qaeda has been responsible for most terrorist acts the last few years around the world it must be wide spread.

Now let's talk about the possibilities of Al-Qaeda not being uncovered, at least partially, in any place on the Earth. How is this possible? after all these years, there has never been a set of arrests that has led to exterminating a terrorist group connected to Al-Qaeda. So where is Al-Qaeda? where are its bases? what are its methods? what is their traits? what explosives are they using?

The fact that after all these years we know very little about this terrorist organization, even if it is so widespread around the world, can easily lead us to the fact that there is something fishy behind Al-Qaeda.

Now let's talk about the specific circumstances that the UK terrorist incident took place. The London bombings happened right at the beginning of the G8 summit, where the greatest 8 leaders of the world were going to discuss how to end poorness in Africa. The London events come at a time which is very convinient for the G8: they can easily say that, instead of giving money to the poor, they must redirect the money to the 'war against terror'.

Additionally, the London bombings came after the first time Tony Blair disagreed with US policy (for environmental issues). What another great coincidence! If someone wanted to put pressure on Blair, there couldn't have been a better time.

Furthermore, the London bombings took place right after London was elected for hosting the Olympic Games of 2012. Now there is another coincidence! the security package for the Olympic games is very huge. For Athens 2004, the security bill went over 10 million euros. There were also some terrorist events in Athens before the Olympics, remember?

Of course the London bombings were planned for weeks, even months. So whoever chosen this specific date to do the bombings should have information on who was going to vote for London...which means that there may be a connection between terrorists and the Olympic committee.

Let's now examine if the terrorist acts are the result of religious foundamentalism. It is true that extremist Muslims want to have a jihad against Christians. But look the places that there are terrorist acts! If the terrorist acts were truly based on religious beliefs, don't you think that it would be Italy and Greece that would have been hit? after all, Italy is where the basis of Catholicism is (which is the 90% of Christians around the world), and Greece is the place that the basis of Orthodox Christianity is. And there has been a problem with the Greek Patriarch of Jerusalem lately, who has sold buildings and land to Israel that has been donated/given to the Orthodox Church by Palestinians...but instead of seeing terrorist acts in those places, that are the roots of Christianity, we see bombings in London, where a large percentage of the population is Muslim, where there are over 200 languages spoken every day, where people of various nations live in peace side by side, where there is the economic bases of Arabs....Furthermore, why there are no terrorist acts in other places around the globe where non-Muslims live? after all, according to Muslim extremists, all non-believers must die by the sword! Why aren't any terrorist acts of Al Qaeda in China, for example? in northern European countries? in Germany? in France? France especially could have been an easy target, but a strike against France would only strengthen French people' views against the war on terror (and possibly against US), and the 'powers in place' would certainly not want that.

Let's now analyse who stands to benefit from these terrorist acts. We all know that the 'war on terror' is not going very well lately. The polls say people are against the war in Iraq. The popularity of Bush and Blair are not what it was a few years ago. The price of oil is very high, but it can not go higher, since there is peer pressure to lower the prices, since demand is so high. A religious foundamentalist political leader has recently been elected as the president of Iran. The pressure from environmentalist groups has been rising, as it is evident from the events surrounding G8.

After all the above facts, isn't it plainly clear that there is something at least fishy going on. I know it is difficult to accept the concept of terrorism being actually driven by CIA, Mossad and the like and sponsored by Bush and Blair, but as the great Sherlock Holmes once said: "my dear Watson, if all cases are proven wrong except one, we must accept that one as the truth, no matter how impropable it seems"!!!

Originally posted by 0951

Perhaps this was just one radio station reporting on events ?

I was at work. I and others sat on the BBC news website.

The initial reports, (at maybe the stage of the 2nd bomb) were of a power surge. By maybe the third, or certainly the fourth tho' a link with terrorism was being made and headlining the story, and this theme matured quickly to become the cause on the next update (replacing the power surge idea).

On the subject of AQ - does it actually matter if they exist as an entity, or as an idea ? and pretty much open to anyone to claim allegiance to. so is claiming it's 'AQ' really that significant a question?

Sorry about the truncated quote 0951. I hope I did not change your original message by doing so.

1st off, I 'm glad to see that this thread is still up and running and attracting the attention that it deserves for its sensationalist title, which is what caught my attention in the first place.

2nd, I'd like to thank Marid Audran for the Vote posted and also to Netchicken & infinite from ATS Council & Forum Staff for the Applause for my post.

3rd, UFObeliever, I never suggested that YOU were being criticised in my post. I quoted your post surrounded by the post of TheShroudOfMemphis; now that post was something entirely different and does suggest through inference that if no video evidence is forthcoming then it must be a cover-up and conspiracy. Sorry if I came over as harsh but there was also no need for your sarcastic remark about me apparently informing you that Muslim extremists don't like Westerner's. Many on these Forums do not bother to take the time to investigate their subjects at all before posting. It was not meant to be patronising.

4th, weirdo, yes I do understand how Supercomputers can be utilised to undertake the process of Facial Recognition, but so much for your "Top Secret" information that would get you "band" as you put it. This technology is used extensively in the show "Las Vegas" starring James Cann, so its not exactly much of a "Top Secret" is it? As for it being used for this situation. Well my sarcasm was obviously too veiled for you regarding this (10,000 NERDS, etc.) The point is that the availability of the technology and resources required are still so much in their infancy that I do not believe that this would be a successful tactic, not to say that it is not right now currently being employed, just that it is such an unbelievably difficult job to undertake successfully. We really are talking 100's of millions of frames. Every single one would need to be analysed and compared to whatever database of images used as the test subjects. I am not a Computer Engineer or Programmer, so I can only conjecture that even using Supercomputers, this would take a very, very long time.


This thread continues to interest me unlike so many others on ATS [example: “I can levitate and I can prove it coz my g/f's brothers' best friend dreamt he saw a 15yo boy with black hair flying soooo high(& I'm 15 and have black hair)”]...and more stoner stuff like this.

This is a serious and personal subject since it happened in my home city.

So in response to 0951, although you state that by the 3rd or 4th bomb there was a link to terrorism being suggested, this was by the media and not the Police. They did not announce the link until the confirmation from the web-site. I was listening to Talk Sport and had Sky News on at the same time. As all are aware, waiting for updates on web-sites is no substitute for live news reporting.

I fully agree with you and many others that AQ as an ‘organisation’ is a very easy platform for any new bunch of nutters to jump upon and wave their banner from. As to whether it really is them is a very important question to verify, especially in light of the express urge of Bush wanting to push on into Iran. Any link, however tentative, or true or not will be used by his cronies to justify spreading the War On Terror to that nation. I somehow doubt that such a move will be met with the support that the invasion of Iraq generally received. But that is for another thread maybe.

My thoughts are with the families of the dead and injured and my support is (currently) for my Government.

Edit: (Sorry this post has taken so long to upload. I started it at 11-30am but had to take my family into London @ 12-00pm.)

Peace Out



[edit on 9/7/05 by hardbodyactiv]

Obviously the question and the root of this kind of terrorism is whether this despicable act will be repeated here in London again next week or in the weeks to come.

Londoners are generally a phlegmatic and cynical bunch, tolerant and understanding towards Citizens of all other nations, gregarious and generous, with quick wit and studied sincerity. It is an oddity that even though most of us never lived through the 2nd World War, Londoners are often described to have a "Blitz" spirit when facing adversity.

We cannot be daunted by these lunatics, but collective confidence is a fragile entity.

I hope for all that there are no recurrences as the sense of pride and togetherness that was felt by all who travelled into work in London on Friday morning was very moving and there was a definite sense of "Identity".

Peace Out

remember the train bombing in spain?? there wasn't nearly as much uproar about that as there is about the london bombing..........why? i geuss it is only 'tragic' when americians and british die....and when they are killed by 'Ok I Didit'....Al-queda..... the demise continues

Originally posted by websurfer

"stick your head in the sand" --> lol, maybe you should do that more often, If your convinced your right, I want to know why exactly you are participating in this thread.

I participated in this thread because I know that Salafism and takfir exist. They are not figmemts of my imagination, or something that a US government agency created.

To say that Al Qaeda or similar organizations don't exist is like an ostrich sticking its head in the sand thinking that if it doesn't see it, it must not exist. This is flawed thinking at best.

Al Qaeda has been taking advantage of the situation in Iraq and using it as a training ground for their recruits. They consider the Iraqi people kafirs so they have no problems killing them too. They do this as they did in Chechnya and video tape their deeds for recruiting others. Spreading the word of the martyr and those who will stand up to the kafirs.

They want to return to the old ways and bring the entire word into its fold of Islam at the end of a sword if need be.

I wont sedate anyone into thinking that there are no threats from Salafism or militant Islam. This whole thread is a red herring to promote an agenda that the West is the Great Satan. The next thing will be to say that all Americans and Brits are war mongers or nazis just like their governments to demonize them making it easier to perform their attrocities. (oh wait.. that is already happening)

"Al Qaeda" (or whatever they are called) is very real. Hopefully, it won't take them showing up in your hometown to convinvce you that something needs to be done about it.

While you are at it, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. He is not Al Qaeda. They do not exist.

Masterp,
Thanks for your post - I found it to be compelling and an interesting discussion. You definitely made some excellent points and I have to agree --

there is something fishy behind Al-Qaeda

To everyone else with interest in this topic,
I just finished viewing movie #2, and I can sum it up in one word by saying... "WOW!".

What interesting parallels between the "neo-conservatives" and the islamists! The history of each of the powers of interest is so fascinating. That they were both born out of differing philosophies, yet (aside from the concept that it's okay to kill anyone and everything that disagrees with their concept of religion -- well, wait...I guess it's really not so different, is it?) the struggles seemed to parallel each other so fantastically.

I also must comment that it is so nice to hear something on this topic from outside of the main stream American media. I stopped watching all news programs here many months ago, because all in all, I just can't stand the spin on things. I know there are other sources for information (particularly on the web), but mostly, I've avoided the whole thing because 1 - it is so very hard to know who to believe anymore, and 2 - well, frankly...ignorance is bliss sometimes!

Americans (and I can say this because I'm one of them) are sooooooooo self centered. We, as a whole, (and I know, if you're American and reading this you're different) think we are the center of the universe. Anyone who doesn't think the same way we do, or have our same philosophies is termed 'evil' and the people in power find a way to destroy them (whether they are from other countries or not). All you have to do is look at our social infrastructure and political system to see it.

remember the train bombing in spain?? there wasn't nearly as much uproar about that as there is about the london bombing..........why? i geuss it is only 'tragic' when americians and british die

This is exactly the kind of point I'm trying to make, clearmind! I thought about exactly the same thing. I do remember that there was quite a bit of news coverage, but nothing even close to how the American media has jumped all over the (scary music inserted here -- dun dun DUN) LONDON BOMBINGS (please don't take that for me making light of the situation there - I'm making fun of American Media).

But, I digress...
...I guess I try to view things, like these films, with my own certain philosophy. That is, you can listen to extreme conservatism or you can listen to extreme liberalism, but the truth is probably somewhere there in the middle. It is a continuum, and we have to keep that in perspective.

What I expected to see in the films (though I don't know why) was something along the lines of "those poor extremist terrorist types have gotten a bad rap and aren't as evil as you might think". So far, that isn't the case at all. Instead, I realize just how dangerous they really are. But more importantly than that is why they think the way they do. I can't tell you how many Americans I've heard as the question, "Why do they hate us so much?". Well, here are at least some of the answers.

All I can say to those here that are responding with posts dismissing these films, is to consider watching them anyway. They are very enlightening - and not in a "you have been wrong about everything you think" kind of way. More in a "maybe you haven't heard the whole history so you can have a complete understanding of the situation" kind of way.

...off to watch movie #3! eudaimonia, I'll be forwarding the link to the movies to some of my family members who I think will find it of interest. Thanks for providing the information!

Yes I agree that Bush and many of his cronies are morally corrupt but OUR governments do not murder us in order to wage war on another nation.

in the interest of denying ignorance, we should all remember the u.s. government has been considering such actions since the 60's. operation northwoods was plan by the joint chiefs of staff in 1962 to blame staged 'terrorist' attacks on castro in order to justify an invasion of cuba.
en.wikipedia.org...
www.whatreallyhappened.com...

more recently, we have the example of the project for the new american century. pnac's members include some of the most powerful men in the u.s. today (rumsfeld, wolfowitz, jeb bush, dick cheney....). in 1997 pnac stated that, in order for the u.s. to achieve their goal of global dominance, there needed to be a catastrophe akin to a 'new pearl harbor.' such an event did happen, soon after these men regained their power, on 9/11/2001.
www.ifamericansknew.org...

of course these things don't prove that bush&blair were responsible for thursday's tragedy, but they do justify people theorizing about conspiracies.

Originally posted by eudaimonia

Originally posted by WissNX01
Yeah, its all about Bush and Blair wanting this for thier war on terror.

Yes, it is.

Its all about the Jews and thier secret plan to take over the world. Oh heavens NO!, dont blame proven terrorists or Al Qaeda!, for Islam is a peaceful religion and Al Qaeda is a humanitarian group!!

Now you're being dramatic and you're not taking this seriously at all. This is not a joke wiss. Maybe you should do a bit more research on the existance of Al-Qaeda first before you reject everything I say.

Bull crap! Al Qaeda and the Taliban oppressed and destroyed the people and country of Afganistan. They have been responsible for bombing anything, everything, and everyone under the sun. They use children to strap bombs to, and march them off to blow up other MUSLIMS up. Oh, lets not forget the train bombing is Spain, the USS Cole, or that little insignifigant event of 9-11. Lets ignore the fact that these peaceful people like to chop off heads and put it on the internet. Heck, now they are capturing thier own people and knocking them off.

Yeah, lets just keep blaming Bush and Blair.

Really? Funny how you mentioned 9/11. Blair and Bush's War in Iraq approval numbers has been dropping considerably. More than 65% disapprove the War on Iraq in Britain. Americans are coming very close to that number. Get the picture?

It took the Americans a long time to disapprove "The War on Terror" They finally found he truth. Or did they...

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by jsobecky

by ECK
Considering the fact that Bush's poll numbers have been tanking,

Totally untrue. You want to see poor ratings, look at Chirac's.

gindy.blogspot.com...
www.guardian.co.uk...
www.scoop.agonist.org...

YEP. Chirac is VERY unpopular.

Hey .. and didn't he just dis'
Britain?? Complain about their food and everything? Say they were
'the worst next to Denmark (or whatever)'. And he is very upset that
Paris didn't get the Olympics, but London did. That interrupts his plan
to try to make France the center of the world and relevant. Yep ...
musta' been Chirac. Heck, why not? The anti-bush folks use that
kind of logic to 'make a case' against Bush all the time.

For those who just looooooooove to say 'Bush did it' ... they guy is
a lame duck president who no longer cares if he is 'popular' or not.
He can't run again. To claim that he had the bombs set off in London ...
well ... that is just silly.

Here is a novel idea ... place the blame where it belongs .. on the
radical muslim terrorists.

Chirac must be happy that London got bombed. Hey, if Paris got the Olympics, then he'd be lying in a bed in the ER because of the "terrorists" aka BushCo.

Originally posted by Gazrok

I think it's important to point out how the media is pushing this idea to the american public that the London Bombings is related to a terrorist organization called Al-Qaeda.

How is it blaming someone when just such a group CLAIMS responsibility?
Sure, you could point to some grand conspiracy of a false site, false group, etc. but even the media keeps repeating OVER AND OVER that this claim is still not confirmed.

Al-Qaeda does exist, and so does Bin Laden. However, they aren't the only terrorist organization in the world either. Also, any organization could call themselves "Al-Qaeda" and not necessarily even be linked to the actual group, just as every organization with "Jihad" in the name....isn't necessarily part of one entity.

Ummm...I might have missed this, but when did Al Queda CLAIM responsibility and how? Interesting how they never say HOW they claimed responsibility, but the news always tell you Al Queda claimed responsibility!