"Masonic" Handshakes and Other Nonsense...

I am encouraged by the civillity being displayed here.

Well done guys, let's keep it up.

OK-OK,

Lets take one question at a time:

"Now can you explain to me, without quoting scripture, just why it is you think Masonry is so bad"

Masonry is bad for a multitude of reasons. Which would you like to discuss first ?

oaths
the cult myth
the occultic myth
signs
rejection from the church.
masons and christians
threats on others within the Masons
rituals
ritual sermons
masonic sermons
paganism
GAOTU
education
wages of masters
charities
legend of the third degree
church or not a church
leaving the masons
secracy
hidden agendas
the three primary functions of the church or fraternity
literature
initiaitions
do mason believe in the Gio of the Bible

There is much more, but this is a start. If I cannot use the bible ? why ? I am not quite sure If you do consider yourself a christian ? I will then be using quotes from former masons that have become christians or masons that have left because they could not deny their own personal God ( Jesus Christ ) to follow the god of masonry or other reasons. I will also be including other materials, documents and quotes from the masonry church as well as member testimony.

Pick a topic and lets go,

Truth

Originally posted by Truthisoutthere
Masonry is bad for a multitude of reasons. Which would you like to discuss first ?

I think perhaps you are missing my point...

I want to know why you feel Masonry is against Christianity for starters. I don't want you to quote the Bible because I want your thoughts on the matter, not copy and paste from the Good Book.

First off, Masonry is a fraternity. While it does have lessons and messages that perhaps strengthen ideals and an individual Mason's relationship with his own God (Jesus Christ, Allah, Jehova, pick one), it does not make an issue of what religion a man prescribes to. They don't, because they are not a church, they are a fraternity. Do you think Chi Omega, or Kappa Beta Epsilon, or the Knights of Pythias, or the Orangemen, or the Odd Fellows, or the Elks, the Moose, the Woodmen of the World, et al are somehow different? They are fraternities, not religions. A Christian Mason follows Christ; a Muslim Mason follows Allah. What is your problem with this? No one "Denounces Christ" or in any other way compromises their own personal religion to be a Mason.

Are you saying that in your opinion, according to your Christians are not allowed to fraternize with non-Christians, under pain of eternal damnation?

If you are going to set the bar for one type of organization, you have to be prepared to draw lines and make clear exactly what the issue is.

Most of the things on your list are non-issues, as they do not pertain to Freemasonry. If you'd like, I can take each item on the list and explain why, but I would rather keep this discussion as a discussion, rather than me analyzing and itemizing your list of "problems" (which, by the way is almost tit for tat with most fundamentalist "Christian" Ministries that try to say that Freemasonry is an inherently evil organization).

If you are going to quote ex-Masons, fine, but most that claim they are either aren't, or the most sensational ist parts of their stories have been shown to be fabrications.

I look forward to your response, but I don't think I will be on for the rest of the night so I will have to pick this up tomorrow.

[edit on 6/4/05 by The Axeman]

Originally posted by Truthisoutthere
*snippity-do-da*

I will also be including other materials, documents and quotes from the masonry church as well as member testimony.

Pick a topic and lets go,

Truth

I pick this one....the Masonry Church

(this should be interesting)

I pick Paganism.

Don't hurt yourself trying to explain everything, Truth.

Originally posted by Truthisoutthere
"Now can you explain to me, without quoting scripture, just why it is you think Masonry is so bad"

Masonry is bad for a multitude of reasons. Which would you like to discuss first ?

Can you explain why you claim that masons worship a false God and have rejected Christ? This is where the majority of my beef with you comes from, and I would like to hear, in your own words, why you think this is so.

I bet Truth is going to stay up all night writing up fraudulent stories.

Really though I am quite eager to read what he has to say.

Originally posted by Majestic12
I bet Truth is going to stay up all night writing up fraudulent stories.

Really though I am quite eager to read what he has to say.

Preconceptions. I hope you're wrong.

Preconceptions. I hope you're wrong.

Your misconceptions: I know I am right.

Originally posted by Majestic12

Preconceptions. I hope you're wrong.

Your misconceptions: I know I am right.

Majestic12:

Please, if you dont have anything of value to add to this thread, do not post in it. I respect your right to express your opinion, but Truth is making an effort (or so it seems) to put forth his ideas in a meaningful and constructive manner; your goading him is not conducive to the kind of discussion I am trying to get out of him...

To say that you know you are right is not only arrogant, but foolhardy as well, in the context that you have said it. You know what side of the fence I am on in this discussion, but the time for immature comments is over. If you have something to add, please do, but if you are simply going to attack and insult Truth, then I would ask you to do it elsewhere.

Now then, I am still waiting on your response, Truth.



[edit on 6/5/05 by The Axeman]

Seeing as we appear to be on virgin territory here it would be shame to spoil things. I would caution against too many people posting questions to Truth so the thread doesn't get swamped and we lose focus. I've got plenty to say on the subject but will wait to see how things develop.

Thanks AXe for help keeping this on track. I do very much appreciate it !
Sorry for not replying right away it was Sat night and I went out.

As far as the others are concerned Maj and Seb-What do you care what I think ? If you are going to come hear to just throw a wrench in an adult intellegent conversation you might as well leave. I hate to dissapoint you but I am done at this point dealing with the both of you and your sartcastic remarks. You are not here to learn or even have an open mind to debate without conflict. If things change in the future, I will reconsider but for now I think it's better that we stay focused and on the subject.

I will be in and out today but I would like start out by replying to your first question and then if applicable ask you a question.

Thanks again Truth !

Originally posted by Truthisoutthere
As far as the others are concerned Maj and Seb-What do you care what I think ? If you are going to come hear to just throw a wrench in an adult intellegent conversation you might as well leave. I hate to dissapoint you but I am done at this point dealing with the both of you and your sartcastic remarks. You are not here to learn or even have an open mind to debate without conflict. If things change in the future, I will reconsider but for now I think it's better that we stay focused and on the subject.

I don't think I asked anything in an unncivilized way. Certainly didn't merit this kind of response, did it?

And I care what you think because you ACCUSED ME OF IT. It was you who said that I worship a false God and have rejected Christ, so I would like to know your reasons for saying that. I would like to know why you believe that this is true of all Freemasons. And I believe everyone else here would like to know the same thing.

I am not being disrespectful and I am not being derrogatory. If you don't want to answer the question, then don't. But then it is you who is dodging this conversation and acting uncivil.

I would like to start off by saying that it will be difficult for me to tell you how I "feel" or "think" about something without including the scripture as that it is where I get my basis of my own morals values philosphies ect...... This however does not mean that I am weak or narrow minded because we ALL have instilled in our own lives the morals, values, philosphies from another source of somekind. Whether it be from a church, specific theology or religion, cult, occult, a parent, a teacher, a mentor, evolution etc......

I will however do my best to pose my questions and answers without scripture as long as possible, but when it comes time and involves church doctrine and theologies of both masonry and christianity, be assured that the scriptures will be used just as you will be using your resources to backup your own beliefs.

Let's Play-

Axeman- Question- I want to know why you feel Masonry is against Christianity for starters. I don't want you to quote the Bible because I want your thoughts on the matter, not copy and paste from the Good Book.

Truth- Answer- In my own thoughts masonry has perverted the term "christianity" as a whole because it's own doctrines and theolgies go completly against christianity.

Two Simple Questions Regarding Christianity:
b.) We need to ask ourselves what is christianity ?
c.) What does it mean to be a christian ?

In your own words please answer the above questions.

Two simple Questions Regarding Masonry:
d.) Should a true christian compromise his own beliefs to become a Mason ?
e.) Would this be honarble to God or the Masons ?

In your own words please answer the above questions.

Lastly: I think that we need to discuss the conflicts of christianity and masonry.

Thanks - I will check back in later.
Truth

Originally posted by Truthisoutthere
Truth- Answer- In my own thoughts masonry has perverted the term "christianity" as a whole because it's own doctrines and theolgies go completly against christianity.

This in no way answers the question Axeman posed to you. How do Freemasonry's doctrines "go completely against" Christianity???

Two Simple Questions Regarding Christianity:
b.) We need to ask ourselves what is christianity ?
c.) What does it mean to be a christian ?

Christiantiy is a religion based upon the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. To be a Christian means that you believe that the only way to enter heaven is by accepting that Jesus Christ died for your own sins.

d.) Should a true christian compromise his own beliefs to become a Mason ?
e.) Would this be honarble to God or the Masons ?

Freemasonry does not require you to compromise your own beliefs in order to be a mason, so I don't understand how this question applies to the discussion.

Lastly: I think that we need to discuss the conflicts of christianity and masonry.

We indeed need to, but you have not answered ANY of the questions presented to you. You have only asked questions that have NOTHING to do with the discussion. Are you avoiding answering our questions? If so, why?


[edit on 5-6-2005 by sebatwerk]

Originally posted by Truthisoutthere

Truth- Answer- In my own thoughts masonry has perverted the term "christianity" as a whole because it's own doctrines and theolgies go completly against christianity.

In the words of the Lone Ranger's trusty sidekick Tonto.....

How?

Originally posted by Truthisoutthere
I would like to start off by saying that it will be difficult for me to tell you how I "feel" or "think" about something without including the scripture as that it is where I get my basis of my own morals values philosphies ect...... This however does not mean that I am weak or narrow minded because we ALL have instilled in our own lives the morals, values, philosphies from another source of somekind. Whether it be from a church, specific theology or religion, cult, occult, a parent, a teacher, a mentor, evolution etc......

I will however do my best to pose my questions and answers without scripture as long as possible, but when it comes time and involves church doctrine and theologies of both masonry and christianity, be assured that the scriptures will be used just as you will be using your resources to backup your own beliefs.

OK dude, if you need to quote scripture to help illustrate your point, that's cool; however, I would appreciate it if you would not use only scripture to make your point for you - in other words I want to know how you feel about it and what your thought processes are concerning the issue at hand.

Let's Play-
In my own thoughts masonry has perverted the term "christianity" as a whole because it's own doctrines and theolgies go completly against christianity.

First of all, this didn't answer my question. If this is the kind of answers I can expect from you, I may well be wasting keystrokes. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt this time, however.

Now in response you your answer:

How? What doctrines and theologies are you talking about? Freemasonry doesn't care what religion its members are, so long as they believe in a Supreme Being, and the eternity of the soul. Without these core beliefs, the teachings of Freemasonry would be utterly useless and have no impact on the man. See what I mean? Freemasonry doesn't teach religion; in other words it has no religious dogma. What it does is teach moral lessons, using stories from the Bible to illustrate the point. Ever heard the expression the "moral of the story"? Fables, my friend. Same concept. The characters and stories from the Bible are used as examples on how we should conuct ourselves. This is not a "perversion" of Christianity. Please explain what you mean, i.e. how does this qualify as a perversion in your mind?

Two Simple Questions Regarding Christianity:
b.) We need to ask ourselves what is christianity ?

What happened to a.)?

Christianity is a religion founded on the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. (or at least it is supposed to be)

c.) What does it mean to be a christian ?

To me it means that you have accepted and you believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross for the purpose of ensuring that the sins of those who follow him will be forgiven. If you believe this, and you follow his teachings, you are a Christian.

Two simple Questions Regarding Masonry:
d.) Should a true christian compromise his own beliefs to become a Mason ?

Absolutely not. If a man feels he has to compromise his own beliefs to be a Mason, he should not join. Indeed, this is a disqualifier, and if it is apparent that there is a conflict, he will not be accepted and initiated.

e.) Would this be honarble to God or the Masons ?

If it were an issue, then no, it would not be. BUT, seeing as how a man does not compromise his own beliefs to join, this is a moot point.

Lastly: I think that we need to discuss the conflicts of christianity and masonry.

I don't know of any; but I would be interested to know what you think the conflicts are. Facts, please.

[edit on 6/5/05 by The Axeman]

I can see the sarcasim has already begun.

Reply to Seb- RELAX !! Stop getting so defensive and answering the questions yourself ! Can Axe and Myself disuss ? Is this ok ? Or would you like me to turn away now. Only confirming every view that I and others have ever held about the Masons ? It's because of punks like you !
You have done nothing to add to this at all but expose your own way of thinking ? You will believe what you will and that's it. You are right and everyone else is wrong.

Axe- This has alreday turned into a one way discussion here on your side. Why are you allowing this to happen ? Why the negative talk about my resouses and the attacks ? You asked me a question and I did in fact answer it compeletely and wanted "your" involvment in this forum without other brotheren (Seba) jumping in the way ? It's just like to talking to any other cult (mormonism or jehova witness ) that goes out to "witness for the cause" and they always send a newbe with a trained veteran. This way when I do bring up a valid point that the newbe cannot answer the veteren jumps in and reinforces the faith of the nebew. It's a tactic used by many cults ? I hope this is nt what is happening here ? Please tell me I wrong.

As I see it, if we keep up the games knowone will learn anything about the other. But maybe some don't want either of us to see and learn the truth ?
You tell me.

And yes, I agree ! I don't need to waste your time or mine so you tell me if you want to continue with this debate or not.

I am not sure what you didn't understand about my outlined questions ?
WE need to answer one thing at a time without jumping ahead with the views that you already have and let me answer the questions. Isn't this how a discussion is suppoosed to happen ?

Again Pleeeeease let me know if you would like to continue "Without the help of others" As I have no help on my side if you haven't noticed yet ?

Truth

Originally posted by Truthisoutthere
Only confirming every view that I and others have ever held about the Masons ? It's because of punks like you !

Wow! Truth...THAT sure is "Christian" of you. I'd been following this thread and was interested in contributing, but if you're an example of the kind of Christianity you speak of, I'll pass.

Maybe you shouldn't focus on Masons or Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses and turn your study to Christianity instead of quoting a few scriptures that fit your needs while you act exactly the same way you accuse OTHERS of acting.

[shrug]

Oh...and regarding your "continue..without the help of others" statement...this forum is for ANY member who wants to participate. Even us "punks" which you called Sebat in such a Christ-like manner

[edit on 5-6-2005 by senrak]

I'm still interested how Masonry perverted Christianity.

And also proof of recruitment....from your belowtopsecret ran thread......

www.belowtopsecret.com...

Lotsa unanswered questions.....

Edit: Oh yeah and that thing you said about the Masonry Church also.....

[edit on 5-6-2005 by Golfie]