"Masonic" Handshakes and Other Nonsense...

Originally posted by twitchy
Sabat-work, Listen to yourself, you're sitting there telling me that that you have to have the permission from the grand lodge, then claim in the same breath they are your equal. Permission/equal... Degrees, Shriners, Poobahs, whatever you want to call it, you answer to somebody, period. What thell kind of organization doesn't have a hierarchy? The first two degrees are lower than a third degree, that is a hierarchy. Step UP to Grand Lodges verses Joe Blow Lodges, Hierarchy. Christ man, buy a theasarus. Look up Head Honcho, cohceese, or Poobah. You gonna tell your worshipful master to sit down? Get real. Reality. The negative connotation of freemasonry is the fault of people like you who have a poor understanding of the functionality their own esotericism. Operative, speculative, I'm sure the difference in the two has nothing to do with structure eh?

Hierarchy.

Heh. You really just don’t get it, do you? I’m beginning to wonder if you ever will. Regardless, there is a flaw in your argument that I intend to point out.

Hierarchy, eh? Well, just what does hierarchy mean? Let’s see:

from dictionary.reference.com...

hi•er•ar•chy
n. pl. hi•er•ar•chies
1. A body of persons having authority.
2.
a. Categorization of a group of people according to ability or status.
b. The group so categorized.
3. A series in which each element is graded or ranked: put honesty first in her hierarchy of values.
4.
a. A body of clergy organized into successive ranks or grades with each level subordinate to the one above.
b. Religious rule by a group of ranked clergy.
5. One of the divisions of angels.

Well OK then. Now that we’ve cleared that up, let’s rewind for a sec. Twitchy, correct me if I’m wrong, as I would hate to be putting words into your mouth, but I think you are asserting here (and you have demonstrated it by the picture you posted) that the “hierarchy” you keep going on about has to do with degrees. No one is denying the fact that there are officers in Freemasonry, all the way from Blue Lodge to the appendant bodies. Each body has their own officers, for the purpose of administration, and carrying out certain duties or jobs. The Master presides over the lodge meetings, decides when the lodge will meet for that year, and he also appoints some officers (Junior/Senior Deacons, Treasurer, Secretary, etc. if I recall correctly. Please, someone let me know if I am in error about this.). There are three duly elected officers in the lodge; the Junior Warden, the Senior Warden, and the Worshipful Master. Now, I’m not sure as to the ins and outs of the duties of each of these positions, as I am an outsider, but I do know this: The Master is the Presiding Officer. Master is a title; it doesn’t mean that everyone must do exactly as he says, when and where he says to do it. It just doesn’t work that way.

The way you’re talking, and going by the graphic you posted, you are insinuating that first, the degree structure has something to do with rank, power, or authority, which it certainly does not, and second, the hierarchy is of a “I’m-higher-rank-than-you-so-you-have-to-do-what-I-say” nature. Both insinuations are, of course, wrong.

In Lodge, the officers have certain jobs to do. As I don’t have any first-hand experience in lodge meetings, I can’t tell you what each office entails, but I can give you examples. The Master, in addition to presiding over meetings, schedules the meetings, oversees things like when and where the lodge will do fundraisers, appoints members to do investigations of new Candidates, things of this sort. It’s not like the Master has all the brothers of the lodge doing his bidding like it’s some kind of military unit. He has a job to do. He is the administrator of the Lodge, so to speak. Now as far as the Wardens, I don’t really know what their jobs are, other than the fact that if the Master is unable to attend a meeting for some reason, the Senior Warden will preside, etc. Also I know that the Junior Warden is charged with planning the meals and such. As for Grand Lodge officers, well I really don’t know, but I think we can safely assume that it is a very similar situation. So you see, the whole “hierarchy” thing in the context that you are suggesting just isn’t there. We know by the definition posted above that there is in fact a hierarchy, but no different than any other organization. What Seb so adamantly denies is that this hierarchy has anything to do with degrees or pecking order, or whatever. No one is saying that there aren’t officers, in fact whenever I see posts from Masons stating something about this supposed hierarchy of degrees or whatever, they always say “The only hierarchy in Freemasonry is that of the lodge Officers.”

Also, it is important to note that nothing important happens in the lodge without the membership, not the Master himself, approves. This is done with a democratic voting process, with each member having one vote, and also the opportunity to speak his piece about why or why not he thinks a certain matter should or should not be passed.

So in short, the hierarchy is merely an administrative tool to get the things done that need to be done, and to do it in an orderly fashion. Pretty simple for someone who’s not wearing “conspiracy goggles”.

Now to address this:

Originally posted by CPYKOmega
Well If you need to know I was starting to like this thread. Until Sebatwerk here turned it into a soap opera just like every other thread. It was a humorous thread.. until you 2 ruined it.... yet again.

Yeah,we ruined it. Excuse me, but I think it was your pal twitchy who picked this particular fight. If you expect us to just be silent when this happens, well, frankly that’s too bad for you. Not gonna do it. I was trying to goof off and have a good time, but your boy just wouldn’t leave it alone. It’s really too bad , it might have been quite hilarious.

You claim to be true masons, yet true masons are supposed to keep their mouths shut when dealing with people who oppose you.

Says who? I know that in the FC degree the initiate is charged not to let his zeal for defending the fraternity cause him to act in such a way as to be dishonorable (I’m paraphrasing from memory, so forgive me any small inaccuracies), but I don’t think anyone here has crossed that line.

I know you will respond with a "clever" remark, but I don't care.

This is what you will probably say. "You have no clue what masonry entails... if you did you wouldn't post this sort of thing... blah blah...."

Amazing what you think you “know”, isn’t it?

If you truly are masons and care about not only yourselves, but the entire community as a whole... then you should help people... that is the true nature of what real free masons are. To help and to guide people into the right direction. Your current "power trip" regarding masonry and all of your egocentric remarks, show us what your true inner soul really thinks of the world.

Well, I can honestly say that if someone shows an inclination to learn, that’s exactly what will happen. If someone comes here and immediately starts posting lies, saying “I know this” or “I know that”, and refuses to acknowledge the posts authored in an attempt to correct them, they get dealt with. Sorry if you don’t like it.

I am glad that you tried to make a thread that was humorous.... but just like you have said in your own words... you have failed.

I don’t think I failed as much as some people hijacked my thread, and we rolled with it. Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do. Sue me.

I don't usually get this mad about something on ATS, but I had to say what I really though of these masonic threads.

As is your right. I have a right to say what I think about what you said, too.

Regarding if someone called my mother a slut.. as mentioned earlier in this thread. I would calmly talk to the person telling them to stop. But I fail to see how that analogy applies to this thread.

And if they kept on, and kept on, and kept on, and kept on, and kept on, and kept on, and kept on, and kept on, and kept on, and kept on, and kept on, and kept on, and kept on, and kept on, and kept on, and kept on, and kept on, and kept on, and kept on, and kept on, and kept on, and kept on, and kept on, and kept on, and kept on, and kept on, and kept on, and kept on, and kept on, and kept on, and kept on, and kept on, and kept on, and kept on, and kept on, and kept on, and kept on, and kept on, and kept on, and kept on, and kept on???

What then?

You 2 should read my poem entitled 33 here on ATS in the Collaborative Fiction section.... I know you guys would like it.

Maybe I will.

Originally posted by The Axeman
No one is denying the fact that there are officers in Freemasonry, all the way from Blue Lodge to the appendant bodies. Each body has their own officers, for the purpose of administration, and carrying out certain duties or jobs. The Master presides over the lodge meetings, decides when the lodge will meet for that year, and he also appoints some officers (Junior/Senior Deacons, Treasurer, Secretary, etc. if I recall correctly. Please, someone let me know if I am in error about this.). There are three duly elected officers in the lodge; the Junior Warden, the Senior Warden, and the Worshipful Master. Now, I’m not sure as to the ins and outs of the duties of each of these positions, as I am an outsider, but I do know this: The Master is the Presiding Officer. Master is a title; it doesn’t mean that everyone must do exactly as he says, when and where he says to do it. It just doesn’t work that way.
...
So in short, the hierarchy is merely an administrative tool to get the things done that need to be done, and to do it in an orderly fashion. Pretty simple for someone who’s not wearing “conspiracy goggles”.

Axeman:

You have voted The Axeman for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have one more vote left for this month.

You just told twitchy everything I was trying to say, but couldn't manage to find the right words. You are dead on in your assertions about the hirearchy of officers is merely an administrative convenience. In a fraternity, all members are EQUAL. Some merely hold certain official position in order to administer the fraternity. Freemasonry is no different.

What twitchy doesn't seem to understand, however, is that degrees have NOTHING to do with position or authority in Freemasonry. They are merely a record of which masonic rituals the brother has gone through. They do not denote masonic knowledge, position, function or authority. He seems to be having trouble with this concept, maybe you can help him out?

Way to go, bro!

I really appreciate all the effort you guys are putting forth here, but to try and claim there is no hierarchy in Freemaonsry is utterly ridiculous. If I had a ten ton pile of Bull Manure, as impressive it might seem, it's still a pile of bull manure.
According to you, freemasonry has somehow magicly escaped one of the very basic principles of Society of itself. Bologna. No hierarchy in freemasonry... yeah. It appears as though we have reached an impasse with this discussion, and I can't argue this point with somebody that says there is no hierarchy, then in the same breath says there is. That's called spin fellers.

Originally posted by twitchy
I really appreciate all the effort you guys are putting forth here, but to try and claim there is no hierarchy in Freemaonsry is utterly ridiculous. If I had a ten ton pile of Bull Manure, as impressive it might seem, it's still a pile of bull manure.
According to you, freemasonry has somehow magicly escaped one of the very basic principles of Society of itself. Bologna. No hierarchy in freemasonry... yeah. It appears as though we have reached an impasse with this discussion, and I can't argue this point with somebody that says there is no hierarchy, then in the same breath says there is. That's called spin fellers.

DUDE, ARE YOU EVEN READING WHAT WE POST!?!?!?

For the LAST time, we are tellling you that MASONIC DEGREES have no hirearchy!

Freemasonry has an administrative hirearchy. Lodges and lodge officers DO, but NOT by DEGREES. Degrees don't factor into the hirearchy in any way at all! There is NO HIREARCHY AMONG MASONIC DEGREES.

Sheesh! :bnghd:


[edit on 26-5-2005 by sebatwerk]

Originally posted by sebatwerk
DUDE, ARE YOU EVEN READING WHAT WE POST!?!?!?

For the LAST time, we are tellling you that MASONIC DEGREES have no hirearchy!

Freemasonry has an administrative hirearchy. Lodges and lodge officers DO, but NOT by DEGREES. Degrees don't factor into the hirearchy in any way at all! There is NO HIREARCHY AMONG MASONIC DEGREES.
[edit on 26-5-2005 by sebatwerk]

Ah yes, word play.. I too can play with words, lets take a look at your post, but let's drop the word degree and words assosciated with degrees as I have been trying to do for three of four posts now...

Originally posted by sebatwerk
DUDE, ARE YOU EVEN READING WHAT WE POST!?!?!?

For the LAST time, we are tellling you that .... no hirearchy!

Freemasonry has an administrative hirearchy. Lodges and lodge officers DO, ... don't factor into the hirearchy in any way at all! There is NO HIREARCHY....

I'm an ex-Lit Major and I can play word games all day with you, if you like i can post in well metered Iambic Pentameters to make allgegorical references to bull manure calling your bluff, and it isn't going to change the fact that you answer to higher ups in your fraternity. I don't give a damn what degree you are, you are not Grand Poobah, are you?

Originally posted by twitchy
Ah yes, word play.. I too can play with words, lets take a look at your post, but let's drop the word degree and words assosciated with degrees as I have been trying to do for three of four posts now...

You have tried to do no such thing. From the very beginning, you stated that masonic degrees were what defined authority in the fraternity. And from the very beginning, I told you that you were wrong. And by the way, it is YOU who is playing word games and quoting me out of context... again.

I'm an ex-Lit Major and I can play word games all day with you, if you like i can post in well metered Iambic Pentameters to make allgegorical references to bull manure calling your bluff, and it isn't going to change the fact that you answer to higher ups in your fraternity. I don't give a damn what degree you are, you are not Grand Poobah, are you?

I could give a crap what your college major was, you still don't know a damn thing about Freemasonry. And, no, I don't answer to ANYONE in the fraternity, because I am just a member, and I have no purpose or position in the fraternity other than self-improvement. Once I become an officer, next year, then I will have to answer to the officers in the positions above mine. This will only be for administrative purposes, though.



[edit on 26-5-2005 by sebatwerk]

One of the primary tenants of freemasons is that "we meet on the leval". In other words, all master masons are EQUAL. Therefore there can never be any hierarchry. It is not a matter of luck it is a matter of intent.

This is stated at every meeting, emphasized in every degree, tought in every lodge.

Every mason on this board has and will state repeatedly that th scottish rite, the york rite and the shrine are "APPENDENT" bodies. In other words seperate orginisations. Granted you have to be a mason to join them, but they are seperate orginisations and are NOT part of freemasonry.

FREEMASONRY IS THE FIRST THREE DEGREES, ONLY!

Forget the handshake !

So what if that's a secret or not ? Big Deal- So it's a bunch of old guys that like to pretend that they are still in the boy scouts.

Lets move to something more interesting like: Why do the masons have occultic symbols intertwined in there belief system ? I don't believe that most masons think twice about this. And why should they ? They sure are not spreading the word of GOD !

Hope to get some feedback ! This is always a fun topic !!

By the way, before any one tries and take my worthy brother's comments out of context to prove their point. There is one point that needs to be brought up about lodge offices, and lodge officers

The master of the lodge is answerable to the lodge membership, and the grand master. The grand master is answerable to the membership. If at any point either one can be removed immediately by the member masons, how can there be a hierarchy?

Although, neither is a commin occurance. But the procedure is there if it ever becomes necessary.

Here you guys is the link to my poem entitled 33. I hope everyone likes it.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by Truthisoutthere
So what if that's a secret or not ? Big Deal- So it's a bunch of old guys that like to pretend that they are still in the boy scouts.

But I thought you said that masons were secretive and shady? Now that you find out it's not true, forget about it? Gee, I sure am glad you can admit you were mistaken.

Lets move to something more interesting like: Why do the masons have occultic symbols intertwined in there belief system ? I don't believe that most masons think twice about this. And why should they ? They sure are not spreading the word of GOD !

And you're telling me that Christianity doesn't have occult symbols intertwined in its belief system? Don't be a hypocrite. By the way, Freemasonry is not a belief system. Freemasonry is simply an organization that teaches a man to follow his own individual faith, whatever it may be.

As for spreading the word of God, I doubt you even have a basic understanding of what the true word of God is, so spare us your sermons. I have no interest in hearing about the hypocrisy of Christian values and undisputable "truths".


[edit on 26-5-2005 by sebatwerk]

Originally posted by CPYKOmega
Here you guys is the link to my poem entitled 33. I hope everyone likes it.

I'd like your poem if it had at least a bit of truth to it. The fact of the matter is that receiving the 33rd degree is no different than receiving a medal in the military. It doesn't change your rank or authority, it is merely an honor bestowed on you for excellent service to the organization.

"The mighty, the few"... come on man, seriously. Do you have any idea just how many 33rd degree masons there are in the US!?!?!? If you ever go to a Scottish Rite reunion, there's "White caps" all over the place, and they are all old withered retirees who don't do much at all anymore. They certainly have no more authority in the fraternity than I do, or any other member for that matter.

It's amazing to me that SO MANY people can have SO MANY misconceptions about Freemasonry, when there's SO MUCH accurate, truthful and legitimate information available for EVERYONE to learn from.

:bnghd:


[edit on 26-5-2005 by sebatwerk]

Originally posted by CPYKOmega
Here you guys is the link to my poem entitled 33. I hope everyone likes it.

And here's a poem for you, I just wrote it. You inspired me.

"Forum"
by The Axeman

So many trollers here
So quick to judge
So many sheep
Who need naught but a nudge

So many fibbers here
So quick to lie
So many folks
Who won't open their eyes

So many haters here
So quick to say
"So many lost souls,
Mine is the only Way!"

So many ignorants
So much to learn
So many teaching
Just get cursed in return

I hope you like it as well.

[edit on 5/27/05 by The Axeman]

You guys wouldn't know poetry if it bit you in the ass.

Originally posted by CPYKOmega
You guys wouldn't know poetry if it bit you in the ass.

And you wouldn't see the truth if it hit you in the face. Point?

By the way, Axeman: EXCELLENT poem. Excellent, because it's accurate. No particular talent for words, but apparently that doesn't matter around here.

[edit on 27-5-2005 by sebatwerk]

as if youre here to spread the truth....

point?


uh uh i have a poem for you masons:

roses are red,
violets are blue,
your masters are evil
and so are you



[edit on 27-5-2005 by nukunuku]

Originally posted by nukunuku
roses are red,
violets are blue,
your masters are evil
and so are you

Gosh, you're clever! Did your mommy write that for you? Or did you stay up all night yourself to put that abortion together? Why don't you leave these adult conversations for us grown men, and go play in one of the kid's forums or something?

Here, click on the shiny red text:

www.tvtome.com...


[edit on 27-5-2005 by sebatwerk]

Originally posted by sebatwerk

Originally posted by nukunuku
roses are red,
violets are blue,
your masters are evil
and so are you

Gosh, you're clever! Did your mommy write that for you? Or did you stay up all night yourself to put that abortion together?

Well...... what does your experience with writing poetry tell you ?



sebat, youre making this too easy....

I'll bet Captain Morgan liked poetry. He seemed to grasp the hierarchy pretty well in his later life eh?.
www.google.com...

Originally posted by nukunuku
sebat, youre making this too easy....

Quit trying to sound like you're so slick. You don't even know what you're referring to when you saying I'm making "this" too easy, so spare me the childish adage.