"Masonic" Handshakes and Other Nonsense...

Originally posted by sebatwerk
Again: stop trying to turn the subject of this discussion into Christianity. It is about Freemasonry. Stick to the topic!

Now Seb, it's OK. He IS on-topic. The title of the thread is "Masonic Handshakes . . . AND OTHER NONSENSE!"

I'd say the last several pages of posts fall into the "other nonsense" category, wouldn't you?



There's no progress on this thread...just "yes I am" "no you're not" "yes I am" "no you're not" Another peculiarity of fundamentalist whack-o's is they LOVE to debate....intelligently or otherwise.

Regards

Originally posted by Truthisoutthere
... and ended up crucifing Him for stating that He was the messiah. We have told you repeatedly that He is the only way and you have said we are crazy and fools.

Just out of curiosity, are you aware that Jesus Christ did not fulfill most of the requirements of the Jewish Bible for the messiah? Those conditions are, in case you're not aware:

1). Must be Jewish (Deuteronomy 17:15)
2). Must be a member of the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10)
3). Must be a direct male descendant of King David and King Solomon (2 Samuel 7:12 - 13)
4). Must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel (Isaiah 11:12)
5). Must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem (Ezekiel 37:26 - 27)
6). Will rule at a time of world-wide peace (Micah 4:3)
7). Will rule at a time when the Jewish people will observe God's commandments (Ezekiel 37:24)
8). Will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serve one God (Isaiah 66:23)

All of this is summed up nicely in Ezekiel Chapter 37 verses 24-28:

And David my servant shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. they shall also follow My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Yaakov my servant, in which your fathers have dwelt and they shall dwell there, they and their children, and their children's children forever; and my servant David shall be their prince forever. Moreover, I will make a covenant of peace with them, it shall be an everlasting covenant with them, which I will give them; and I will multiply them and I will set my sanctuary in the midst of them forevermore. And my tabernacle shall be with them: and I will be their God and they will be my people. Then the nations shall know that I am the Lord who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary will be in the midst of them forevermore.

Now that I've given you 8 criteria for the messiah, how does Jesus stack up?

1). OK - he was Jewish!
2). To be a member of Judah, he would have to have a biological father who is a member of the tribe of Judah. According to the "New Testament", Jesus was born to a virgin woman, so he does not qualify.
3). The geneologies in the "New Testament" are not consistent; also since he has no biological father, it further complicates things. Therefore, he does not qualify.
4). Not all Jews live in Israel. Fail.
5). The Temple has not been rebuilt. Fail.
6). World peace? Look at Iraq for one. Fail.
7). Not all Jews follow all of God's laws at the present time. Futhermore, Christianity dicourages practice of all of God's commandments. Fail.
8). There are many, many people who are atheist or polytheistic in the modern world. Fail.

So, as you can see, Jesus can be said to have only fulfilled ONE of the requirements of being the Jewish messiah. Also, no where in the Jewish Bible does it say that the messiah will be anything other than an EARTHLY king - a regular man! Not someone who is born of a virgin (which is a concept borrowed from Paganism, by the way!) It also does NOT say that people will pray to the messiah (in fact, praying to a man is a SIN).

Apologies to REASONABLE Christians.

Originally posted by gps777
what light is there that exists that can bring you out of darkness more than the light you should have already recieved?

The light by which masons work is the light of understanding and knowledge, not the light of salvation. It is the understanding and knowledge that we should all strive to become better men in the eyes of our neighbors, our families, ourselves and our Lord, by being charitable, faithful, honorable and loving. I don't see how this could possiby be a bad thing.

this is a big sticking point with me that is Why cant a Christian Mason and myself agree,when i can with most other Christians?

Because you have already accused us masons of not being true Christians! So if you see us as not being Christians, how do you expect to meet us on that level? You have already made your mind up about Christian Freemasons, so I don't understand why you're so confused by this.

Originally posted by gps777

Axe, Gods word its appropriate, i liked it

i know you wanted Truth to answer but would like to add my 2 cents.

Thanks for your reply dude. Not surprisingly, and true to form, our good pal TIOT has chosen to ignore my post in which I am trying to intelligently and civilly discuss the issue...

I even did what he asked (I have no idea why) and played his game of using the Bible to back me up, but of course I have made valid and lucid points that don't fit into his bubble, so he will ignore me, or post a few lines saying I am attacking him or refusing to discuss. The longer this goes on, the sicker it makes me.

[edit on 6/10/05 by The Axeman]

Originally posted by JustMe74

Originally posted by Truthisoutthere
... and ended up crucifing Him for stating that He was the messiah. We have told you repeatedly that He is the only way and you have said we are crazy and fools.

Just out of curiosity, are you aware that Jesus Christ did not fulfill most of the requirements of the Jewish Bible for the messiah? Those conditions are, in case you're not aware:

1). Must be Jewish (Deuteronomy 17:15)
2). Must be a member of the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10)
3). Must be a direct male descendant of King David and King Solomon (2 Samuel 7:12 - 13)
4). Must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel (Isaiah 11:12)
5). Must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem (Ezekiel 37:26 - 27)
6). Will rule at a time of world-wide peace (Micah 4:3)
7). Will rule at a time when the Jewish people will observe God's commandments (Ezekiel 37:24)
8). Will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serve one God (Isaiah 66:23)

All of this is summed up nicely in Ezekiel Chapter 37 verses 24-28:

And David my servant shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. they shall also follow My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Yaakov my servant, in which your fathers have dwelt and they shall dwell there, they and their children, and their children's children forever; and my servant David shall be their prince forever. Moreover, I will make a covenant of peace with them, it shall be an everlasting covenant with them, which I will give them; and I will multiply them and I will set my sanctuary in the midst of them forevermore. And my tabernacle shall be with them: and I will be their God and they will be my people. Then the nations shall know that I am the Lord who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary will be in the midst of them forevermore.

Now that I've given you 8 criteria for the messiah, how does Jesus stack up?

1). OK - he was Jewish!
2). To be a member of Judah, he would have to have a biological father who is a member of the tribe of Judah. According to the "New Testament", Jesus was born to a virgin woman, so he does not qualify.
3). The geneologies in the "New Testament" are not consistent; also since he has no biological father, it further complicates things. Therefore, he does not qualify.
4). Not all Jews live in Israel. Fail.
5). The Temple has not been rebuilt. Fail.
6). World peace? Look at Iraq for one. Fail.
7). Not all Jews follow all of God's laws at the present time. Futhermore, Christianity dicourages practice of all of God's commandments. Fail.
8). There are many, many people who are atheist or polytheistic in the modern world. Fail.

So, as you can see, Jesus can be said to have only fulfilled ONE of the requirements of being the Jewish messiah. Also, no where in the Jewish Bible does it say that the messiah will be anything other than an EARTHLY king - a regular man! Not someone who is born of a virgin (which is a concept borrowed from Paganism, by the way!) It also does NOT say that people will pray to the messiah (in fact, praying to a man is a SIN).

Apologies to REASONABLE Christians.

No reason to apologize brother- For the Jewish faith has never accepted the fact that Jesus is the messiah and that is no secret.

Your view on just the prophecies alone are very subjective.
Should I go ahead and list the 200 prophesies that have been fulfilled by the Christ ? That you forgot to mention ?

God has NOT YET failed to fulfill any of HIS prophecies yet ?
Does he still have a few to fulfill ? Yes ?

Do you not realize that the Jewish were also there condeming Christ to the cross along with the romans ! They were called Pharisees. Do you follow the same faith as they ? If so- I can understand why you do not believe that Christ is the messiah.

In any regard if you would like to continue this discussion we need to take it to the right forum to respect the Masonry Thread. Christian Conspiracy-
Let me know if you would like to discuss further. And if not. I completley understand as I have Christain Brothers from the Jewish Faith.

Truth !

Originally posted by Truthisoutthere
No reason to apologize brother- For the Jewish faith has never accepted the fact that Jesus is the messiah and that is no secret.

Your view on just the prophecies alone are very subjective.
Should I go ahead and list the 200 prophesies that have been fulfilled by the Christ ? That you forgot to mention ?

God has NOT YET failed to fulfill any of HIS prophecies yet ?
Does he still have a few to fulfill ? Yes ?

Do you not realize that the Jewish were also there condeming Christ to the cross along with the romans ! They were called Pharisees. Do you follow the same faith as they ? If so- I can understand why you do not believe that Christ is the messiah.

In any regard if you would like to continue this discussion we need to take it to the right forum to respect the Masonry Thread. Christian Conspiracy-
Let me know if you would like to discuss further. And if not. I completley understand as I have Christain Brothers from the Jewish Faith.

Truth !

Exactly what I expected. TIOT, you really aren't very good at this whole discussion thing, are you? I did what you asked, now you choose not to reply. Why?

At the risk of being redundandt:

Originally posted by The Axeman

Here's a snippet though, that I thought was appropriate.

John 12:44 Jesus then raising his voice, said: "Let the believer in me not believe on Me, but rather on My Sender; 45 then whoever sees Me will see My Sender. 46 I have come a Light into the world; so that everyone believing in Me may not continue in the darkness. 47 And if anyone should hear My statements, and fail to observe them, I do not condemn him; because I do not come to the world to condemn the world, but so that I might save the world. 48 Whoever rejects Me, and will not accept my declarations, is self condemned; The message which I declared will itself convict him at the last day. 49 For I have not spoken of Myself; but The Father Himself Who sent Me has given Me an order, what I should declare, and what I should publish. 50 And I know that His order is life eternal. Whatever I therefore say, I say it in accordance with The Father's instruction to Me."

John 14:1 "Do not allow your hearts to be troubled. Trust in God, and trust in Me. 2 In the home of My Father there are many abodes. If it were not so, I would have told you; because I am going to prepare a place for you..." 14:6 "I am the way, the Truth, and the Life," Jesus answered him; "no one can come to The Father except through Me..."

John 13:34 I give you a new command, THAT YOU LOVE ONE ANOTHER: just as I have loved you, in the same way you ought to love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love to one another."

John 14:21 "Whoever keeps My commands, and regards them, he it is who loves Me; and the ones who love Me will be loved by My Father; And I will love him, and will make Myself known to him."

So what this says to me, in my Christian opinion, is that Jesus taught lessons and principles. These lessons and principles are all respected and practiced across the board as far as religion goes. Most monotheistic religions teach the same lessons. So, if a man lives his life according to Jesus' rules (no matter what religion he is or how he learned the rules, or who taught him) and keeps the commands of Jesus, Jesus says He will "make Myself known to him" by virtue of which (ostensibly) that person, even if he is of a different faith, if he lives a good life according to what Jesus taught, he will be saved; in other words Jesus will "make Himself known to him." If The Lord says that "No one can come to The Father except through Me," wouldn't this man then be accepted by Jesus, who specifically says "the message which I declared will itself convict him on the last day" (implying that whosoever does not follow the message itself will be condemned)?

Something to think about...

This still has nothing to do with the fact that there is no "Masonic God" and Christian Masons are still followers of Christ; affiliation with a fraternity has nothing to do with their individual faiths.

Just in case you missed it...

Waiting on you, TIOT. You opened this can of worms, not me. Are you going to be a man or are you going to ignore me like a stubborn little kid?

Again, thanks gps777 for taking the time to reply, even though you don't necessarily agree.

*listens to the "Jeopardy!" tune while waiting for TIOT's response*


[edit on 6/10/05 by The Axeman]

Originally posted by The Axeman

*listens to the "Jeopardy!" tune while waiting for TIOT's response*

Here you go:

easymidisite.tripod.com...

OY !

I have only tried to show you in many different ways the differences between the God of Christianity and the God of Freemasonry. Our theologies on Christ are completely different. You don't seem to understand that the God of Christianity according to HIS WORDS not mine does not accept other Gods in His Name. Whether you believe Masonry does this or not ? It does.

Lets just say that we agree to disagree about this issue. For some reason we have not proven the point to eachother. That's ok. Maybe another time another place. Maybe this is the last chance you will ever hear these Words ? I don't know. Only God knows.

But arguing, name calling and finger pointing is not the way and WE ARE ALLL GUILTY OF THIS.

It's a very critical and emotional topic when a christian hears that he might not go to heaven because of one thing or another in his life. It's completley understandable.

On the other hand Christ has told ( Christians ) to point these things out to one another ( Not Judging ) but (pointing out sin ) so that the other brother or sister repents and doesn't fall victim to his own sin.

Regardless-Of our views and differences I hope the best for you all.

Have Fun- And seek the Truth-Whatever that might mean for you.

Truth !

Originally posted by Truthisoutthere
Whether you believe Masonry does this or not ? It does.

For the LAST time: YOU ARE IN NO POSITION TO BE ABLE TO CLAIM THIS, BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT A MASON AND THEREFORE YOU CANNOT POSSIBLY KNOW!!!!!

Your truth is not THE truth.

[edit on 10-6-2005 by sebatwerk]

Truth, you're hopeless.

"Let all mine enemies be ashamed and sore vexed: let them return and be ashamed suddenly"

Would you like a tissue to go with that drivel ?

ITS'S OVER GUYS !! FOGET ABOUT IT !! ITS OK !!! REALLY !! ITS OVER!!!

MOVE ON !! GET ON WITH WHAT IT IS YOU DO !!!! WHATEVER THAT MAYBE ????? AND THAT IS OK TOO !! REALLY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! IT DOESN'T AND SHOULDN'T MATTER WHAT I THINK ???? MOVE ON !!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

--------------------ENOUGH OF THIS FUN ALREADY------------------------------------

IPTUSTTSD !!

Truth

Originally posted by Truthisoutthere
Would you like a tissue to go with that drivel ?

ITS'S OVER GUYS !! FOGET ABOUT IT !! ITS OK !!! REALLY !! ITS OVER!!!

MOVE ON !! GET ON WITH WHAT IT IS YOU DO !!!! WHATEVER THAT MAYBE ????? AND THAT IS OK TOO !! REALLY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! IT DOESN'T AND SHOULDN'T MATTER WHAT I THINK ???? MOVE ON !!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

--------------------ENOUGH OF THIS FUN ALREADY------------------------------------

IPTUSTTSD !!

Truth

Huh? There is a little reallity here? I don't see it.

Huh? There is a little reallity here? I don't see it.

a little too ironic i might say so myself !!

Somtimes you just got to sit back and laugh and wonder ?

Originally posted by Truthisoutthere
Somtimes you just got to sit back and laugh and wonder ?

Ok? I'm not getting it.

Would you like a tissue to go with that drivel ?

ITS'S OVER GUYS !! FOGET ABOUT IT !! ITS OK !!! REALLY !! ITS OVER!!!

MOVE ON !! GET ON WITH WHAT IT IS YOU DO !!!! WHATEVER THAT MAYBE ????? AND THAT IS OK TOO !! REALLY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! IT DOESN'T AND SHOULDN'T MATTER WHAT I THINK ???? MOVE ON !!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

--------------------ENOUGH OF THIS FUN ALREADY------------------------------------

IPTUSTTSD !!

Truth

Okay man, close your eyes and breathe.

Originally posted by Truthisoutthere
No reason to apologize brother- For the Jewish faith has never accepted the fact that Jesus is the messiah and that is no secret.

Obviously.

Originally posted by Truthisoutthere
Should I go ahead and list the 200 prophesies that have been fulfilled by the Christ ? That you forgot to mention ?

You can try... if they exist!

Originally posted by Truthisoutthere
Do you not realize that the Jewish were also there condeming Christ to the cross along with the romans ! They were called Pharisees. Do you follow the same faith as they ? If so- I can understand why you do not believe that Christ is the messiah.

I guess if you follow the religion of Paul, that makes sense. The NT is a polemic against the Pharisees. Read outside of the historical context, you would get that impression, yes.

Originally posted by Truthisoutthere
In any regard if you would like to continue this discussion we need to take it to the right forum to respect the Masonry Thread. Christian Conspiracy-
Let me know if you would like to discuss further.

I'll debate you anytime, anywhere. However, I should warn you... debating scripture with a religious Jew is a difficult thing to do, as your understanding of the Jewish Bible is likely only rudimentary and probably based on flawed translations from Hebrew -> Greek -> English.

Originally posted by Truthisoutthere
And if not. I completley understand as I have Christain Brothers from the Jewish Faith.

If they're Christian Brothers, they are not Jewish.

By the way.. my only point for the initial post was to dish out a little of your own medicine to you. You are very prepared to critisize everyone elses' beliefs... can you defend your own? Should you have to? Think about that.

Originally posted by Truthisoutthere
IT DOESN'T AND SHOULDN'T MATTER WHAT I THINK

WOW, truth,

You FINALLY posted something that makes sense.

It really DOESN'T matter what you think.

However, I'll make you a deal. I'm guessing from your posts that I'm older than you, so I'll likely die before you do.

Here's the "deal" Someday when you die and get to Heaven....look around. I'll be there!

..pointing at him and saying "I told you so!"

Let the record show that TIOT has completely and totally ignored my posts, which I specifically authored because he asked me to use scripture to back up my point.

Dude, you need to take a long, hard look in the mirror before preaching to anyone about being a "true Christian".

The fact that you have ignored my posts is indicative of the type of man you are.

I honestly and truly pity you.

Let the record show that TIOT has completely and totally ignored my posts, which I specifically authored because he asked me to use scripture to back up my point.

Dude, you need to take a long, hard look in the mirror before preaching to anyone about being a "true Christian".

The fact that you have ignored my posts is indicative of the type of man you are.

I honestly and truly pity you.

Like your signature says Axe, ignoring facts does not change facts.


I don't see how TIOT thinks hitting and running away made his argument any better.