"Masonic" Handshakes and Other Nonsense...

Originally posted by sebatwerk

Originally posted by Truthisoutthere
You are the one that said you were a christian !

So why wouldn't you use the Bible to back up your faith ?

My faith is not on trial here, your claims against Freemasonry are!

My faith is NOT the topic of this discussion. There is no problem with my faith whatsoever. The problem here is that YOU think Freemasons do something that they absolutely dont do.

Don't try to turn this conversation into a fundie discussion!

So again I ask you: why would I need to use the Bible to back up my claims? The bible does not apply.

[edit on 10-6-2005 by sebatwerk]

Your Faith is on Trial ! If you say that you are a christian, I am telling you that you are NOT if you are a Mason.

Originally posted by gps777
Seb i thought that it was customary or more so gentllemenly to say that you are wrong when proven not that you need to appoligise to me but to Truthisoutthere would be big of you, afterall if you were truly a Christian is`nt he suppossed to be your brother,and as a brother is`nt he giving you the best advice for you?which he has

I've done my best to understand what you wrote above. You're out of your mind. What exactly do you feel I need to apologize for?

And by the way: nobody who is intolerant of other people, because of their beliefs, is my brother.

[edit on 10-6-2005 by sebatwerk]

Originally posted by Truthisoutthere
Your Faith is on Trial ! If you say that you are a christian, I am telling you that you are NOT if you are a Mason.

Which brings us back to the original discussion: Freemasonry! Not my faith. :bnghd:

This is just becoming sick...

Truth, you have no sort of business using His word as a weapon.

How DARE you accuse Seb and other Masons of abandoning their faith for this "god" you continuously speak of.



"Whoso privily slandereth his neighbor, him I will cut off; him that hath an high look and a proud heart will not I suffer" (Bible verse Psalm 101:5).

Exedus

"Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour." 20:16

"Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt. 22:21

Levictus

"Thou shalt not defraud your neighbor, neither rob him." 19:13


"Love thy neighbor as thyself." 19:18



I think some of you guys (Truth and his little sidekick) can relate to this.

Proverbs

"He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him." 18:13








[edit on 10-6-2005 by Majestic12]

Originally posted by Majestic12
Truth, you have no sort of business using His word as a weapon.

How DARE you accuse Seb and other Masons of abandoning their faith for this "god" you continuously speak of.

This is a typical fundamentalist tactic and does nothing to further the discussion.

Originally posted by sebatwerk

Originally posted by gps777
Seb i thought that it was customary or more so gentllemenly to say that you are wrong when proven not that you need to appoligise to me but to Truthisoutthere would be big of you, afterall if you were truly a Christian is`nt he suppossed to be your brother,and as a brother is`nt he giving you the best advice for you?which he has

I've done my best to understand what you wrote above. You're out of your mind. What exactly do you feel I need to apologize for?

Ok to go over it again,you were asked if you can back up your faith using Gods words,you gave a bogus verse which i proved,then i waited, and you gave no appollogy or acknowledgement that you gave a serverly flawed answer to Mr Truths question.so if that verse you gave is which you allow yourself to continue being a mason and beleive your a Christian you have been proven completely wrong.

Originally posted by gps777
Ok to go over it again,you were asked if you can back up your faith using Gods words,you gave a bogus verse which i proved,then i waited, and you gave no appollogy or acknowledgement that you gave a serverly flawed answer to Mr Truths question.so if that verse you gave is which you allow yourself to continue being a mason and beleive your a Christian you have been proven completely wrong.

Why do I need to apologize for thinking the verse meant something else? I owe you and truth no apology whatsoever, so spare me your fundamentalist B.S. I don't need to justify my masonic membership with any Bible verse, and it sickens me that the two of you would try and use God's word as a weapon to insult and denigrate. Shame on the both of you.


[edit on 10-6-2005 by sebatwerk]

Indeed, and His word is supposed to:

"Comfort in time of lonliness, offer relief in time of suffering, offer guidance in time of decision, protection in time of danger, courage in time of fear, peace in time of turmoil, rest in time of weariness, and strength in time of temptation..."

- From my Holy Bible placed by the Gideons International

So you continue to deflect your answers ???????

like I said about a hundred times. We have shown you the light so to speak about the difference in your god and ours and you wish to ignore. Or are incabable of understanding ?? I am not sure which and frankly I really don't care !

And as far as AXE is concerned with his random versus taht he throws out ?

Why ? What for ? with the scriptures that you chose to throw out ? They have no relevance at all ? Especially coming from a NON-CHRISTIAN !

Try again !

No relevance? My God are you blind?!

Originally posted by Truthisoutthere
like I said about a hundred times. We have shown you the light so to speak about the difference in your god and ours and you wish to ignore. Or are incabable of understanding ?? I am not sure which and frankly I really don't care !

Whatever man. It's pointless arguing this with you. I'm done.

And as far as AXE is concerned... Especially coming from a NON-CHRISTIAN !

A non-christian because you think he's a mason (which he is not)? You have absolutely no shame at all, do you? What makes you think you're even in a position to judge, much less decide what is and what isn't Christian??? You're absolutely pathetic, and you give Christians a bad name. You are exactly why people hate fundamentalists, you can't cease from criticizing others without looking at yourself. If a Christian is supposed to be someone like YOU, I want nothing to do with Christianity.

I see TOIT has 'phoned a friend'. The more the merrier, right? Couldn't get anywhere on your own, right?

It is quite clear to me that these fundamentalists, innocently or not, are engaging in the work of the devil. I've come to the conclusion, reluctantly, that nothing positive can be gained from discussion with them.

1 Peter 5:7-9 (New International Version)
Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that your brothers throughout the world are undergoing the same kind of sufferings.

Show me in what context for each verse and apply to what I said. Then will talk.

Do you think that Christ never got angry and frustrated with the people ? He was a man that experienced every emotion and feeling that we have.

He(Christ) bled his heart out for you and I. It was people like you that turned away and thought HE was a fool and was crazy and ended up crucifing Him for stating that He was the messiah. We have told you repeatedly that He is the only way and you have said we are crazy and fools.

Funny how history repeats itself !

That verse speaks truth, Trinityman.

Shame on us for what?for exposing someone who says they are a Christian but is`nt.

The weapon is a sword and its Gods word a comfort to them who are for God,but a killing tool to those that are outside of his word and need to get back with him.Kind of like die to self and live Gods word,just pointing it out seb because thats what true love is.If you were`nt important to him you would`nt have been told.

I serverly dont wish to offend and its very easy to offend on such a serious topic but it needed to be said

here`s a link of other ex masons for God who did`nt get offended but saw the truth

www.fish4masons.org...

Wow, I see that you get your information from such great (crappy) sources...







[edit on 10-6-2005 by Majestic12]

Originally posted by Truthisoutthere
We have told you repeatedly that He is the only way and you have said we are crazy and fools.

Oh please!!! We did no such thing! You have such selective memory that it's disturbing! We have told you that you are crazy for not beinng able to understand the simple truth about Freemasonry.

Again: stop trying to turn the subject of this discussion into Christianity. It is about Freemasonry. Stick to the topic!

Originally posted by gps777
Shame on us for what?for exposing someone who says they are a Christian but is`nt.

I will say it one more time: you are in NO position to judge me. You are in NO position to tell me that I am or am not a Christian. You never will be. It is very unbecoming of you to attempt to judge another. The only one who may judge me and my faith is God, so save your breath.

Now: stop trying to turn the subject of this discussion into Christianity. It is about Freemasonry. Stick to the topic!

[edit on 10-6-2005 by sebatwerk]

Originally posted by Truthisoutthere

And as far as AXE is concerned with his random versus taht he throws out ?

Why ? What for ? with the scriptures that you chose to throw out ? They have no relevance at all ? Especially coming from a NON-CHRISTIAN !

Again, I think you are confusing me with someone else... I haven't posted any random verses. Perhaps the black background and round avatar are throwing you off.

Here's a snippet though, that I thought was appropriate.

John 12:44 Jesus then raising his voice, said: "Let the believer in me not believe on Me, but rather on My Sender; 45 then whoever sees Me will see My Sender. 46 I have come a Light into the world; so that everyone believing in Me may not continue in the darkness. 47 And if anyone should hear My statements, and fail to observe them, I do not condemn him; because I do not come to the world to condemn the world, but so that I might save the world. 48 Whoever rejects Me, and will not accept my declarations, is self condemned; The message which I declared will itself convict him at the last day. 49 For I have not spoken of Myself; but The Father Himself Who sent Me has given Me an order, what I should declare, and what I should publish. 50 And I know that His order is life eternal. Whatever I therefore say, I say it in accordance with The Father's instruction to Me."

John 14:1 "Do not allow your hearts to be troubled. Trust in God, and trust in Me. 2 In the home of My Father there are many abodes. If it were not so, I would have told you; because I am going to prepare a place for you..." 14:6 "I am the way, the Truth, and the Life," Jesus answered him; "no one can come to The Father except through Me..."

John 13:34 I give you a new command, THAT YOU LOVE ONE ANOTHER: just as I have loved you, in the same way you ought to love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love to one another."

John 14:21 "Whoever keeps My commands, and regards them, he it is who loves Me; and the ones who love Me will be loved by My Father; And I will love him, and will make Myself known to him."

So what this says to me, in my Christian opinion, is that Jesus taught lessons and principles. These lessons and principles are all respected and practiced across the board as far as religion goes. Most monotheistic religions teach the same lessons. So, if a man lives his life according to Jesus' rules (no matter what religion he is or how he learned the rules, or who taught him) and keeps the commands of Jesus, Jesus says He will "make Myself known to him" by virtue of which (ostensibly) that person, even if he is of a different faith, if he lives a good life according to what Jesus taught, he will be saved; in other words Jesus will "make Himself known to him." If The Lord says that "No one can come to The Father except through Me," wouldn't this man then be accepted by Jesus, who specifically says "the message which I declared will itself convict him on the last day" (implying that whosoever does not follow the message itself will be condemned)?

Something to think about...

This still has nothing to do with the fact that there is no "Masonic God" and Christian Masons are still followers of Christ; affiliation with a fraternity has nothing to do with their individual faiths.

[edit on 6/10/05 by The Axeman]

Originally posted by sebatwerk

Originally posted by gps777
Shame on us for what?for exposing someone who says they are a Christian but is`nt.

I will say it one more time: you are in NO position to judge me. You are in NO position to tell me that I am or am not a Christian. You never will be. It is very unbecoming of you to attempt to judge another. The only one who may judge me and my faith is God, so save your breath.

Now: stop trying to turn the subject of this discussion into Christianity. It is about Freemasonry. Stick to the topic!

[edit on 10-6-2005 by sebatwerk]

Seb i`m not sure if you were a Christian before becoming a Mason,but if i was to the understanding that Freemasonry was just a frat and i decided to join,correct me if i`m wrong, when your being intiated into the first degree you are told something like you were once in the darkness now come into the light?if thats right?that would be enough right there for me to get out straight away,because being a Christian i had already recieved the one true light and thats Christ,what light is there that exists that can bring you out of darkness more than the light you should have already recieved?other than what your pastor,minister can help you with understanding Christs word.

If i was deceived in the world in anyway, i hope true Christians would help me back, thats all i`m getting at.

Axe, Gods word its appropriate, i liked it

i know you wanted Truth to answer but would like to add my 2 cents.

It`s to easy just to say that us fundies (if thats what you want to label us with?i simply concider myself and others as Christian)that we are just condeming everyone who dose`nt see it our way, rather than its a warning of future judgement brought about by God not us,and correct me if i`ve misunderstood what you getting at,are you saying that Christians should just leave everybody and not spread the gospel and leave everybody alone and let them come to the conclusion themselves that the only way to God is through Jesus?if so your mistaken thats not what is required of us to be a Christian.We are supposed to be warriors for God and spread his word,and love the person and hate the sin.

If your saying Jesus did`nt judge your incorrect,he judged correctly.i wont throw verses to prove this, on many occasions he did.If you want me to i will give you verses.Its Christs message and life that should be followed not a pagan Gods and to just hope that they finnally wake up that Christ is the way is not what a Christian is, why not just save them the trouble and point the way,they will have a better chance knowing Christ in the first place would you agree.

Other than that i did like your post overall, at least you thought about it IMO,i just disagree with your interpritation and veiw that you can somehow come to Christ without even hearing about him because i disagree that all religions are basically all the same thats where we differ maybe one day we wont.Someone more educated in other religions would be better to speak about that than myself.I`m more than happy being a biased Christian,when your with the best forget the rest.Before anyone jumps on that remark as being ignorant, when you said axe, that if anyone keeping Christs principles will lead him to God eventually,if i already have found him what use are other religions to me.

To say you have twisted the verses to suit your interpitation of all religions are all Christs principles would sound very harsh,in a way thats what you have done how ever i do believe you believe it,thats where our faiths differ.

There are some really great Christian on ats,and i can recognise a true Christian within a few lines of what they write the majority of the time,i dont mean that as a boast more so that birds of a feather flock etc,just like masons do with each other,which puzzles me with the so called Christian Masons because i have no connection with them at all?.that alone strengthens my personal beleif about them.If your for Christ then why are you arguing with everything we say?they dont say yes your correct here and wrong here and back it with Gods word correctly we are just totaly wrong full stop.Then you wonder why people have bad impressions of you.Let alone delve into the heavy stuff that your accused off being involved with.Masons here may say we are stupid thick fools etc,but this is a big sticking point with me that is Why cant a Christian Mason and myself agree,when i can with most other Christians?

SO around we all go,it could be argued thats exactly what you want to happen,to muddy the water so you can carry on with the occult,quite frankly i could care less what you get up to or who you pray to so long as you know what your actually doing,in the end we will all meet the maker and be judged,but to say in end you did`nt know because you were`nt told is not an excuse you can use.

I also beleive there are alot of other organisation`s that are hell bent some are churchs to lead people astray they change the Book they change Gods word,do i beleive that all that belong to them know that their hell bent No i dont, thats the sad thing about it.thats where us fundies come into it,do we think we can save the world NO many are called few are chosen.To say that we are without sin would be a lie as you know,we simply trust in Gods word and toss aside that which is ungodly in our lives when God deals with those areas in us,which is why i for one have no need what so ever for freemasonry all you need is Christ in your life.

The only thing i see that fundies and Masons have in common is the riticual we get,that we have very common ground on,you guys might cope some lip from us and vice versa,but hey excuse me we cope it from everyone ,get inline if this is an arguement of persecutionbut as Christians we are told to expect that,so in one sense to us if we are not being persecuted we mus`nt be doing our job.Not that i go out of my way to upset people on purpose but some may say thats what Christians do.Its a duty to witness and point to God through Christ,not point to a pagan God or to Masonry or anything else.