"Masonic" Handshakes and Other Nonsense...

Originally posted by The Axeman

For the last time: there is NO "Masonic god". There is no amalgamation of different gods. Each man worships his own god, and that god alone. Get it?

[edit on 6/14/05 by The Axeman]

I am pretty sure thats as clear as you can put it. I don't think that Truthisoutthere doubts this but I believe his problem with Masionic rituals is the symbology. In which he believes that Paganism occurs in Free Masonry....or I could be totaly off.

Oy !

I am trying here and you are already going backwords.

let me say: I know exactly what you mean and say and for the most part you are correct in your way of your belief.

Before jumping the gun, Is it possible for me to explain or show you what I have found and where the contradiction layes ?

Please I am not judging and don't want to go backwords.

Lets try a different approach- Lets pretend I am a Mason among others and I have found something that was bothering me. Maybe I read something or heard something and I wanted clarity on. Could I come to another member with my concern to disscuss ? Or would you throw me to the dogs ?

Could we approach this with a sound mind and continue ?

Let me know !

Originally posted by Truthisoutthere
Before jumping the gun, Is it possible for me to explain or show you what I have found and where the contradiction layes ?

Please I am not judging and don't want to go backwords.

Neither do I. I'm listening.

Lets try a different approach- Lets pretend I am a Mason among others and I have found something that was bothering me. Maybe I read something or heard something and I wanted clarity on. Could I come to another member with my concern to disscuss ? Or would you throw me to the dogs ?

I'll play along. Let's try it. Lemme know whats up.

Originally posted by Truthisoutthere

Could we approach this with a sound mind and continue ?

Let me know !

I'm not a Mason but I'm game. Hasn't stopped me yet. What's your beef?

Originally posted by Truthisoutthere
Please I am not judging and don't want to go backwords.

I don't blame you for this, you were handed your ass. I'm not a Mason but your logic was seriously wanting.

Lets try a different approach- Lets pretend I am a Mason among others and I have found something that was bothering me. Maybe I read something or heard something and I wanted clarity on. Could I come to another member with my concern to disscuss ? Or would you throw me to the dogs ?

Could we approach this with a sound mind and continue ?

Let me know !

To what end. Further discussion?

Cool.

Originally posted by sebatwerk

Originally posted by Truthisoutthere
Before jumping the gun, Is it possible for me to explain or show you what I have found and where the contradiction layes ?

Please I am not judging and don't want to go backwords.

Neither do I. I'm listening.

Lets try a different approach- Lets pretend I am a Mason among others and I have found something that was bothering me. Maybe I read something or heard something and I wanted clarity on. Could I come to another member with my concern to disscuss ? Or would you throw me to the dogs ?

I'll play along. Let's try it. Lemme know whats up.

Thanks Seba- I do really appreciate it. I will bring something up and maybe we can disect it together ? I think this is a better approach. Maybe I will learn something ?

If we fall back into the same circle though lets just agree to disagree.

Am leaving work right now but will be online later tonight. If you want I can u2u or just come back to the thread ? I really hate poppin in and out like this but during the weekdays this is the best I can do.

Later,
Truth

Originally posted by Truthisoutthere
Wow-Direct as I am. I am not accusing anyone of anything ?

That's not true. You specifically accused me (and other Masons) of not being REAL Christians. Did you forget that???? We didn't.

Because I know that all are individuals and probably have a different view of worship, religion, God etc.......

Uhmm...WE'VE been saying that. Didn't you notice? You sure didn't SEEM to "know" that (as you now claim)

So in no way would I say or accuse all masons of doing anything or the same thing ?

See above. Putting a question mark (?) doesn't change what you said, it just means that you don't understand punctuation.

I do realize that in Masonry we have christians, lutherans, methodists, babtsists,

First and FOREMOST, you've said REPEATEDLY that TRUE CHRISTIANS CANNOT BE MASONS. Now you've changed your mind????? Also, you obviously don't know two things...Lutherans, Methodists and Baptists are CHRISTIANS....and that there is no such thing as "Babtsistst" ..unless you're referring to John the Baptist's lesser known fourth cousin's step-uncles brother, "John the Babtsists" ..which isn't altogether surprising, the family wasn't very proud of him...made him sleep under the sink.

hindu's, buddists, atheists, wiccans, mormons and many others etc...............

Nope. No atheists in Masonry.

Please understand -I think that this is Great that so many different people are coming together for the good of ourselves and others and the community. That's all very wonderful and I can appreciate this !

Truth (lie) do you think that we're all complete morons who've completely forgotten the hideous accusations you made about Masonry just a few posts ago...where you DENIED exactly what you're now extolling???? Say you're sorry, apologize, say you were wrong, but don't insult our intelligence....we KNOW what you said.

But that still doesn't seperate the fact that the Christian God-Jesus Christ does not want and actually forbids prayer or worship to any other god but Himself.

Exactly my point several posts ago (remember back when you said I was not a REAL Christian because I'm a Mason) What you just said is the VERY REASON that when I pray (whether in Lodge or at home or before meals or where/whenever) I pray to the Son of God, Jesus, the Christ.

Whether it's right or wrong or we want to believe or not is completley besides the point.
If you are a not a christian this doesn't apply obviously. But if you are there just might be a conflict ?

You, once again, put a question mark after that statement, which says a lot. You obviously have NO IDEA what you're talking about.

jabber jabber jabber yadda yadda yadda

Do some research (and I DON'T mean research of Masonry) Study some Christian theology...particularly read the teachings of Jesus. You might be surprised at how open-minded and loving he was. In a day when men were to associate with their "own kind" Luke 15:2 said,

But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law muttered, "This man welcomes sinners and eats with them."

Wasn't very self-righteous, was he. Learn from that.

Be well!

I was invited to attend at Corinthian and searched some quests. If Freemasonry are nothing more than a social organization, then how could one account for the incredible number of books existing on the Order? What kind of social organization would possess an archive of two-and-a-half million documents along with a library of sixty thousand books containing its history? The mere existence of such a collection suggested that Freemasonry was more than a large group of citizens organized for community service. "Selah"

Originally posted by Veriter
I was invited to attend at Corinthian and searched some quests. If Freemasonry are nothing more than a social organization, then how could one account for the incredible number of books existing on the Order? What kind of social organization would possess an archive of two-and-a-half million documents along with a library of sixty thousand books containing its history? The mere existence of such a collection suggested that Freemasonry was more than a large group of citizens organized for community service. "Selah"

But no one said it only "are" [sic] a social organization. What was said was that it's anti-Christian, occult, evil, satan worship. It "aren't" those things.

The incredible number of books about Freemasonry have been written because Freemasonry is an incredible organization. Community service is important, but it's MUCH more than that. "Selah"

Originally posted by senrak

Originally posted by Veriter
I was invited to attend at Corinthian and searched some quests. If Freemasonry are nothing more than a social organization, then how could one account for the incredible number of books existing on the Order? What kind of social organization would possess an archive of two-and-a-half million documents along with a library of sixty thousand books containing its history? The mere existence of such a collection suggested that Freemasonry was more than a large group of citizens organized for community service. "Selah"

But no one said it only "are" [sic] a social organization. What was said was that it's anti-Christian, occult, evil, satan worship. It "aren't" those things.

The incredible number of books about Freemasonry have been written because Freemasonry is an incredible organization. Community service is important, but it's MUCH more than that. "Selah"

Give Thanks Senrak. I am merely a servant on the path of freedom. 'The truth will set you free'. Is there a place for a believer in Horus? In my "travels", which is still undergoing, i am at a standstill point trying to overstand the All-seeing eye. Did it originated in Africa (Egypt) during the time of Moses (please correct if right), when he lead the Israelites out of the land by the mighty hand of the great architect? And what is the correlation with sol invictus?

CO_Cowboy,Mods and thread particpants,if i can ask for the oppotunity to post a reply to CO_Cowboy from the thread that was closed due to boiling tempers or something.

Cowboy i noticed your post after the fact and walked around like i had stumbed my toe because i wanted to add this.

Personaly i think you are one of the most colourful characters and would group you with the least offencive type of people on ats,you mis spell words on purpose for accent sake and i understand exactly what your saying,i miss spell because i lack education and some people like to try and belittle people because of it,so never give it up Cowboy you maybe taking some heat off of me.When ever i`ve read your post in the past i`m always reading with a smile even tho i may disagree.

Your logic and beliefs are very simalar to mine,i will and do work talk have freinds of all types most of them would be classed as atheist if i had to label them,to me they are the norm,its near impossable to witness to someone who is a stranger,and straight out of the blue,some of my freinds i grew up with from primary school i`m now 41.I dont disgard people because they dont beleive what i do.Some are cronic alcholics and that puts a strain on our freindship,they see it as my beleifs puts a strain on our freinship i only live in hope that oneday they see Christ for who he was and is.Anyway your analogies could have painted myself in a bad light which i hope has cleared that up.

Intrepide beleives in the sacred pineapple lol sorry by thats one tasty deiety you have,but for the sake of the discussion if he so chose to could in fact become a Mason,Now his God and mine have been given the same name which comes under Gaotu which my God find offensive,it has imo nothing to do with kneeling beside someone else who`s praying to someone else,i could be doing that in church for all i know.So personaly i cannot except Gaotu as a name for my God.Tolerance of others dos`nt come into this disscusion,God is`nt Tolerant with other Gods.Gaotu can be anyones God.Mine and yours and pagan.

Now if that is correct which i beleive it is i beleive that i understand Gods commandment on this issue,someone that promotes anything in their lives which is against God will be veiwed as your works,now ponder for a momment,you meet someone down the street he acciedently bumps you then you thump him,he then thinks ``oh is that how you are supposed to react in these situations``then from now on i``ll do the same,and so on recuring.

For who is forgiven much loves much is where my passion for God comes from,i`m not affraid to say sorry also where i`m wrong,i do it alot to God i try hard not to say sorry for the same thing tho if you get my drift.thats how i see it,not being stuborn for flippent reasons,but everyone draws lines in their life that they will not cross but if i did unknowingly God will not be a hash.Basicly ì`m very simple and from what i`ve read of some who are educated its a blessing to remain simple.

Thanx again for your thoughts Cowboy and keep up that bad spellin

Quick not to Axe your middle quote on your siggie should be tattooed globally on the underside of everyones eye lids,i pray to live up to that standard.

Although I am not presently a mason, (something I hope to change this fall), I have done a great deal of research on masonry. I have been sitting on the sidelines for several months now, but I feel that it is about time for me to give my 2 cents. Both my grandfather and my uncle Bill were masons, and devout Christians. For TIOT, or anyone else, to say that they were not Christians because the were masons is an insult to their memory.
Secondly, TIOT keeps writing about the GAOTU as being the god of the Masons, separate and distinct from the God of the Bible. However, the origin of this term is in fact not masonic, but Christian:

" Jean Calvin (1509-1564) was a French reformer of the Church who, at the age of twenty-six, first published his classic work of theology, The Institutes of Christian Religion. In this work, which formed the basis of theology for Presbyterian and Reformed Churches, Calvin repeatedly calls the Deity "the Architect of the Universe" and refers to His works in nature as "Architecture of the Universe" ten times. Calvin also refers to the Deity as the Great Architect or Architect of the Universe in his Commentary on Psalm 19."
www.indianafreemasons.com...
or for a non masonic reference read his actual writings at
www.ccel.org...

The term GAOTU was later adopted by the masons, who at the time were only christians. (I am not sure when non-christians were allowed. Perhaps one of the masons on this board could educate me on this)
"Wallace McLeod, an eminent Canadian Masonic scholar discusses T. G. A. O. T. U. in his book The Grand Design. McLeod states the phrase entered Freemasonry in the first book of Constitutions of 1723 of the first or Premier Grand Lodge in London. The Constitutions were written by the Rev. James Anderson who was minister of a Scottish Presbyterian Church in Swallow Street in London from 1710 to 1734. Rev. Anderson was a graduate of Marischal College which is a part of the University of Aberdeen in Scotland.
In the seventeenth century, when Anderson was probably studying at the University of Aberdeen, the role of education in Scottish universities was to train their students to become ministers. This meant the students learned the Bible and their theology "according to the reasoned theology of Calvin's Institutes."
www.indianafreemasons.com...

If the term GAOTU was originally a form of addressing the Christian God, such as "Our father, The almighty, the Lord, etc, how could anyone feel that it is anti christian? When non Christians were allowed into the masons, using this term was simply a matter of respect for those who of call thier god by a different name.
My third point is that TIOT seems to feel that if a group, such as the masons, requires a belief in a supreme being, that it is a religious group or religion. And because this group allows non christians, that this group is anti-christian. My question for TIOT is do you consider the Boy Scouts of America to be a religion, or anti-christian? They also require a belief in a supreme being and allow boys of all religions to join. In fact, there was a lawsuit brought by a boy who was thrown out of the scouts for being an athiest. If you codemn the masons, then you also have to condemn the boyscouts for the same reasons.
As I stated earlier, I am not a mason. However, the research that I have done has shown me that the essence of masonry is to bring its members to the hightest state of morality and honor. I have also come to understand that NO religion has a monopoly on morality. However, it seems that the fundamentalist christians ( or as I like to call them, the Christian Taliban), could learn a lot about morality and tolerence from the Masons. Perhaps then they could help them achieve the goals of the masons: making good men better, and the world a better place for everyone, regardless of thier faith.
Sincerely,
Shadowtiger

You have voted Shadowtiger for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have one more vote left for this month.

That's the best first post I think I have ever seen.

Way to go Shadowtiger.

I am not sure when non-christians were allowed. Perhaps one of the masons on this board could educate me on this

First off, let me just say that I agree with the when he says that yours was probably the best first-time post that has been made.

As to when masons began allowing people of all faiths, I am not sure of the answer either. I don't know if Freemasonry has allowed men of all faiths since before the first Grand Lodge was formed in 1717, or if this is a modification that was made to the fraternity sometime later, in which case documentation for this should not be hard to find.

In any case, Freemasonry in England and the early colonial US probably had few, if any, non-Christians. Even if it was not a requirement, I don't know if non-Christians would have held the social status necessary to join a lodge at the time. Certain immigrants were not welcome in middle or upper-class society, of which Freemasonry was primarily composed.

Regardless, it is interesting to note that Freemasonry was indeed founded upon the principles of Christianity, and the fraternity is still rife with Christian symbols and practices. One need look no further than certain symbols and rituals to see the obvious connection with Christianity and its precepts. The lambskin apron can be seen to represent the lamb of God, the symbol of a pelican feeding its babies with its own entrails symbolic of the sacrifice Christ made, the Knights Templar degrees, etc etc... the list is endless.

I can't seem to find anything on Google regarding when Freemasonry began admitting men of all faiths, but I will ask some brothers and get back to you.

Originally posted by Truthisoutthere

I do realize that in Masonry we have christians, lutherans, methodists, babtsists, hindu's, buddists, atheists, wiccans, mormons and many others etc...............

I think the simple fact that when one promises and swears to be the best person they can possibly be it's to God in the presence of the Holy Bible should eliminate about half of those present on your list. I'm pretty sure that Buddhist, Atheists, Wiccans and Hindus would have a real problem with swearing to God so I feel your argument is flawed from the beginning. I believe this is why one of the first questions one has to answer is if you believe in ONE supreme being and your answer has to be yes to even be considered, it eliminates a lot of possible religions and pretty much singles it down to some form of Christianity, as Muslims are devoutly against Freemasonry.

Here's a link
to a Scottish site about the Rosslyn Templars and this quote is from there and I find it fitting to this discussion.

No man can, nor does, speak for Freemasonry. This is one reason why there is not, nor ever will be, a common system of understanding, interpretation and meaning (in other words a Dogma - an essential element of a religion which Freemasonry is not) of all aspects of the Craft. It also ensures that there is a diversity across the world matching as it does the aspirations of all creeds, colours, nationalities and beliefs. Other organisations have agendas whereas Freemasonry has none other than to improve individuals and therefore society as a whole.

Originally posted by gps777
...there were alot of sinister type rituals ``Arkala we`ll do our best``...

First of all it's "Akela", and second of all the whole story is an allegory based upon the Jungle Book. Why must people look so hard for evil in places where there is none?

These i would`nt consider taliban Christians,which i`m sure they would find that offencive i know i did.
www.emfj.org...
or their interpritation of GAOTU as far as Christians are concerned.

I only read the part of that that dealt with GAOTU, and I would say that I DEFINITELY consider that type of "Christians" to be "Taliban Christians" (what a term... ). Their view seems to be very narrow-minded and intolerant. The fact that they collaborate with the likes of E5:11 doesn't say much either.

You people seriously need to wake up and smell the diversity.

i know a travelin man headed east and on his way he told me a few things and i followed him. on the way we passed 30th street and he told me that luicifer was god. he enlightened me on the real conspiracy behind the bible that the good god is actually lucifer. and there is a name for god ,triune in nature, and one of the names means serpent.i thought that seemed kinda christian. it being like a trinity. i also remembered a war, more like a slaughter. in the city of antioch. muslims attacked the city and butchered them. afterwards wiped the blood of their victims on their head, that they would be living "shrines" of the event. i have seen this islamic sword somewhere before, hmmm. later we stopped by this checkered diner and i saw some of the best people ever but at an equal number i saw very bad men. then it dawned on me. blah blah blah our kingdom come. okay bye bye.

www.theforbiddenknowledge.com...

Originally posted by malice_devious
i know a travelin man headed east...

*SNIP*

...okay bye bye.

www.theforbiddenknowledge.com...

is right...

BTW did you know that site is full of complete and utter nonsense?

www.masonicinfo.com...

www.masonicinfo.com...

www.masonicinfo.com...

Sorry to post from a single source, but I believe it to be the best one...

You should really look into both sides of a given issue before making up your mind... Just a thought.

[edit on 6/15/05 by The Axeman]

who says i made up my mind about anything, my emotionally charged little friend. also, what the hell do you mean? what i posted was a link, what i wrote was for fun sorry if you dont understand, maybe someday you will. it must be dark where you are. anyways, the text of the post included, NONE of the information from the site. besides, the satellite image if FACT. now breath calm down and i might listen.