Have I Disturbed Some One? (Revisited)

Hello all!

Sorry for such a long time since a post in this thread. We had a rather long quiet time, and then my thread was lost in the netherworld and I had to get help to find it and get it restored. BUT, now I can tell you about the most recent - and maybe the hardest to explain - activity.

Back in June/July my mother came by with a gift for me that she had picked up at the little antique store in our town. It was an antique silverplated fork from a spoon/fork salad serving set. This was kind of odd just by itself because my mom and dad are on a very limited fixed income (both in their 80's) and they are very frugal people so for her to buy something like this (which cost her $60) was uncharacteristic. When she brought it to me she told me she was going to start looking at the antique stores every once in a while to try and find the matching spoon. The design on the bowl and handle of the fork is very elaborate and ornate and not something I've ever seen before. (I will try to get some digital pictures up for you when I find the cable to the camera - pffft).

Anyway, since I didn't have a silver case and I only had a couple of other silver pieces I keep them wrapped up in towels inmy kitchen drawers, so I wrapped the fork up in a towel and placed it in the back of a drawer.

In August we found a silver storage case we liked and got it and I moved my silver pieces into it - except for the fork, because I had forgotten it was back in the back of that drawer. Shortly after that we had my parents over one night for dinner and I was showing my mom the case we had just picked up and it dawned on me that I had not put the fork in. So my mom and I walked into the kitchen and I opened the drawer and pulled out the towel in the back of the drawer and unrolled it to take the fork out.... only it wasn't just the fork, it was the fork AND THE MATCHING SPOON. And it is the matching spoon, same manufacturer stamp, same ornate, unique design. But the spoon had been polished where the fork had not been.

So when this is revealed I say to mom (thinking she found the spoon, bought it and snuck it in - which doesn't make sense in hindsight because she would have to know where I had put the fork) "Oh! You found the spoon!" And she looks at me with big eyes and says "No, I didn't. I haven't even been able to go look for it." So we both stood there and stared at each other and the spoon.

This one is very very hard to explain. In thinking about this, I've come up with a possible explanation, so I'll just toss it out.

This is a very small town, so there is a good possibility that if the little antique store here is buying antiques locally, then they are buying antiques from a limited number of families who have lived in the town for the past century+. So there is the possibility that the salad serving set could be connected to one of the families that lived here - either the original builder or the next family. Maybe the spoon was here all along, some where lost or something and when the fork was brought into the house, something reunited the two pieces. The bigger brain twister for me on this speculation is the fact the spoon was polished...that one puts a really weird twist on it.

Well, that's my update - as always I look forward to reading your thoughts on this!

Hi Valhall - It's nice to see you have picked your thread back and up and continue with it. This thread is by far one of my favorites on ATS.

With that said...

This is very unusual. Now we actually have the materialization of a tangible object, not just bumps in the night after closing the attic vent for the winter or books turned to certain pages, but an actual thing that can be held, tested etc.

I would love to see a picture of the two pieces if you get the chance to upload them.

Out of curiosity (And I'm sure your expecting this question), are you sure no one bought the matching spoon as a surprise - no one else in your family, or perhaps a family friend?

Yeah I have to ask the same thing too.... are you sure no one else in the family might have bought it for you?

Assuming your answer is that you've asked everyone already and all you've gotten back is no's, blank looks and confused stares.. then

does the spoon feel different? (you should know what I mean by that)

and since they fork and spoon have found each other, have you tried separating them and seeing if they find their way back to each other?

It is interesting how your mom acquired the set in the place being that it's out of character for her, perhaps someone/something likes your renovations to the house and wanted to be sure you get some of it's authentic artifacts back as a show of appreciation? Maybe you should try finding out from the shop owner how they acquired the set and if they ever had a spoon or knew of the missing spoon?

Yep, of course, there was an on the spot inquisition as soon as this occurred. I only have a limited number of people who would buy something like that for me - my mom, my daughter, my son and my husband. Springer and my daughter (as well as my father) were there at the time this occurred so I was able to confirm with both of them. I don't think Springer even knew about the fork, because I'm not sure he was home when my mother brought it to me. My daughter would have to get the money from me - lol - bein's she hasn't had a job in months due to her health.

My son, who wasn't there at the time of this, didn't know about the fork at all. I had to tell the whole story to him. And even if he had known, at that time he was going through training in his job and was having to be subsidized by mommy during that time...so there's no way he would have gone antique shopping. Heck, even now that he has money he wouldn't go antique shopping!

No, as I stated up front on this latest post - this is the most unexplainable event to occur so far because as stated, this is a materialization (I believe a placement of) an object that was previously not even known about. In the past, the most unexplainable thing was the 5 to 6 month disappearance of Springer's wallet and then it showing up in the folds of a table cloth that had been used during the period the wallet was gone. That one was very very tough - especially considering all the contents of the wallet were intact. But this one is even harder to explain because this isn't one of our own personal objects going missing and then turning back up - as has been the case for over 4 years now, but this is an unknown, unfamiliar object that has turned up out of no where.

ww - you always ask me challenging, thought-provoking questions. I have to sadly admit I have not held the two utensils in a meditative way in order to be able to answer if they feel different. I will do that this evening, and get back to you on this thread. I will also take pictures - even if I have to go buy a new cable.

Thanks guys for your interest!

[edit on 10-11-2007 by Valhall]

reply to post by Valhall


This story reminds me of one I heard recently on C2C told by Dr. Edgar Mitchell who said he lost a tie pin some years earlier before meeting Uri Geller. He and Uri were having lunch one day and Uri ordered some ice cream and when he took a bite he bit down on a metal object when he took it out to examine it was part of the tie pin.

Dr. Mitchell had not yet recognized it but later that day when they were both back at SRI the other part of the tie pin materialized and it was then that Dr. Mitchell realized it was the tie pin he had lost some years before.

Link to story on C2C






[edit on 11-10-2007 by etshrtslr]

Okay, here are the pictures I took. Remember the fork (spork?) is the one that my mother bought me and the spoon is the one that just showed up. Not only does the spoon not have the patina the fork has, but it definitely appears to have been much less used than the fork. I'm hoping this is evident in the pictures. The best place to see the difference in wear on the two is at the neck of each one where the stem transitions to the bowl. The details in that area on the fork are worn down while they are still very prominent on the spoon.

ww - I can't really pick up any discernable difference between the two.

Also, I will try to get down to the antique store on Saturday and visit with the owner.

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They're very pretty and pretty unique too.

Is there any markings on the set that can hint to how old they are?
That might give you an idea if it ties into the history of the house.

I was thinking about it and I don't think the separation thing will work, because the set is now together in the house and "whomever" is responsible might not think that it matters if it's different drawers because "it" knows you know that they belong together.

keep us updated about your findings in the antique shop.

Folgate Silver Plate Berry Spoons. 1875-1900

Image

History of the spork mentions it.

Ebay

Thats what I think they are.


[edit on 10/11/07 by makeitso]

nice work makeitso

those are some "real antique" pieces (1850's-1899)

so Val, do you know who lived in your house, area or property around that time?

edited to add and can you confirm that those are folgate pieces?? thanks

[edit on 10-11-2007 by worldwatcher]

Better

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[edit on 10/11/07 by makeitso]

Originally posted by makeitso
Folgate Silver Plate Berry Spoons. 1875-1900

Image

History of the spork mentions it.

Ebay

Thats what I think they are.


[edit on 10/11/07 by makeitso]

OMG! That's it. This gives me goosebumps! freak! The time of manufacture is right at the same time the people who built this house moved here!!!!

Originally posted by makeitso

Better

pics



[edit on 10/11/07 by makeitso]

Okay, these pics here are identical to the pieces I have. Mine also have the silverplate made in england stamp on the handles. So these are identical.

ww - the history is as follows.

The man who built this house came out here to the frontier with just one or two of his sons and left his wife and possibly other children behind back east. He lived in a dugout for a while - which was typical when people first arrived in this area. That dugout was up near the town north of us. Then he eventually bought this property along with 3 other men and they incorporated their pieces of land into the town name that it is now. Now - that was in the 1890's while white men could not own land in Indian Territory and this was Indian Territory. So basically what they did was "lease to purchase" if you will on the condition they had to always have an Indian foreman running their operations. In fact, in the 1930's the man who built this house was interviewed about the pioneer days of this area, and recalled when their Indian died and they had to go recruit a new Indian foreman in order to keep their land.

Now, the way all the white men leasing the land worked when the twin territories (Oklahoma Territory and Indian Territory) joined and officially became the state of Oklahoma in 1907 is that all the lands that had been "bought" previously be white men were deeded over in 1906. But this man lived here in the 1890's. In fact, his granddaughter has the letters he wrote back east to his wife saying to the affect "hurry up and get out here and help me". The house, we believe, was built not before 1900 - because the 1900 census does not show a residence here - either vacant or occupied, but in the 1910 census it shows the original family living here. The picture taken of the original builder's wife and his daughter on the front porch was taken in 1904, so we place the building of the house between 1900-1904.

So the date of manufacture would match perfectly considering the lady would have moved all her possessions out somewhere before 1904. I believe the granddaughter said 1897 is when she may have come on out.

[edit on 10-11-2007 by Valhall]

great history and now this incident. Lots of connections being made.

If I recall correctly, you felt a male presence before, do you think it's him doing this, or is it the wife?

I am correct in also assuming that you're still doing improvements on the house or recently did some? I think I mentioned it before, but maybe their happy with their tenants.

Some one else did a psychic reading on the house on this thread and stated they felt multiple presences one being a female and one being a male and possibly a child. They said the male was angry, possibly an alcoholic or a wife beater. They speculated that was what my grandson saw coming in the side door of the front room.

And boy oh boy are we still working on it!

If you go to this blog entry

blog.abovetopsecret.com...

you will be able to view a filmloop I created that took us up through remodeling efforts through October of last year. And Springer took these pics today (he didn't do too good at getting the whole house in so I'll talk you through them.) We got the second floor on the new structure and we built 41 trusses by hand ourselves and set them. Then we had roofers come out and tear 7 LAYERS OF ROOF off the original house and re-roof the old roof and the new roof. So now we're officially piss-poor.

These pics are taken from the second floor of the new structure looking up into our trusses.

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This is looking toward the rear of the second floor. You can see the wall and doorway that will go into the bathroom.

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And this is looking toward the front of the house into the bay area where "ATS Indian Territory HQ" will reside - Springer's office space.

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This is a shot of the back of the new structure and you can see part of our new roof!

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This is a shot of the east side of the new structure getting the second story of the bay in...

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And this is a shot of the front of the house showing the two-story bay.

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As you can see we still have long way to go but getting the hip roof built and the house re-roofed was probably the most substantial hurdle for us and the greatest improvement to the house. Now we just have to keep finishing out!



[edit on 10-11-2007 by Valhall]

I know you were remodeling but I had no idea the extent of the remodel you actually have going on How are you still able to function???

so it would seem my theory of appreciation for the improvements might not be too far off.

I hope you'll still seek out that antiques dealer for additional history..

Originally posted by worldwatcher


I am correct in also assuming that you're still doing improvements on the house or recently did some? I think I mentioned it before, but maybe their happy with their tenants.

Here's the reason I almost think this was a "gift". In all of my adult life I've never actually outright owned my very own dining room table. I have had little dinette sets, but when it came to a large dining room table I've had hand me downs. Right before this spoon appeared Springer and I found this awesome hand-made table. It's not a formal dining room table, it's a rustic unique table made of reclaimed lumber from old barns. We loved it and we made the decision to, instead of turning the east side of the front room into a library (which will now be on the lower floor of the new structure), we would get that table and place it in that area as our "family" dining area and then we would continue on with the formal dining area where we had always intended it with a nice fancy-pants table some day. So we bought the table and then we went and found chairs we liked and I made a nice table runner and then I found a silver pattern that I liked, and a china pattern - all antique patterns, not new stuff, and I decided I would slowly order settings of each as I could afford to. The reason we bought the silvercase is that I had just bought my first few pieces of the silverware I had chosen and I needed to store them properly.

So it's like this spoon showed up as part of my new little dining area....lol.

[edit on 10-12-2007 by Valhall]

Spoon Update

I just got back from visiting with the owner of the antique store where my mother purchased the fork. I took both pieces down for her to see and explained everything that had happened concerning the sudden appearance of the spoon. She was able to recall exactly where she had the fork on display which matches exactly what my mom had told me that it was sitting on a table near the left front of the store. She said she never recalled having the spoon and that if she had she would have never parted the set. She is almost certain the fork was from her step-mother's estate, but she could not be certain. Though her step-mom ended up living in several locations across the U.S., she did have ties to this area and eventually came back here, married this woman's father and was living here at the time of her death.

She gave me her step-mother's maiden name so that I can do research to see if there could be a family connection between her and the original builder or the second family. But at the same time she agreed that her step-mom could have picked the piece up at an estate sale or garage sale after returning to this area.

And she was tickled pink about the whole concept that I have a spirit in my house benevolent enough to give me a wonderful gift.

Something I want to share about the spoon. I was speaking with one of the chemists I work with yesterday and I told him all about the spoon story. When I got to the part where I was perplexed at the fact the spoon was pristine with no tarnish and no real sign of use, while the fork was tarnished and showed wear from use, his reaction was "So the spoon has been in an oxygen-free environment all this time."

That's a mind-bending concept.

[edit on 10-13-2007 by Valhall]

very interesting Val, it's definitely possible that the shopkeeper's mom could have picked it up from an estate sale.. but even so if the set isn't original to the house, perhaps it reminded the "presence" of the set it had and so it gave you the spoon. Still that doesn't explain why her mom didn't have the spoon...

don't you love the small mysteries of life? the entire "no oxygen environment" opens up my mind to even more mind boggling possibilities and makes me question what I know of spirits and their interaction with humans. I'm going to do some research of my own that may or may not help you, but non the less it should be interesting....

Hi Val,

Great thread, I've had a lot of fun following it's progress since I signed up to the site.

Just thought I would chip in my two cents to ask do you think your mother was perhaps subconsiously influenced to buy the fork?

If so the implications are quite scary...!

Originally posted by Poon
Hi Val,

Great thread, I've had a lot of fun following it's progress since I signed up to the site.

Just thought I would chip in my two cents to ask do you think your mother was perhaps subconsiously influenced to buy the fork?

If so the implications are quite scary...!

I almost do. It was so unlike her. In discussing this on Friday with her I asked her "Mom, what ever made you think you might be able to find the matching spoon to such a unique thing?" And she said "Well, it had to have a mate out there some where." And I said, "Yeah, apparently in my house!" We both laughed.