Ukraine Style war would mean UK forces would be done in 6 months

a reply to: Bluntone22

The only reason the troops were stuck at Dunkirk is that they would need to swim to get home.

They did not swim home, they got a lift.

Did you miss the mass evacuation that took place where just about every seaworthy boat in the UK braved the English Channel, air and submarine attack from the Nazis, to rescue the remaining forces on the beach?



You should watch the movie, it's all shot in one piece(A lot of it is) and rather spectacular.

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: Bluntone22

The only reason the troops were stuck at Dunkirk is that they would need to swim to get home.

They did not swim home, they got a lift.

Did you miss the mass evacuation that took place where just about every seaworthy boat in the UK boat braved the channel and air and submarine attack from the Nazis to rescue the remaining forces on the beach?

You should watch the movie, it's all shot in one piece and rather spectacular.

Dude, seriously.

I know they didn’t swim home. (Pretty good movie by the way”
Why didn’t they drive or walk instead of stopping on the beach?
Oh yeah. 20 miles of water.

The same water that stopped a rolling German army.
The battle would have been vastly different if that had been land instead of water.

a reply to: Bluntone22

Dude, seriously.

I was just being a little facetious my bad. LoL

The same water that's stopped any major invasion for a 1000 years in our direction.

As to battles, you cannot take or invade an area without attaining air superiority Bluntone22, not in the modern era where the other side has an airforce.

And that's as true today as it was back when we invaded the beaches of Normandy.

Its the main reason Russia cannot run a mock and overrun Ukraine aka mere MANPADS.

But those 20 miles in question, are a hell of a trek, as history has clearly proven.

And it does not change the fact that Hitler could not mount an invasion of the UK because Göring's Luftwaffe lost the air war.

a reply to: andy06shake

No biggie..✌️
People tend to get upset when talking history.

It’s not completely necessary to have air superiority as long as the other side doesn’t have it either.
Now imagine the battle of Britain being fought while the German army was rolling across the land. The targets and outcome could have been much different and the RAF would have been pretty busy.

Much like Britain, the United States has enjoyed the protection of being surrounded by water throughout its history.

a reply to: Bluntone22

Waters good, same as any barrier when you are defending.

We did have air superiority through, Germany not so much, hence they would not have been rolling across any of our land or sea.

You're posing hypotheticals now instead of actually what happened.

It is completely necessary to have air superiority if the other side has an effective Air Force Bluntone22.

Otherwise, you are not going to advance an infantry or mechanized force very far before they are turned into scrap metal or blood and guts via air attack and/or spotted for an artillery strike.

That's just the way modern warfare is fought.

And the outcome a well-established fact.

Edit: I need to head now anyway, as i allowed myself to be roped into painting the background sets for the local church Christmas pantomime/play this evening.

Have fun ATS.

a reply to: andy06shake

"Edit: I need to head now anyway, as i allowed myself to be roped into painting the background sets for the local church Christmas pantomime/play this evening."

Oh No you're not!

Etc.

Who we having that war with exactly? We wouldn’t be fighting it alone if it was with Russia and they would be decimated conventionally in weeks. Just more absolute BS. If our politicians and advisors believe this to be the case then spend more. Maybe stop eating endless billions on the WEF mandated immigrants.

originally posted by: stu119

The British army could be wiped out in as little as six months if forced to fight a war on the scale of the Ukraine conflict, a defence minister has warned.

Do you really think anyone else would fight a WWI style war? Where is the massive Air Power?

originally posted by: ARM19688
Who we having that war with exactly? We wouldn’t be fighting it alone if it was with Russia and they would be decimated conventionally in weeks. Just more absolute BS. If our politicians and advisors believe this to be the case then spend more. Maybe stop eating endless billions on the WEF mandated immigrants.

Oceania isn’t it? Haven’t you always been at war with Oceania?

Your sector just got bombed in the simulation, report to the department of humane removal.

Have a 🤪 nice day!

The whole country has gone bananas over the past few decades, there's no way we can fight a proper war. Couldn't even beat a bunch of poppy farmers in Helmand and had to run away with the tail between our legs. When my mum was born we still controlled the greatest Empire the world has ever seen. She's still going and had to witness the fall to the current joke post industrial sh*t show of a state we live in today. Within just one lifetime! Unbelievable! The only proper war this nation needs to contemplate in civil war, if it's not already in motion. Just a wander around this nation north of Birmingham and it appears the civil war is already taking place. There is no optimism these days. All gone. No feel good factor. We can't even win a footie competition never mind take on BRICS on the battlefield. Our MOD purchases much of our bullet casings directly from a BRICS nation in africa! Nice bit of forward planning buying off the potential enemy lol when planning for WW3

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: stu119

The British army could be wiped out in as little as six months if forced to fight a war on the scale of the Ukraine conflict, a defence minister has warned.

Do you really think anyone else would fight a WWI style war? Where is the massive Air Power?

Yes there seems to be rather strange assumption that we would fight a future war the way Russia does.

originally posted by: ufoorbhunter
The whole country has gone bananas over the past few decades, there's no way we can fight a proper war. Couldn't even beat a bunch of poppy farmers in Helmand and had to run away with the tail between our legs. When my mum was born we still controlled the greatest Empire the world has ever seen. She's still going and had to witness the fall to the current joke post industrial sh*t show of a state we live in today. Within just one lifetime! Unbelievable! The only proper war this nation needs to contemplate in civil war, if it's not already in motion. Just a wander around this nation north of Birmingham and it appears the civil war is already taking place. There is no optimism these days. All gone. No feel good factor. We can't even win a footie competition never mind take on BRICS on the battlefield. Our MOD purchases much of our bullet casings directly from a BRICS nation in africa! Nice bit of forward planning buying off the potential enemy lol when planning for WW3

In the last few wars involving the UK and allies we have won the conventional war stage in weeks.

It's the winning the peace we fail at.

Since we aren't planning on occupying Russia not so much of a problem.

originally posted by: Bluntone22
a reply to: andy06shake

No biggie..✌️
People tend to get upset when talking history.

It’s not completely necessary to have air superiority as long as the other side doesn’t have it either.
Now imagine the battle of Britain being fought while the German army was rolling across the land. The targets and outcome could have been much different and the RAF would have been pretty busy.

Much like Britain, the United States has enjoyed the protection of being surrounded by water throughout its history.

If the channel didn't exist then the composition of the British forces would also have been much different.

A large part of the reason the UK had a powerful navy and a weak army is because of the channel.

a reply to: BedevereTheWise

It's the winning the peace we fail at.

Miserably.

I don't think anyone can argue against that point.

originally posted by: BedevereTheWise


In the last few wars involving the UK and allies we have won the conventional war stage in weeks.

It's the winning the peace we fail at.

Since we aren't planning on occupying Russia not so much of a problem.

Yes with the allies we might do alright. Basically as long as the Yanks are there we'll be alright, and yes in the actual initial stages rather than dealing with the afterwards. I just can't see us lasting against the CSTO nations basically Russia if it's a long drawn out affair. I don't think kids can be brainwashed or even have the patriotism of old. Too many realise those at the top use as as cannon fodder and we're not brainwashed enough to fight. Russian youth generally will fight. Chinese, well that's to be seen yet I guess the brainwashing is similar to Russia.

What I can't see is us having the industrial capability to supply the military in a proper war. When it comes to steel production, military vehicle output, munitions output, general engineering, we lost that over the past 40 years to the point of nothingness today. I just can't believe we could keep producing enough war materials to compete with the two nations mentioned above. Just not going to happen. Successive governments have presided over the deindustrialisation of the UK. Even with mothballed production facilities, the skills, they are gone. Whole industries have been closed down essential for supplying proper wars. We just couldn't compete if fighting a nation in a proper multi year war with the state of the nation today.

originally posted by: ufoorbhunter

originally posted by: BedevereTheWise


In the last few wars involving the UK and allies we have won the conventional war stage in weeks.

It's the winning the peace we fail at.

Since we aren't planning on occupying Russia not so much of a problem.

Yes with the allies we might do alright. Basically as long as the Yanks are there we'll be alright, and yes in the actual initial stages rather than dealing with the afterwards. I just can't see us lasting against the CSTO nations basically Russia if it's a long drawn out affair. I don't think kids can be brainwashed or even have the patriotism of old. Too many realise those at the top use as as cannon fodder and we're not brainwashed enough to fight. Russian youth generally will fight. Chinese, well that's to be seen yet I guess the brainwashing is similar to Russia.

What I can't see is us having the industrial capability to supply the military in a proper war. When it comes to steel production, military vehicle output, munitions output, general engineering, we lost that over the past 40 years to the point of nothingness today. I just can't believe we could keep producing enough war materials to compete with the two nations mentioned above. Just not going to happen. Successive governments have presided over the deindustrialisation of the UK. Even with mothballed production facilities, the skills, they are gone. Whole industries have been closed down essential for supplying proper wars. We just couldn't compete if fighting a nation in a proper multi year war with the state of the nation today.

Our Industrial output has declined in relative terms to the past but the UK still has the 11th largest industrial output in the world.

Russian youth are made to fight. The advantages of a volunteer military have been known for decades.

The reality is that Russia is struggling against a poorer , smaller neighbour directly on its own doorstep.

In a conventional attack against NATO it would defeated in weeks.

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: BedevereTheWise

It's the winning the peace we fail at.

Miserably.

I don't think anyone can argue against that point.

I think it's important we don't learn the wrong lessons from recent wars.

We didn't lose because our troops can't fight or are badly equipped. We lost because our idea of nation building is fools endeavour.

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

Yes with the allies we might do alright. Basically as long as the Yanks are there we'll be alright......

Obviously there's more than just a little bit of truth in that.
But why do you think the US always wants the UK on its side in any military operation etc? Its because they recognise and have massive respect for the UK military and their fighting abilities.
Its a mutually beneficial arrangement.

The first job I had back in '82 when I left school was as a panel beater in a small back street garage. One of the guys who worked there fought in WWII. He was a Desert Rat and then took part in the invasion of Italy. After that he was shipped home and was in the second wave of Allied soldiers landing in Normandy.
He fought his way across Western Europe and was in a group of soldiers who liberated one of the larger Concentration Camps - sorry, I forget exactly which one.

He told me all sorts of stories whilst we were having a brew sat around an old style brazier fire.
Arthur was a true old style Gentleman but had proper balls of steel.

At the same time I'd also become acquainted with a friend of my Dad's, Auld Fred. Fred fought in the last year or two of WWI.

Arthur told me one day that the old WWI Vets used to ridicule Arthur's generation, say they were weak, soft and spoilt. They'd regularly say we'd be #ed if they had to fight a war.

Next time I saw Auld Fred over a pint I asked him about this. He said it was true. He also said that before WWI a lot of older people used to ridicule Fred's generation and say exactly the same things.
Fred, who was the source of immense wisdom, said its always been the case and always will be. But he said never, ever doubt the fighting spirit of the British people. When the need arises and our backs are against the wall that's when you see the best of the British people and we always rise to the occasion.

I could tell you about two young lads I know who signed up for the Army. Son's of friends of mine. One was going down the wrong road, got involved in a bit of stuff - well out of his league. He thought he was a bit of hard man, soft as #e.
He's now in the Para's and a great lad who has seen active service in several places.

The other lad was nothing but a spoilt, arrogant, self-centred wanker who I had no time for whatsoever.
He joined The Marines - I suspect he is now Special Forces - and is currently on active service 'somewhere'. He's an absolute great guy, good fun, humble but quietly confident and will do anything for anyone.

I guess you get the point I'm trying to make.

originally posted by: BedevereTheWise

Our Industrial output has declined in relative terms to the past but the UK still has the 11th largest industrial output in the world.

Russian youth are made to fight. The advantages of a volunteer military have been known for decades.

The reality is that Russia is struggling against a poorer , smaller neighbour directly on its own doorstep.

In a conventional attack against NATO it would defeated in weeks.

It's not enough output to take on Russia if we go in alone. I just can't see we have resources to match anything like what Russia has. It's not even close. Yes we still have some form of industrial base yet please remember................. 'We' can't even make a new train line, nevermind the locomotives to run on it! Our steel industry is right now pretty much over. They won't even allow a new coal mine to supply coking coal for steel production. Everything is gone or will be at this rate. The one thing we do have is Rolls Royce. Yes they are a gem and can supply the engines for the military. That's the one company in the supply chains to give us hope.

Russian youth fight because they know how much evil by outside forces has been inflicted on their nation since 1917. They know how the outside world has at times sought to destroy them as a state and to this day seeks to do so.

Sure Russia can't complete against NATO. Totally out manned etc, but against just the UK, when push comes to shove they probably will prevail. You state Russia is struggling against Ukraine. Well not quite at this moment in time. Russia is actually winning that war. Ukraine is a massive country. It is also supplied by NATO amongst others. Russia is actually fighting NATO (using Ukrainian gun fodder young lads) in Ukraine with all of the weaponry supplied by the west. They are winning in the east and please remember, Russian's are learning fast. Sure the initial assault while quite impressive, stalled due to supply chain issues. Russia has learnt from its mistakes. In addition Russia has learnt modern fighting techniques too. Russia has switched its economy to a war footing now, they are producing masses of equipment, something the UK can only dream of. Technological catch up is also happening. Ukraine is being ground down to a mass of women and old men, sure its a crude way to win yet Russia is winning and will come away with some of the best industrial lands and ports from this at the very least the size of Great Britain right now.

originally posted by: ufoorbhunter

originally posted by: BedevereTheWise

Our Industrial output has declined in relative terms to the past but the UK still has the 11th largest industrial output in the world.

Russian youth are made to fight. The advantages of a volunteer military have been known for decades.

The reality is that Russia is struggling against a poorer , smaller neighbour directly on its own doorstep.

In a conventional attack against NATO it would defeated in weeks.

It's not enough output to take on Russia if we go in alone. I just can't see we have resources to match anything like what Russia has. It's not even close. Yes we still have some form of industrial base yet please remember................. 'We' can't even make a new train line, nevermind the locomotives to run on it! Our steel industry is right now pretty much over. They won't even allow a new coal mine to supply coking coal for steel production. Everything is gone or will be at this rate. The one thing we do have is Rolls Royce. Yes they are a gem and can supply the engines for the military. That's the one company in the supply chains to give us hope.

Russian youth fight because they know how much evil by outside forces has been inflicted on their nation since 1917. They know how the outside world has at times sought to destroy them as a state and to this day seeks to do so.

Sure Russia can't complete against NATO. Totally out manned etc, but against just the UK, when push comes to shove they probably will prevail. You state Russia is struggling against Ukraine. Well not quite at this moment in time. Russia is actually winning that war. Ukraine is a massive country. It is also supplied by NATO amongst others. Russia is actually fighting NATO (using Ukrainian gun fodder young lads) in Ukraine with all of the weaponry supplied by the west. They are winning in the east and please remember, Russian's are learning fast. Sure the initial assault while quite impressive, stalled due to supply chain issues. Russia has learnt from its mistakes. In addition Russia has learnt modern fighting techniques too. Russia has switched its economy to a war footing now, they are producing masses of equipment, something the UK can only dream of. Technological catch up is also happening. Ukraine is being ground down to a mass of women and old men, sure its a crude way to win yet Russia is winning and will come away with some of the best industrial lands and ports from this at the very least the size of Great Britain right now.

There is no realistic scenario where UK would fight Russia alone so not an issue.

Russia (or at least it governments) have been responsible for more oppression in Europe over the last hundred years than any other country (including a moustached Austrian in that). The idea of Russia as the victim is laughable.

And Russia isn't fighting NATO. Its fighting a smaller poorer neighbour equipped with older soviet kit and NATO surplus. After 3 years Russia still can't even control the territory it's llegally claiming as it's own.

The masses of equipment that Russia is introducing is mainly refitted soviet era stock or cheap imports from other dictatorships. Hardly a point of pride. Russia has been forced into a war economy (making itself poorer in real terms) because of its failures in Ukraine. This war has been a disaster for the Russian people.