Well, here we go red lines crossed Biden gives the go ahead to use long range missiles

originally posted by: putnam6
And yeah FB if Putin was such a menace, perhaps Europe shouldn't have been buying natural gas from him in the first place.

If we went back 10 years most people viewed Russia as coming around to not be a threat anymore. Even I who was in the Cold War viewed a new Russia that wanted to sell its energy and live more of a symbiotic state with the world and not be an aggressor as days of old. Back then I viewed China as the next aggressor, and then Ukraine happened and Russia of old peaked its ugly head out once again. Is it because Putin is growing old and his main desire all these years has been to get the 13 countries under the USSR back together again? I think so, but with no threat, he attacked Ukraine thinking it was going to be just another month of war with very few bullets fired, and he was so wrong and now is stuck.

a reply to: Tolkien

The point is i think you may be rather racist towards people who are not just like you.

But hey'ho if you wish to go around calling people, you obviously dont like, "savages" and tarring them with the same brush, go for it if it makes you feel better.

Ignore whatever you please, but the first step to dealing with a problem is recognising it exists.

They are not going to go away, especially when you want there stuff and resources.

And thats what first-world nations do that being consume the resources of third-world nations.

Its just how the cookie crumbles.

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: putnam6
And yeah FB if Putin was such a menace, perhaps Europe shouldn't have been buying natural gas from him in the first place.

If we went back 10 years most people viewed Russia as coming around to not be a threat anymore. Even I who was in the Cold War viewed a new Russia that wanted to sell its energy and live more of a symbiotic state with the world and not be an aggressor as days of old. Back then I viewed China as the next aggressor, and then Ukraine happened and Russia of old peaked its ugly head out once again. Is it because Putin is growing old and his main desire all these years has been to get the 13 countries under the USSR back together again? I think so, but with no threat, he attacked Ukraine thinking it was going to be just another month of war with very few bullets fired, and he was so wrong and now is stuck.

Missing my point no doubt Im not being clear and concise enough, they still were members of NATO took NATO dollars they shouldn't have done anything to strengthen the country NATO was formed to protect against. Not to mention they bought NG from Russia throughout 2022 IIRC.

Half of this message board views Putin as a complete threat to Europe the non-Nato nations and NATO itself. When 3 years in Ukraine have proven the exact opposite. Yet America is to still spend billions to allay their paranoid fears and prop up Ukraine which has no blueprint for complete victory. IMHO it is complete BS

originally posted by: putnam6

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: putnam6
And yeah FB if Putin was such a menace, perhaps Europe shouldn't have been buying natural gas from him in the first place.

If we went back 10 years most people viewed Russia as coming around to not be a threat anymore. Even I who was in the Cold War viewed a new Russia that wanted to sell its energy and live more of a symbiotic state with the world and not be an aggressor as days of old. Back then I viewed China as the next aggressor, and then Ukraine happened and Russia of old peaked its ugly head out once again. Is it because Putin is growing old and his main desire all these years has been to get the 13 countries under the USSR back together again? I think so, but with no threat, he attacked Ukraine thinking it was going to be just another month of war with very few bullets fired, and he was so wrong and now is stuck.

Missing my point no doubt Im not being clear and concise enough, they still were members of NATO took NATO dollars they shouldn't have done anything to strengthen the country NATO was formed to protect against. Not to mention they bought NG from Russia throughout 2022 IIRC.

Half of this message board views Putin as a complete threat to Europe the non-Nato nations and NATO itself. When 3 years in Ukraine have proven the exact opposite. Yet America is to still spend billions to allay their paranoid fears and prop up Ukraine which has no blueprint for complete victory. IMHO it is complete BS

Over reliance on Russian gas was a massive mistake which could have been a lot worse. A combination of cheap prices and a misplaced belief that Putin would act rationally is to blame.

Russia's invasion of Ukraine has been a disaster for Russia but has been absolutely catastrophic for Ukraine and it will take decades to recover. The role and importance of NATO has never been clearer.

originally posted by: putnam6

Half of this message board views Putin as a complete threat to Europe the non-Nato nations and NATO itself.

Who is the threat to attack the next country over there, NATO or Russia? NATO is kind of a wussy and just plays war outside of Britain.

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: Tolkien

You are the one that is obtuse and refuses to follow known good military strategies of the past 80 years that involved NO invasion and NO bloodshed.
There's already 1 million dead. You want more ?

I guess you missed the war's objective from the US point of view. The main objective is for this to be a war of attrition and devastating sanctions that leads to a regime change with Putin gone and with him goes his insane desire to get the old team back together like the days of old.

Your view is if Mexico invaded the south, you would just say, we do not want bloodshed so take back the lower half of the states there. Seems a little strange when we put it in that context, doesn't it?

Putin started this war and he could end it tomorrow. There is no win for him anyway. It would be still years more to take the country, massive sanctions are crushing them, the large food basket of Ukraine isn't happening, Russia's infrastructure is dying with zero Western support, and so much more. Then when he finally takes the country, if we do not put in air power that would end it too, the sanctions are still there and he would need to keep 3 million soldiers there to maintain the occupation. There is no win for him except to end it and just take Donbas and the land bridge to Crimea.

A war with Mexico would be defending US territory
Ukraine is not.
Spot the difference.

The US should not be "world police".
Should the US also intervene in the war in Sudan ?
How about intervening in the civil war in Haiti ?
Israel just invaded Lebanon - Should the US intervene ?
How about the ongoing wars in Niger, Mali and Burkina Faso ?

NO !
It is the responsibility of those nations' citizens to fix their OWN problems
At some point, US resources need to be used for US citizens.



The difference is Mexico does not own nuclear weapons.
If you want a war with Mexico, have at it.

A war with a nuclear state, not so much.

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: Tolkien

The point is i think you may be rather racist towards people who are not just like you.

But hey'ho if you wish to go around calling people, you obviously dont like, "savages" and tarring them with the same brush, go for it if it makes you feel better.

Ignore whatever you please, but the first step to dealing with a problem is recognising it exists.

They are not going to go away, especially when you want there stuff and resources.

And thats what first-world nations do that being consume the resources of third-world nations.

Its just how the cookie crumbles.

Oh God, out of arguments so you falsely pull the "racist" card.
Your race card has been declined.

News flash.
It does not matter what race you are.
Women of any race being forced to wear a black Burka when it's 80 F outside is mean, cruel and unacceptable
People being stoned to death for any reason in unacceptable, also cruel and mean. Even legitimate cases of capital punishment, in 2024, there are more humane ways to carry out such a sentence.

a reply to: Tolkien

You did sign up for certain security obligations towards Ukraine, though?

No one wants a War with Russia, although Russia is constantly threatening the West with nukes.

a reply to: Xtrozero

The question that Tolkien can't answer is where do you draw the hard line?

Exactly.If Ukraine had fallen in a few months - which it probably would have done without aid and support - Putin would simply have regrouped, reorganised his military, built up his armed forces and then invaded somewhere like Moldova.
Still unopposed he would have done the same with The Baltic States and who knows wherever else.

History has shown us time and time again that this is what power hungry dictators do.
Appeasing them does not work.

..... he attacked Ukraine thinking it was going to be just another month of war with very few bullets fired, and he was so wrong and now is stuck.

He has two hopes left; that his threat of using nuclear weapons works and/or that the US withdraws all aid and support.

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: Xtrozero

The question that Tolkien can't answer is where do you draw the hard line?

Exactly.If Ukraine had fallen in a few months - which it probably would have done without aid and support - Putin would simply have regrouped, reorganised his military, built up his armed forces and then invaded somewhere like Moldova.
Still unopposed he would have done the same with The Baltic States and who knows wherever else.

History has shown us time and time again that this is what power hungry dictators do.
Appeasing them does not work.

..... he attacked Ukraine thinking it was going to be just another month of war with very few bullets fired, and he was so wrong and now is stuck.

He has two hopes left; that his threat of using nuclear weapons works and/or that the US withdraws all aid and support.

At this point best thing for Russia to do is claim a victory and move on however Putin wants to pitch it to his citizens '

UK and France are talking about boots on the ground USA-France-UK have given permission to use long range Missiles and talks of giving Ukraine a Nuke .

He can't stop the storm coming He might as well call it a victory and move on - Everyone has called his Nuclear bluff - Theres no way he wants to live in a bunker for the rest of his life nukes are not going to happen everyone knows this .

originally posted by: Ravenwatcher

At this point best thing for Russia to do is claim a victory and move on however Putin wants to pitch it to his citizens '

Right now Putin is stuck. Either he keeps going for years and even if he takes Ukraine, he will need 3 million troops to maintain the occupation and the sanctions will not be lifted.

He just needs an out to this mess he created and his only road to an end is to claim victory and keep the Donbas area with a land bridge to Crimea

a reply to: Xtrozero

Yes. He needs to take the "win" and try to sell it to his people.

But, I fear that his ego and craving to be the next Peter the Great won't let him.

This War needs to end, without selling out Ukraine completely.

originally posted by: Oldcarpy2
a reply to: Tolkien

You did sign up for certain security obligations towards Ukraine, though?

No one wants a War with Russia, although Russia is constantly threatening the West with nukes.

The US and the West ALREADY gave $100s of BILLIONS, and THEY still lost the war.
Ukraine is so out of soldiers that they are kidnapping their own citizens off the streets.

Out of soldiers=war is lost

No one promised Ukraine a bottomless pit of money nor the lives of OUR citizens for THEIR war.

a reply to: Tolkien

Lives of whose citizens?

Out of soldiers?

Then why does Russia have to get in NK soldiers and Yeminis?

No need to shout in capitals, I'm not deaf.

originally posted by: Tolkien

originally posted by: Oldcarpy2
a reply to: Tolkien

You did sign up for certain security obligations towards Ukraine, though?

No one wants a War with Russia, although Russia is constantly threatening the West with nukes.

The US and the West ALREADY gave $100s of BILLIONS, and THEY still lost the war.
Ukraine is so out of soldiers that they are kidnapping their own citizens off the streets.

Out of soldiers=war is lost

No one promised Ukraine a bottomless pit of money nor the lives of OUR citizens for THEIR war.

War is not lost Russia has lost many more soldiers MANY and had to bring in North Koreans unless he gets another up of North Korean soldiers it's over I'm surprised that Poland isn't swimming in NK defectors. Russia needs to bow out save some pride claim a victory and move on ,

originally posted by: Oldcarpy2
a reply to: Tolkien

Lives of whose citizens?

Out of soldiers?

Then why does Russia have to get in NK soldiers and Yeminis?

No need to shout in capitals, I'm not deaf.

Read slower.

Ukraine is out of soldiers

I strongly oppose Western/US soldiers wasting their lives in a 1918-style trench warfare war, that is already clearly lost, even if you refuse to see it.

a reply to: Tolkien

Which Western/US soldiers are you talking about?

None are there officially, only volunteers, of their free will.

That's their choice.

What's that got to do with your opinions?

Again, if Ukraine is "out of soldiers" Russia would be in Kyiv. They are not.

So, why does Russia have to press gang NKs and Yeminis, not to mention emptying their prisons.

Did you miss Russia conscripting folk?

Get Ready! Here comes The NWO ❗️❗️

They're starting to butter-up the Public

Get Ready For a ‘Wartime Scenario’ in Europe and Be Wary of Russia and China, Top NATO Officer Warns

Europeans must be ready to sacrifice some “luxuries” to pay to support Ukraine and to prevent a “wartime scenario” coming to the nations of the continent if they are insufficiently prepared, NATO’s most senior military officer said in a speech namechecking both Russia and China as threats.

a reply to: xuenchen

Corrupt U.S. leaders made boatloads of $$$ for their families via Ukraine kickbacks. I'm sure they don't want a major war starting. Their families won't get a chance to enjoy the billions of stolen dollars.