Critical shortcomings of the Patriot complex

originally posted by: CriticalStinker
a reply to: YouSir

whereas in Ukraine The western Ukrainians were killing Russians in Eastern Ukraine...for 8...eight...years...before Russia decided to put a stop to the slaughter...

Was that conflict unprovoked, or did Russia start instigating in the region after they took Crimea to make a land bridge?

Ummm...no...it was provoked by the eastward expansion of NATO after they agreed to not one more inch of eastward expansion...it was provoked by Obama and Victoria Nuland...and the CIA plotting instigating and performing another one of their...color...revolutions...It was provoked by the Coup of the elected government of Ukraine subsequent to the US's infiltration of and support for the radical elements in Ukrainian society...

So...no...the conflict certainly wasn't...unprovoked...

I'm disappointed in you my friend...I thought you were much more astute than you've been sounding...

Shame really...



YouSir

a reply to: YouSir

My friend, where do such depressive thoughts come from? Don't be sad. Despondency is a mortal sin, it is the victory of the devil over a person, his essence. You have a wonderful life, friends, loved ones. Life is wonderful.
I have switched, but not yet, to DI. There is not a very convenient admin panel for publications, you need to get used to it. Come there. Although there are many old Brits from ATS, but they are not an obstacle to our communication)))))

a reply to: YouSir

I’ve never found any record that there was an agreement for no NATO expansion when the USSR fell. The closest thing I can find that is solidified as fact is the quote you posted by James Baker, the then Secretary of State. But a Secretary of State can’t make promises for future administrations.

Also Viktor Yanukovych won his election on the platform he would bring Ukraine into the EU. He almost did just that, and at the eleventh hour had a meeting with Putin and reneged on joining the EU, which the people elected him to do. So I don’t find it farfetched that the citizens would be outraged. The one piece of caveat I’d give is the Russians did have leverage because of some loans at the time.

But, I’ll meet you half way and say it’s certainly nuanced. I don’t discount the west having an interest in Ukraine, but I don’t suppose that’s too different than Russian interests in Cuba and Venezuela.

At the end of the day, we have two imperfect countries with questionable track records of foreign policy. But one only has North Korea, Iran, Belarus, and China as allies, so that kind of tells me where they are ideologically.

a reply to: CriticalStinker

First, the Teutonic Knights expanded to the East. They were defeated on the ice of Lake Peipus by Saint Prince Alexander Nevsky.

Then the Catholic hordes of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth expanded to the East. It ended with their lands becoming part of the Russian Empire.

Then Napoleon decided to expand to the East, along with all of Europe. It ended with Russian Cossacks filling Paris, taking several European capitals along the way.

Then, already in the 20th century, Emperor Wilhelm II decided to expand to the East. Due to the revolution in Russia, he first achieved the occupation of Ukraine, but then also disappeared.

The next one to decide to expand to the East was Hitler. As a result, the Russian army defeated the most powerful army in the world, entered and liberated many European capitals.

Now the new Reich, the Fifth, has also decided to expand to the East.

Are you masochists? We can repeat it! )))))

a reply to: RussianTroll

I guess the difference is how the expansions happened.

Russia, and Europe expanded through conquering and occupying.

NATO and EU is by invincible. Poland looks to be doing pretty well after they leaned more west.

But right now it’s Russia moving west, not Europe moving east. And it looks to be far more taxing than a three day/week war that Russia originally anticipated.

That also hurts the narrative that the west meddled with Ukraine and installed puppets ect. If that were the case I imagine Ukraine would have immediately fell.

Yet they’ve held Russia at bay and kept relatively static lines without having a navy, much of an Air Force, all while being smaller in population, size, and economy. I’ll give you they got some hand me downs and aid, but surely it still takes a lot of conviction to keep an invader out.

So why is it that they want to keep Russia out so bad? Maybe they remember how it was to be under their rule just a few decades back.

a reply to: CriticalStinker

The Russians don't care at all how you want to carry out your expansions. You come to our lands, we give you a punch in the teeth. We are very tempted to end your expansions once and for all.

a reply to: RussianTroll

Ukraine is a sovereign nation.

Its not Russian land, but Ukrainian land.

As to expansion well see what happened with Sweden and Finland.

You more than doubled your own borders with NATO nations no matter what happens in Ukraine by way of your failed invasion.

Smart thinking Mr Putin.

Now where the thinly veiled threats are concerned, tempted to ignore those.

a reply to: RussianTroll

When was the last time a western country expanded?

If you count NATO expansion, keep in mind they join voluntarily and can leave just as easy as they came. Not sure that fits the definition of expansion in the state sense.

a reply to: CriticalStinker

The Fifth Reich of Europe is trying to expand to the East at the moment.

History lesson

Gets glossed over quickly so often



Carry On

a reply to: RussianTroll

And yet it's Russia thats pressing ever closer toward the West by way of invading her Ukrainian Neighbour.

Go figure.

originally posted by: MetalThunder
History lesson

Get glossed over quickly so often

Carry On

Thanks. I didn't know that))))))

a reply to: MetalThunder

To be fair though regarding Wernher von Braun and a few others.

The Russians had their own version of "Operation Paperclip" on the board.

And scooped up those they deemed necessary or were too important to imprison/hang.

That unfortunately is just how the world works when nations fall and regimes change.

Blame our respective alphabet agencies for that sort of nonsense.

Which arguable and unpalatable as it may be won you the race to the Moon.

a reply to: RussianTroll

List of mass graves from Soviet mass executions

en.m.wikipedia.org...

Ukraine



Bykivnia Graves near Kyiv contain an estimated 30,000.[10]
There are other mass graves in Uman, Bila Tserkva, Cherkasy and Zhytomyr.[11]
9,432 corpses were exhumed following the Vinnytsia massacre.[12]
As in Russia and elsewhere, these sites keep appearing, e.g. a mass grave found in 2002 under the floor of a Ukrainian monastery.[

Putin worked as a KGB foreign intelligence officer for 16 years, rising to the rank of lieutenant colonel before resigning in 1991 to begin a political career in Saint Petersburg.

en.m.wikipedia.org...#:~:text=From%201985%20to%201990%2C%20he,reportedly%20promoted%20to%20lieutenant%20colonel.

At least the USA gets a new administration every 4 or eight years.

originally posted by: RussianTroll
a reply to: CriticalStinker

The Fifth Reich of Europe is trying to expand to the East at the moment.

It’s a good thing that Russia, the North Koreans, and Iran have teamed up in the name of freedom, and combatting authoritarianism.

The ussr in ww2 was on the brink of destruction the nazis had taken almost all inhabited land.
The ussr produced tanks that would last at most a few days just to be able to hold a line. These tanks would also often kill their inhabitants due to having no heating.

The ussr bled millions of troops just to hold a few miles of land and still failed to keep it.

Even after winter came and bogged down their troops the nazi held ground till it was over then began to take ground afterwards.

It was only after lend lease and the usa entering the war that the ussr was able to begin winning against the nazis.
Did the soviets win? Without a doubt and thats what matters in the end. But dont paint it as a flawless victory that you should be proud of. Learn from it and be humbled by it.

Greatest military? Dont make me laugh were the nazis a superpower? Yea but they were dwarfed by the usa in terms of power.

Just to be clear here i am no nazi supporter nor sympathetic to their cause, i am more interested in historical facts and learning about how events happend

I really didnt have anything to say on this thread mainly cause i want the war to end and for the usa to stop supporting Ukraine. But once you proudly proclaimed historical events as being something other than facts i had to comment.

I will say that i dont know as much on the other ones that you mentioned so i cannot comment on those.

As for russian resiliency i do have to commend them on that as the russian people have survived many invasions and they also survived communism.
a reply to: RussianTroll

originally posted by: coldisbest118

the russian people have survived many invasions and they also survived communism.
a reply to: RussianTroll

Not the ones placed in mass graves under Soviet Rule?

all i got to say is have a look at this,

Click on the list of each to get a picture of each individual captured or destroyed vehicle. the date on the article is when it was first published. each picture is documented with the date confirmed. there is a Ukrainian page to.

Russia - 18635, of which: destroyed: 13790, damaged: 812, abandoned: 1051, captured: 2982

Losses excluding Recon Drones and Trucks - 14465, of which: destroyed: 10521, damaged: 713, abandoned: 1002, captured: 2229

Losses of Armoured Combat Vehicles [Tanks, AFVs, IFVs, APCs, and MRAPs] - 10576, of which: destroyed: 7755, damaged: 368, abandoned: 925, captured: 1528


Tanks (3495, of which destroyed: 2432, damaged: 158, abandoned: 374, captured: 531)

Armoured Fighting Vehicles (1686, of which destroyed: 1274, damaged: 36, abandoned: 105, captured: 271

Infantry Fighting Vehicles (4821, of which destroyed: 3642, damaged: 151, abandoned: 405, captured: 623)

Armoured Personnel Carriers (518, of which destroyed: 368, damaged: 18, abandoned: 40, captured: 92)

Mine-Resistant Ambush Protected (MRAP) Vehicles (56, of which destroyed: 39, damaged: 5, abandoned: 1, captured: 11)

Towed Artillery (416, of which destroyed: 257, damaged: 57, abandoned: 5, captured: 97

Self-Propelled Artillery (843, of which destroyed: 681, damaged: 47, abandoned: 6, captured: 109)

Multiple Rocket Launchers (431, of which destroyed: 338, damaged: 37, abandoned: 2, captured: 54

Aircraft (129, of which destroyed: 114, damaged: 15)

Helicopters (146, of which destroyed: 114, damaged: 30, captured: 2)

Unmanned Combat Aerial Vehicles (18, of which destroyed: 14, damaged: 1, captured: 3

Reconnaissance Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (486, of which destroyed: 310, abandoned: 1, captured: 175)

russian equipment loses

Ukraine - 6867, of which: destroyed: 4906, damaged: 538, abandoned: 318, captured: 1105 Losses excluding Recon Drones and Trucks - 5468, of which: destroyed: 3877, damaged: 506, abandoned: 303, captured: 782 Losses of Armoured Combat Vehicles [Tanks, AFVs, IFVs, APCs, and MRAPs] - 3331, of which: destroyed: 2359, damaged: 219, abandoned: 261, captured: 492
www.oryxspioenkop.com..." target="_blank" class="postlink">Ukrainian Loses

i think this answers the question on who's has junk and who has superior fire power. and now russia is bringing nk troops.

a reply to: CriticalStinker

I am glad that you are so critical of the dictatorship that now rules the West.
Free and sovereign nations of the world are now uniting around Russia.
Soon there will be no NATO or EU, but BRICS!

a reply to: Lazy88

Have you forgotten about the mass graves of Indians in America, Irish in Britain, and Irish children in Catholic monasteries in Canada?