Critical shortcomings of the Patriot complex

Hello ATS!

NATO's war against Russia in Ukraine, as well as Iran's attacks on Israel, have revealed critical shortcomings of the much-hyped Patriot complex. Let's leave aside the Arab-Israeli conflict with satellite images of the Israeli Nevatim air base, hit by 30 Iranian missiles. Let's focus on the conflict in Ukraine.

Recently, the business newspaper "Vzglyad" in Russia published an analytical article entitled "The American Patriot is powerless in Ukraine due to congenital defects", which describes what flaws were revealed in the "patriot" as a result of the war in Ukraine. In this article, I do not reveal any military secrets. our specialists know, your specialists know, and our specialists know that your specialists know.)))

So

"The rate of destruction of American Patriot air defense missile systems in Ukraine has increased recently. Last week alone, at least two Patriot launchers were destroyed. The special operation revealed the inherent design defects of these air defense systems - and how Russian strike systems use them.

"The Iskander-M OTRK crew launched missile strikes on the position of the Patriot air defense missile system division... As a result of the strike,... a Patriot air defense missile system launcher and personnel of the Ukrainian Armed Forces air defense missile system division were destroyed," the Russian Defense Ministry said in a statement on October 9.

The next day, the Ministry of Defense reported that "two Patriot air defense missile system launchers" had been hit. Two more launchers of this air defense system were reported destroyed, for example, in August. Thus, before us are examples of the regular destruction of the most advanced and long-range air defense systems of Western manufacture, provided to the Kyiv regime. As a rule, Iskander-M missiles are used to solve this combat task.

And in September, a document of the Kiel Institute of World Economy entitled "Readiness for war in decades: the slow rearmament of Europe and Germany in comparison with Russia" was distributed in Germany. It states, in particular: "the overall effectiveness of the Ukrainian air defense interception of missiles is 30%, and drones - 66%".

In small print, "approximate interception figures" are given based on data from "Ukrainian sources". Among other things, it is stated there that Ukrainian air defense systems in total intercept only "4% of modern ballistic missiles, for example, the Iskander-M".

But it is the MIM-104 Patriot complex that is primarily designed to combat Russian Iskanders. And now it turns out that the Ukrainian military themselves admit that the vaunted American air defense system is almost completely useless against them. Why does this SAM system show such low efficiency?

The whole point is that the Patriot has many congenital defects.
It is, so to speak, genetically defective for solving such tasks. And the Americans, supplying the Kyiv regime with this anti-aircraft missile system, were well aware of the dubious qualities of this weapons system.

First of all, for accurate shooting at ballistic and hypersonic targets, which include the Kinzhal, Zircon, and Iskander-M missiles, this system must use target designation from a special satellite. Without it, the chances of detecting and hitting such targets are small.

However, these satellites use a low orbit and cannot hang over the desired point all the time. The schedule of these satellites passing over the special operation zone is known to Russian intelligence with high accuracy.

There is no problem in striking with the Iskander at the moment of the gap between passes - which means immediately depriving the Patriot of a significant share of its capabilities.
It is also worth paying attention to the features of the Patriot radar system. Depending on the modification, the Patriot battery can include the AN/MPQ-53 radar or the more modern AN/MPQ-65. The first has a maximum viewing angle of 1-73 degrees, the second 1-83. In any case, a "dead funnel" is formed above the system that is not visible to it. A zone inaccessible for missile guidance.

In addition, there is another similar zone, this time due to the dynamic properties of the Patriot anti-aircraft missile. When firing at aerodynamic targets, this system has a near boundary of the kill zone of 3 km. As the target speed increases, it will move away. The missile structurally lacks the reserve of overloads that it must develop in order to fit into the guidance trajectory.

But all Russian ballistic and aeroballistic missiles dive at the target at large angles, up to 90 degrees, in the final section. That is, they are guaranteed to hit through a dead funnel. The Patriot SAM has no chance of hitting them.

Thus, one Patriot SAM launcher is not capable of protecting itself, which means that it must be covered by another air defense system, for example, the same Patriot. "Mutual cover" must be organized. In the conditions of a total shortage of air defense systems in Ukraine, this cannot be ensured.

The Patriot radar has another weakness, this time when firing at aerodynamic targets at extremely low altitudes - at Geraniums and cruise missiles (Kalibr, Kh-101, etc.). The AN/MPQ-65 cannot, as they say in air defense, "put the beam on the horizon." In other words, see low-flying targets that almost merge with the horizon.

The minimum beam elevation angle above the horizon for this radar is one degree. If it is less, the level of interference from local objects will be too high and its receiver will be overloaded, that is, the radar will not see the target. This means that at a distance of, say, 30 km from the complex's position, targets will be visible at an altitude of at least 500 m, 10 km - at least 175 m. And our cruise missiles and Geraniums fly at altitudes of 100 m and lower, that is, they will be detected no closer than 5.7 km. Accordingly, the kill zone at extremely low altitudes of this miracle of American engineering will be like that of a simple MANPADS.

Incidentally, against Geraniums and Kalibrs, oddly enough, the Patriot is especially defenseless in this case. And all because three types of missiles were delivered to Ukraine: PAC-2 GEM/T (aka MIM-104D), PAC-2 GEM+ (aka MIM-104E) and PAC-3 MSE (aka MIM-104F). All three types of missiles are optimized to hit ballistic targets, they have corresponding warheads, and the PAC-3 MSE even has a special kinetic interceptor. This leads to a sharp decrease in the probability of hitting aerodynamic targets - that is, cruise missiles and drones.

However, the Patriot is hampered in the fight against ballistic targets by another design problem - the inclined launch of anti-aircraft guided missiles (SAM). The missile can only fire at the target that is in the direction of the launcher's inclination. Yes, if you arrange the launchers in a certain way, the Patriot can also provide a circular fire. But in the end, each launcher will be able to fire only in one direction - and the others will not be able to help it.

It is worth recalling that on the Russian S-300/400 air defense systems, missiles are launched vertically and then inclined towards the target. This means that the entire ammunition load can be used completely regardless of which side the targets are attacked from. Thus, the complete destruction of the MIM-104 Patriot air defense missile systems delivered to Ukraine is ultimately inevitable. The inherent design features simply do not allow it to effectively combat either Russian ballistic and cruise missiles or UAVs.

The Americans, by the way, understand all this very well. That is why they have been developing a replacement for the Patriots for many years now, together with Germany and Italy, the new MEADS (Medium Extended Air Defense System). However, the main one in it should also be the modernized MIM-104F (PAC3 MSE) missile and the additional IRIS-T SLM with an enlarged launch engine for low-altitude targets. This means that all the main problems of the Patriot will remain in the future."

Thank you

a reply to: RussianTroll

I lack the technical expertise to pass comment on the performance of the Patriot system other than to say its the first I've heard of such negative assessments.

The only things I can comment on is first of all, NATO isn't at war with Russia or anyone. NATO countries are providing aid and support to Ukraine in its attempt to repel invaders and protect its independence.
Secondly, its nice to see you acknowledge that there is a war and not a Special Military Operation.

Hope all is good with you?

a reply to: Freeborn

No one in the world believes in the fairy tales that NATO "is not fighting Russia" in Ukraine for a long time now. This was perfectly demonstrated by the BRICS world summit currently taking place in Kazan.

a reply to: RussianTroll

I dont think NATO is fighting Russia and I'm someone so................

a reply to: RussianTroll

I deliberately stayed on topic and only commented on the content of your OP.

How did the BRICS summit prove that NATO is actively involved in Ukraine other than supplying and aiding Ukraine in its defence of its independence?

a reply to: RussianTroll

I don’t think anyone has a one size fits all air defense system.

There’s going to be weaknesses for platforms from certain forms of attack. That’s why Israel has the Iron Dome, David’s Sling, and Arrow.

Even then, like in Israel, a large wave will likely mean some make it through. These are physical munitions after all. If each battery has a few shots, but the ordinance coming in exceeds that, or the rate of failure, some will make it through.

Even if you’re dealing with an enemy that is less capable, they’ll often put their resources towards finding a weakness. We’ve seen that in almost every single war. No one is invincible and you will take some losses.

Russia hasn’t been able to protect their home territory from a country far smaller, no navy, vastly smaller air force ect. The US still took losses in the Middle East against terrorists with no formal military. Often it’s something a fraction of the price challenging something much more sophisticated.

It’s the nature of war, and more specifically asymmetrical warfare.

a reply to: CriticalStinker

The Israeli Kupol system is not discussed here. But judging by satellite images, Kupol was leaky even against Iranian ballistic missiles - more than 30 hits.

a reply to: RussianTroll

Who's satellite images?

a reply to: Freeborn

Maybe tomorrow I will publish the final documents of the BRICS meeting in Kazan. Of course, there are mainly economic decisions that destroy the Bretton Woods system. But there are many final decisions on Ukraine. Russia did not interfere with them, this is an initiative of the BRICS countries.

I appreciate your restraint)))

originally posted by: RussianTroll
a reply to: Freeborn

No one in the world believes in the fairy tales that NATO "is not fighting Russia" in Ukraine for a long time now. This was perfectly demonstrated by the BRICS world summit currently taking place in Kazan.

I'm not sure what propels Putin to want to continue this pointless war, other than he really hates military aged Russian kids. So much so that he kills the neighbors and uses his to do it, thus killing them. I'm sorry RT, I just can't buy into any aspect of this being a just war, or even a mildly good idea.

To think that one of the "greatest military minds" of our time, invaded a neighboring country, much smaller, much less military resources, but is stuck in a quagmire for years. Seems like it was poorly planned and poorly thought out. Unless perpetual war was the goal.

Yes war hawks are all giddy over this, as they can sell their products quickly and for whatever price they choose. But the tiny minority of people with both a brain and a conscience, are against war of any kind, just for the sake of not killing kids.
I think we could all do much better discussing our cultural differences, and similarities, and learning from them, rather than shooting at innocent folks, but not being a war hawk, I likely just don't get it.

originally posted by: RussianTroll
a reply to: CriticalStinker

The Israeli Kupol system is not discussed here. But judging by satellite images, Kupol was leaky even against Iranian ballistic missiles - more than 30 hits.

Out of 200, that’s about a 15% failure rate.

Considering they mostly came at once, I’d say that’s pretty impressive. It’s just one element of their overall aerial defense, and it got stressed as the other components couldn’t help against ballistic missiles, or were just far less effective since it’s not their purpose.

Patriot missiles are good because they’re portable, but again, they have a scope they are designed to deal with and can struggle with things outside that scope. It’s why US installations will have things like CRAM, Patriot, and maybe even THAD.

But you’re still only as safe as the amount of batteries you have ready to fire vs incoming ordinance. Just like a gun, you eventually have to reload.

I don’t see any evidence that the systems are “bad”. Again, nothing in war is invincible. If they were the war would be won, or never fought.

a reply to: network dude
It is not in the vicinity of Berlin or London that Russian tanks are burning, but in the Kursk region of Russia, Leopards and Challengers are burning. In addition, the whole world laughs at the fact that the Patriots are controlled by natives - Ukrainians. And you yourself do not believe it. By the way, recently in the Kursk region a Stryker was shot down, in which there were American servicemen, 8 people. You can see their list and photos here.

a reply to: RussianTroll

I'm not sure what you are trying to argue here. I just think war is something #tards do when they aren't smart enough to use logic. But yes, many NATO countries are helping Ukraine. They all see making Russia deplete their military resources, and military aged men as a good thing. I think a Russian kid has just as much worth in the world as any other kid, and I'd just like to see them not die. That is my only point in any of this. But if it makes you feel better, kill em all, and let God sort em out.

a reply to: network dude
So far, everything is happening the other way around. NATO is exhausting all its financial and military resources, the economy and standard of living are in recession, and the last Ukrainian men and women are being caught on the streets to recruit NATO into the army in Ukraine. And Russia is living its own life, an ordinary one. The economy and wages are growing at an unprecedented rate, there is no mobilization and there will be no mobilization, the entire country is helping the army, and tourists are vacationing in exotic countries ))))

a reply to: RussianTroll

if things are that good, it makes you wonder what the reason for perpetuating the war would be?

If Russia is doing great and not loosing people, then I suppose being at war with everyone is a brilliant move. Ukraine will not last forever, and Russia will have to either find a new country to invade, or go back to the USSR days, as being at war, based on your reporting here, is the only thing holding you up.

a reply to: network dude
It is very easy to stop the war. Putin talked about it in December 2021. Then everyone laughed. But now there is no laughter. Understand the logic of Putin's actions in everything. Initially, a proposal is made, it is not accepted. Then there are actions that greatly worsen the opponent's position. The opponent panics, but again does not agree to new demands that reflect his current situation. And so on until the end, until the opponent surrenders or dies. This is Judo, baby. Which Putin has a black belt.))))

a reply to: RussianTroll

By the way, recently in the Kursk region a Stryker was shot down, in which there were American servicemen, 8 people. You can see their list and photos here.

Those photos look like they were just available on the internet.

The only picture that attempted to serve as “proof” was a laminated piece of paper with dry erase marker of names. I could make that in my office right now.

There’s no evidence US troops were on Russian soil.

a reply to: RussianTroll

It is very easy to stop the war.

Just go back to your Russian permafrost and hang your heads in shame.

Count your losses whilst you still have anyone under pensionable age to do so.

That would work and end the war.

a reply to: CriticalStinker
You can evaluate these facts as you wish. But these are facts officially confirmed by the Russian Ministry of Defense. Only for now they are not advertised for reasons unknown to me. The time will come, everything will be presented.