Thousands of Ukrainians are fleeing to Russia: the FSB is weeding them out

a reply to: Imhere

"I’m an American and have been posting on this site for well over a decade."

So?

a reply to: Freeborn

And most importantly of all Ukrainians consider themselves to be Ukrainian, they want to be independent and have no desire whatsoever to experience Russian subjugation, again.

Wrong. That's what the western propaganda says.

They didn't have any say in the matter - Putin invaded Ukraine, NOT the other way round.

They did have a say in the matter. For example they could've chosen to stay neutral between russia and west. But no, they wanted to work with enemies of russia. What was russia supposed to do, sit there and wait until usa, uk and many more totally friendly countries surrounds it with their bases? Oh wait...

So, again; do you think there are any similarities between The Republic of Ireland and its independence and Ukrainian independence?
Perhaps you may even elaborate and try to explain your answer?

Absolutely zero similarities between them. "Irish" people existed way before "ireland" was founded. Where were "ukrainians" before 1991 and what were they called? Among many other things, they were also called russians. Unlike irish people "ukrainians" are just a bunch of people gathered together in what's called "ukraine" nowadays and these people include russians too. And now russians are forced to fight against russians because *checks notes* oh yeah putin attacked ukraine because he is just a big evil meanie for no reason whatsoever. There is nothing else to see here.

a reply to: jofafot

Wrong. That's what the western propaganda says.

And how do you know its wrong?
Because Kremlin fuelled Russian propaganda says so?

They did have a say in the matter. For example they could've chosen to stay neutral between russia and west.

Russia and 'The West' aren't at war.
Ukraine is an independent country - independent countries get to choose whatever policies they like free from external pressure or influence.
NATO had no bases in Ukraine and Ukraine had been been told quite emphatically that it had no chance whatsoever of becoming a member of NATO for at least another 25 years.

Obviously all that changed the moment Putin ordered the invasion of a non-threatening independent nation.

But no, they wanted to work with enemies of russia.

Russian paranoia.
As I said, NATO is NOT at war with Russia and has no desire to be so.
Up until Russia invaded Ukraine - and vindicated a lot of countries concerns about Russian aggression - no-one really cared about what Russia did.

What was russia supposed to do, sit there and wait until usa, uk and many more totally friendly countries surrounds it with their bases? Oh wait...

All of those ex-Russian satellite and Warsaw Pact countries that have joined the EU and/or NATO have done so by choice. They approached EU/NATO of their own free will.
Perhaps you would be better served asking yourself why that is?
Why did they choose closer relations with 'The West' rather than Russia?

originally posted by: Oldcarpy2
a reply to: Imhere

"I’m an American and have been posting on this site for well over a decade."

So?

So why are you acting aloof?

It’s funny how it’s mainly a few vocal British posters here or anti-Trumpers that are having crocodile tears for Zelensky while holding little Ukrainian flags. Where as a lot of us Americans here aren’t that naive. We know the situation/history is complex over there and don’t appreciate our money being tossed into the corrupted Ukrainian dumpster fire over there.

While the corrupted regime in Ukraine pockets it. And losing ground daily.

Period.

Charsiv Yar is about to fall along with Toretsk. And south of it Krasnohorivka. And Kostiantynivka.

But you’ll be the first one to pop up here soon saying they were some “Pyrrhic victory”

Like you did when you were holding with Bakhmut last year. “Bakhmut holds!” etc. when it was clear it was folding last weeks leading into it.

That’s incompetence on your part.

You mentioned “azov” and Bandera which you like to brush off and support. Well, obviously azov is a concern since we banned them in 2015-16 as a radical nationalist Nazi militia.

Chants of Stepan Bandera etc. You know, the kind folk that had American/British etc in a Stalag like the one in Kherson WW2.

Hell, even Facebook banned the Azov movement lol

Although it banned the Azov movement and its leaders more than a year ago, Facebook continues to profit from ads placed by the far-right organization as recently as Monday.

Since July, Azov, which sprung up during the Russian invasion in 2014, has opened at least a dozen new Facebook pages. Alla Zasyadko, a 25-year-old member, has used one to place 82 ads on the social network, paying Facebook at least $3,726, according to the platform’s ad library. Many of the ads called for street protests against the Ukrainian government. One of the ads encourages children to sign up for a patriotic youth training course. Similar courses have included firearms training.

www.buzzfeednews.com...

a reply to: Imhere

Where as a lot of us Americans here aren’t that naive.

Isolationism isn't naive?
Appeasement isn't naive?

Sure.🙄

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: Imhere

Where as a lot of us Americans here aren’t that naive.

Isolationism isn't naive?
Appeasement isn't naive?

Sure.🙄

No amount of Russian hatred or being scared of Russia overrides where you start cheering and funding Stepan Bandera Nazi ss fanatics.

You can’t deny the prick had U.S. and British in a stalag in Kherson overlooking with the losers in WW2 and was a Nazi SS.

And you wanna talk about real deal American loyalty?

It’s not about appeasement, it’s about stopping the escalation and the bs dumpster fire that was gaslighted.

As an American I’m not afraid of Russia. But know/ try having common courtesy not to be a dipsh*t in their backyard either or anyone else’s. We have things here to fix and focus on. The funding to an ongoing corrupted regime in Ukraine dumpster fire and unnecessary escalation against a super nuclear power like Russia is counterproductive. It just leads to a bad scenario for earth. For both parties and everyone else.

a reply to: Imhere

Isolationism has never worked out very well for the USA or anyone else in the past, why would it now?
Appeasing bullies and aggressors never works in any walk of life, never has and never will.

And it doesn't matter how you try to sugar coat it or spin it that is exactly what you are advocating.

We have our own issues to deal with over here, which is pretty bloody evident at present, but we can't just switch off from the world in general. Most of those problems we face have been the result of failing to address core issues and kicking the can down the road.

Caving in to Putin's aggression in Ukraine now will only delay the inevitable.

I'm not going to engage in your obsession with Bandera and Nazi's - that's been dealt with time and time again and still you repeat it.

a reply to: Imhere

I’m an American and have been posting on this site for well over a decade.

ooh,oohh. Is that the game now!

Welll, I'm Britsh and have been posting for nearly 20 years now......

Who's next??

Glad you’re acknowledging the rampant corruption with the officials in Ukraine.

You seem to forget that all the countries left over from the USSR collapse have suffered massive corruption by ex-USSR politicians and oligarchs, with them all fighting to clean up their acts to some degree or other after obtaining their independence from Russia.
Talking of Russia, how about you tell us all how the corruption is measuring up compared to others, you seem so keen on calling it out?

a reply to: jofafot

Like I posted for you on the last page. a little history lesson would help you....

originally posted by: Kurokage
a reply to: jofafot

CONVENIENTLY forget russians were living in "ukraine" way before "ukrainians" existed.

You should maybe read a bit of History...

It is uncertain how the state of Kievan Rus' came to be, but the Varangian nobleman Oleg the Wise is generally credited with having established a principality at the city of Kiev somewhere around the year 880. Kiev had already been established, but its origins are nebulous as well. According to archaeologists and historians such as Petro Tolochko (2007), Slavic settlement existed from the end of the 5th century in the area that later developed into the city. Kiev may have paid tribute to the Khazars before Oleg conquered it.

Russia evolved out Kievan Rus', so if you really wanted to bepedantic Kiev owns Russia and not the other way......

a reply to: Imhere

"You mentioned “azov” and Bandera which you like to brush off and support."

I don't "support" either, just bored with you banging on about them.

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: stonerwilliam

.....and the way he is imposing dictatorship powers on Ukraine.

What 'dictatorship powers'?

Banning elections , killing opponents, jailing and killing journalists , and banning the Russian language and religious practise .

Suprised the men of Ukraine are not out to get him or are following his orders after forcibly taking old men ,pregnant women and kids with downs syndrome etc to the front line meat grinder .

I would love to put a bullet in his noggin for the amount of destruction the gay little twat has caused to Christian countries

a reply to: stonerwilliam

Faking elections , killing opponents, jailing and killing journalists , and banning the Russian opposition and democratic practise .

Suprised the men of Russia are not out to get him or are following his orders after forcibly taking old men ,pregnant women and kids with downs syndrome etc to the front line meat grinder .

I would love to put a bullet in his noggin for the amount of destruction the gay little twat has caused to Christian countries

Here, I corrected it for you. Because you must have meant Putin right? Such a minor slip of the tongue. Even the US president can make it.

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: jofafot

Wrong. That's what the western propaganda says.

And how do you know its wrong?
Because Kremlin fuelled Russian propaganda says so?

They did have a say in the matter. For example they could've chosen to stay neutral between russia and west.

Russia and 'The West' aren't at war.
Ukraine is an independent country - independent countries get to choose whatever policies they like free from external pressure or influence.
NATO had no bases in Ukraine and Ukraine had been been told quite emphatically that it had no chance whatsoever of becoming a member of NATO for at least another 25 years.

Obviously all that changed the moment Putin ordered the invasion of a non-threatening independent nation.

But no, they wanted to work with enemies of russia.

Russian paranoia.
As I said, NATO is NOT at war with Russia and has no desire to be so.
Up until Russia invaded Ukraine - and vindicated a lot of countries concerns about Russian aggression - no-one really cared about what Russia did.

What was russia supposed to do, sit there and wait until usa, uk and many more totally friendly countries surrounds it with their bases? Oh wait...

All of those ex-Russian satellite and Warsaw Pact countries that have joined the EU and/or NATO have done so by choice. They approached EU/NATO of their own free will.
Perhaps you would be better served asking yourself why that is?
Why did they choose closer relations with 'The West' rather than Russia?

"And how do you know its wrong?
Because Kremlin fuelled Russian propaganda says so? "
I know it because I have a thing called common sense.
I don't need to be a genius to know that statement "And most importantly of all Ukrainians consider themselves to be Ukrainian" is simply wrong. "Ukrainian" is not race, it is a nationality and there are "ukrainians" who would rather want ukraine(as a piece of land, even if partly) to belong to russia.

"Russia and 'The West' aren't at war."
"As I said, NATO is NOT at war with Russia and has no desire to be so."
Remind me again, why was nato created and by who? Which countries are members of nato?

"Ukraine is an independent country"
It is about as independent as *insert any poor african country here*. If it doesn't obey west's wishes russia will annex it. If it obey's west's wishes it will be in so much debt to the west they'll never ever economically recover from this war completely(assuming they somehow win it).

"NATO had no bases in Ukraine and Ukraine had been been told quite emphatically that it had no chance whatsoever of becoming a member of NATO for at least another 25 years."
Oh sure, there is just a minor problem. Drones and spy planes that belong to USA are flying around war zones and providing intel to "ukrainian" forces every day. That was happening even before this war broke out. You do know before the war broke out russia and ukraine were already doing rocket/artillery/air strikes against each other, right?

"Perhaps you would be better served asking yourself why that is?
Why did they choose closer relations with 'The West' rather than Russia?"
Western propaganda machine working well. When you were writing this question didn't you feel something is wrong with it? Have you ever seen someone praise russia and not immediately got labeled as a "communist" etc? I didn't, and that's how I know people got brainwashed to hate russia. I mean, sure russia is partly to blame too, it is absolutely normal to see things for what they are. But when you see everything russia does wrong, when you find something wrong, something to hate in everything russia does, what else could it be but brainwashing?

a reply to: jofafot

The "English" are not a race, we are a nationality. Same with "Americans", and so on.

Got a problem with that, too?

No one hates the Russian people (who aren't a "race" either).

Lots have hatred and contempt for their leaders.

Judging by your posts, the hate is all yours.

a reply to: jofafot

"Ukrainian" is not race, it is a nationality

Of course its a nationality, I don't think anyone has suggested anything else.
Do you know what nationality means?
Belonging to a nation - Ukrainians come from and belong to Ukraine, which is a nation.
Ukraine isn't Russia, Ukrainians aren't Russian.

I'm glad you agree.

Remind me again, why was nato created and by who?

To counter Soviet expansionism and it's obvious who it was 'created' by - its founder members.

Which countries are members of nato?

Lots of countries, I suspect they all have their own reasoning why they wanted to join.
One common and recurrent reason is fear of Russian aggression and expansionism.....obviously justified considering its invasion of its non-threatening neighbour Ukraine.

Drones and spy planes that belong to USA are flying around war zones and providing intel to "ukrainian" forces every day.

That's because Russia invaded Ukraine for no moral or legal reason.
If Russia hadn't invaded there would be no drones 'flying around' and there would be no war and still no NATO bases or involvement in Ukraine.

If Russia pulls out of Ukraine to the previous internationally recognised borders there will be no more drones and no more killing - pretty straight forward really isn't it.

So you honestly believe it was 'Western propaganda' that made all those ex-Soviet satellite and Warsaw Pact countries voluntarily want and choose to join NATO - and to continue to be members?
It has nothing to do with their previous experiences of Russian control and domination?
It has nothing to do with their fear of Russian aggression?
It has nothing to do with their choice to be independent and to be free to make their own decisions?
It has nothing to do with their desire not to be subjugated to Russian control.....again?

I could go on, but surely if you ask yourself those questions and answer them honestly I think you may then get an idea of why Ukraine is fighting so hard to repel the Russian invasion and why there is a continued need for NATO.
I doubt you will though.

a reply to: Freeborn

And Finland and Sweden. Because? Putin.

originally posted by: Oldcarpy2
No one hates the Russian people...
...Lots have hatred and contempt for their leaders...

Oh, you only hate their leaders, who are chosen by them, willingly. You totally don't hate russians as a whole. Similar to how:
You didn't hate iraqi's, only their "leaders" and that's why thousands of iraqi people died.
You didn't hate libyan's, only their "leaders" and that's why thousands of libyan people died.
You didn't hate syrian's, only their "leaders" and that's why thousands of syrian people died.
You didn't hate egyptian's, only their "leaders" andthat's why thousands of egyptians died.
You don't hate iranian's, only their "leaders" and that's why you support israelies kill iranians whenever they feel like it.

originally posted by: Oldcarpy2
Judging by your posts, the hate is all yours.

Judging by which posts? I don't remember taking a side, but I do remember speaking against western brainwashing/propaganda. Am I hateful because I don't drink/believe all that?

originally posted by: Freeborn
Belonging to a nation - Ukrainians come from and belong to Ukraine

"ukrainians" didn't exist before "ukraine" became a thing in 1991. You can't be seriously thinking atleast a part of these so called "ukrainians" are actually aren't russians who tootally agree with their fellow "ukrainians", both about the current war and about who the lands belong to?

originally posted by: Freeborn
I'm glad you agree.

I didn't agree with you though.

originally posted by: Freeborn
To counter Soviet expansionism and it's obvious who it was 'created' by - its founder members.


Lots of countries, I suspect they all have their own reasoning why they wanted to join.
One common and recurrent reason is fear of Russian aggression and expansionism.....obviously justified considering its invasion of its non-threatening neighbour Ukraine.

So nato is not at war with russia despite currently doing everything it can to fight against russia not to mention being created to fight against russia? Nato IS at war with russia. I don't care if you only believe in formal declarations of war or not. It is what it is.

That's because Russia invaded Ukraine for no moral or legal reason.
If Russia hadn't invaded there would be no drones 'flying around' and there would be no war and still no NATO bases or involvement in Ukraine.

"for no moral or legal reason". That right there is brainwashing. You are programmed to think that way. Not a single country on earth invades another country because "let's just do it for no reason lol xD". By the way did you miss the part about when I wrote about before the war broke out? It was already happening. Drones were there and little battles/skirmishes/shelling/bombing/whatever you want to call it were already happening even before war broke out. Please read before replying.

If Russia pulls out of Ukraine to the previous internationally recognised borders there will be no more drones and no more killing - pretty straight forward really isn't it.

If usa stopped aggressively surrounding russia with their military bases this war wouldn't even broke out. If you told your government(s) to stop their agressive behavior this war wouldn't happen at all. But here we are. But it is somehow always russia's fault, isn't it?

So you honestly believe it was 'Western propaganda' that made all those ex-Soviet satellite and Warsaw Pact countries voluntarily want and choose to join NATO - and to continue to be members?
It has nothing to do with their previous experiences of Russian control and domination?
It has nothing to do with their fear of Russian aggression?
It has nothing to do with their choice to be independent and to be free to make their own decisions?
It has nothing to do with their desire not to be subjugated to Russian control.....again?

I wrote "russia is partly to blame too". Can you read before replying?

I could go on, but surely if you ask yourself those questions and answer them honestly I think you may then get an idea of why Ukraine is fighting so hard to repel the Russian invasion

Because "the west" benefits from this situation. Benefits are way too huge. Here's SOME of them:
- They get to see how modern russian army fights, invaluable information to be used against them in a possible conflict.
- They sell equipment to ukraine for that sweet sweet money.
- They practically test their weapons, equipment etc in a war without actually putting themselves at risk.
- They improve their weapons, equipment etc based on the data gathered by "ukrainians" using them.

and why there is a continued need for NATO.

There is a need for nato? Really?! Tell me what good nato did since it has been formed. Literally NOTHING. Same as UN. Have you ever seen the (UN)INVOLVED IN PEACE meme? There is a reason that meme exists and it is the same reason nato is nothing more than a worthless, useless organization as a whole. Nothing would change, nothing of value would be lost if nato as an organization stopped existing right now.

a reply to: jofafot

"ukrainians" didn't exist before "ukraine" became a thing in 1991.

But why did Ukraine 'become a thing in 1991'?
Because the Ukrainian people wanted it to - The Right to Self-Determination.
Prior to 1991 lots of Ukrainians wanted an independent Ukraine unfortunately for them their country was under Russian control and subjugation.

You can't be seriously thinking atleast a part of these so called "ukrainians" are actually aren't russians who tootally agree with their fellow "ukrainians", both about the current war and about who the lands belong to?

Most of those Russian Ukrainians are from families that were forcibly relocated there during Stalin's great industrialisation programme whilst many ethnic Ukrainians were forcibly relocated to the Russian hinterlands - its been a common practice throughout Russian history.

I didn't agree with you though.

Re-read what you wrote....you did.
You said "Ukrainian is a nationality" - having a nationality implies nationhood.
Ukraine is an independent nation - they are NOT Russian.

So nato is not at war with russia....

Right again, NATO is not at war with Russia.
If it was there would be NATO troops all over Ukraine....and Russia itself.

What NATO is doing is supplying Ukraine with arms and the means to defend itself from an unprovoked and senseless act of aggression by Russia.

If usa stopped aggressively surrounding russia with their military bases this war wouldn't even broke out.

If Russia stopped bullying and being aggressive towards its neighbours maybe all those neighbouring countries wouldn't be seeking protection from Russia.

So now you're saying its the USA's fault that Russia chose to invade a non-threatening country - a nation which it had assured it would respect its borders and independence - that had no NATO or USA bases in?

But it is somehow always russia's fault, isn't it?

And there it is, the huge BIG collective chip on the shoulder.
You sound like a 10 year old child in the playground.

Tell me what good nato did since it has been formed.

It stopped Soviet advancement and prevented major war in Europe for 50/60 odd years - good things in my book.

Russia's invasion of Ukraine has given added justification and vindication for NATO's existence - hence Finland and Sweden deciding to join.

I agree with you about the UN, although a good thing in principle and well intentioned it is a bit of toothless tiger.

Wish I had time for a more in depth response but I'm a busy man today.

Its good to get a different perspective.

a reply to: jofafot

"....their leaders, who are chosen by them, willingly."?

Assad? Saddam? Etc?

You sure?

No, I don't hate the people.

Thank you.

By the way, I did not support the wars in Iraq or Afghanistan and changed my opinion on Gaza, but don't let those little factoids get in the way of your ranting.

"and that's why you support israelies kill iranians whenever they feel like it."

Nope.