Israeli Politician admits 12,000 Palestinians have died so far but... they're mostly terrorists!

originally posted by: FlyersFan

originally posted by: gortex
, the dead in the rubble are yet to be counted.

that's what I said. The number is not the truth. It's IMPOSSIBLE to know how many are dead. The bodies can't be pulled from the rubble AND Hamas lies. The number could be higher. It could be lower. It's just a propaganda number that Hamas pulled out of it's collected butt end.

The bottom line is that Israel is not targeting civilians. To claim this is genocide is absurd. To claim that Israel is 'trying to kill as many Palestinians as possible' is equally absurd. Israel has the firepower to kill ALL OF GAZA, and yet only a few thousand supposedly have died. That in of itself says Israel is not 'genociding Gaza'.

The reality was that the bombing of Gaza started almost immediately after the Oct. 7th terrorist attack by Hamas and the evacuation orders for Palestinians living in Gaza came afterwards, also Israel was bombing and seems to still be bombing the evacuation corridors the civilians use to evacuate.

First, parties to a conflict should issue effective warnings to civilians, where such warnings can help them avoid harm. But alerting civilians to flee, when there’s no safe place to go and no way to get there safely, neither suffices nor actually protects them. Civilians who remain in place after a warning to evacuate — including those who fear the dangerous journey to the south and the conditions they’ll find there — do not lose the protections of international humanitarian law. No matter what impossible choices families in Gaza make — the Israeli military is obligated never to target civilians or civilian infrastructure and to take all measures to minimize harm to civilians and civilian facilities such as homes, schools and hospitals.

Second, the laws of war prohibit “threats of violence the primary purpose of which is to spread terror among the civilian population.” Calls to evacuate that are not genuine warnings but rather primarily intended to cause panic among residents, or compel them to leave their homes for reasons other than their safety, are prohibited. The sweeping nature of the Israeli government’s order and the impossibility of safe compliance raise concerns that the purpose is not to protect civilians, but rather to terrify them into leaving their homes. An Israel Defense Forces spokesman's statement that those who evacuated northern Gaza were “doing the clever thing” heightens concerns about how Israeli forces will treat the civilians who stay put.

Third, the order risks forced displacement, which is a war crime. About 70% of Gaza residents are refugees who fled their homes in what is now Israel in 1948, and their descendants. Many of the older people in northern Gaza remember all too well their flight from the Israeli army 75 years ago — and Israel's subsequent refusal to allow them to return. Statements by Israeli officials calling on Gaza residents to flee to Egypt exacerbate the fears of many Palestinian refugees in Gaza that they will lose their homes once again.

U.N. Secretary-General António Guterres has said that ordering hundreds of thousands of people to evacuate on short notice, when there’s no safe place to go, will have devastating humanitarian consequences. International and humanitarian agencies agree.

www.hrw.org...

a reply to: Lazy88

So. You’re making excuses and apologies for Hamas doing nothing to evacuate civilians or shelter them to turn Gaza neighborhoods into rocket bases and schools into weapons dumps while firing 9000 plus rockets into Israel since Oct 7th.

Only a fool would surmise that from what I wrote , your strawman is obvious.
Please elucidate on how Hamas could move or shelter nearly 2 million people.

originally posted by: gortex

But you're happy to believe Israel who have been caught in a lie several times during this war , Gaza had one of the world's highest population densities before Israel bombed it into oblivion it's not difficult to see why that figure is closer to the truth than not , the dead in the rubble are yet to be counted.

Why isn't it 400,000 then?

originally posted by: gortex

Only a fool would surmise that from what I wrote , your strawman is obvious.
Please elucidate on how Hamas could move or shelter nearly 2 million people.

1.4 million have left, right?

Who killed the 70 women and children in a ground attack who were trying to get to safety as they were in the back of a flatbed truck? I'll give you a hint...it wasn't the Jews. How many of these types of stories we do not know about?

You must agree that Hamas cares nothing for the people there and sees collateral damage as a good thing, right? We can at least start there...

originally posted by: quintessentone

The reality was that the bombing of Gaza started almost immediately after the Oct. 7th terrorist attack by Hamas and the evacuation orders for Palestinians living in Gaza came afterwards, also Israel was bombing and seems to still be bombing the evacuation corridors the civilians use to evacuate.

Bombing very specific targets. When the US did the Shock and Awe attack on Iraq was there a warning? What is a better number for you? Is 14,000+ some magical number when it could be 400,000+. Even if it was 2000 you all would be saying the same damn things.

a reply to: Xtrozero

You must agree that Hamas cares nothing for the people there and sees collateral damage as a good thing, right? We can at least start there...

Where in any of the posts written have I said anything positive about Hamas ?

My concern is the men , women and children who are suffering the brunt once again because of wrongs on both sides , Hamas and Netanyahu are two sides of the same coin.

originally posted by: quintessentone

AGAIN - The bottom line is that Israel is not targeting civilians. To claim this is genocide is absurd. To claim that Israel is 'trying to kill as many Palestinians as possible' is equally absurd. Israel has the firepower to kill ALL OF GAZA, and yet only a few thousand supposedly have died. That in of itself says Israel is not 'genociding Gaza'.

edited because I was credibly corrected.

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: quintessentone

The reality was that the bombing of Gaza started almost immediately after the Oct. 7th terrorist attack by Hamas and the evacuation orders for Palestinians living in Gaza came afterwards, also Israel was bombing and seems to still be bombing the evacuation corridors the civilians use to evacuate.

Bombing very specific targets. When the US did the Shock and Awe attack on Iraq was there a warning? What is a better number for you? Is 14,000+ some magical number when it could be 400,000+. Even if it was 2000 you all would be saying the same damn things.

That is debatable however only with people who are willing to open their minds.

Those types of responses are known as revenge bombing campaigns without any strategies at play, where civilians take the brunt of the collective punishment.

Specific targets, such as refugee camps, mosques, schools, and evacuation corridors...is what they bombed and will continue to bomb.

a reply to: FlyersFan

your right about the bottom line, but Israel first stuck gaza at 10:46 am on Oct 7th. which was the exactly the right thing to do.retaliate hard and fast and don't let the enemy breath for a minute.

10:34 a.m. Israel says it has begun its war against Hamas.
10:46 a.m. Israeli fighter jets strike the first targets in Gaza.
11:35 a.m. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel makes his first statement to the nation on the crisis, telling Israelis that they are at war.
12:21 p.m. The Israeli military sends troops to southern Israel to reclaim towns taken by Hamas militants. Israel estimates that Hamas has fired at least 2,200 rockets since the first sirens Saturday morning.
1:46 p.m. Israel says it has struck 21 buildings that house Hamas military operations.
Here’s a timeline of Saturday’s attacks and Israel’s retaliation.

and as i posted earlier, gaza health ministry does not say whether pale's killed were civilians or combatants, and let hamas say how many POS's. so you can bet until independent non bias groups can investigate the claim will always be civilian deaths out number POS's.

The ministry never distinguishes between civilians and combatants.That becomes clearer after the dust settles, when the U.N. and rights groups investigate and militant groups offer a tally of members killed.The Israeli military also conducts post-war investigations. The Health Ministry doesn’t report how Palestinians were killed, whether from Israeli airstrikes and artillery barrages or other means, like errant Palestinian rocket fire.. It describes all casualties as victims of “Israeli aggression
What is Gaza’s Ministry of Health and how does it calculate the war’s death toll?

and in case anyone didn't notice the above two quotes are from left leaning just above fish wrappers.

originally posted by: BernnieJGato
gaza health ministry does not say whether pale's killed were civilians or combatants,

That's because there is no 'gaza health ministry' ... that's just a fancy word for HAMAS.

originally posted by: gortex

Where in any of the posts written have I said anything positive about Hamas ?

My concern is the men , women and children who are suffering the brunt once again because of wrongs on both sides , Hamas and Netanyahu are two sides of the same coin.

That wasn't my statement... It was that we can all agree Hamas cares nothing for the people there and will use them as a tool for their agenda.

That use comes in many wicked forms, but for this event, it is to pile up the dead and use that as a social media weapon against Israel.

How is Hamas doing that? We do not know how many civilians in Gaza Hamas is killing nor do we know how many people they force to keep in harm's way as Israel pushes forward.

We can both agree that no matter what Hamas does with endangering civilians Israel will not stop, welcome to the ME, my friend.

Millions of civilians have died in the ME in the last 20 years why the tears now?

originally posted by: FlyersFan
originally posted by: quintessentone

AGAIN - The bottom line is that Israel is not targeting civilians. To claim this is genocide is absurd. To claim that Israel is 'trying to kill as many Palestinians as possible' is equally absurd. Israel has the firepower to kill ALL OF GAZA, and yet only a few thousand supposedly have died. That in of itself says Israel is not 'genociding Gaza'.

edited because I was credibly corrected.

The U.N. Human Rights lawyer, who BTW knows International Law inside and out, says 'yes' their activities do meet the criteria to be defined and tried for war crimes, crimes against humanity, apartheid and genocide.

If you notice their indiscriminate and revenge-type assault at the start of their campaign was without strategy or any concern for evacuating civilians as compared to the present in how they adopted a different type of campaign, where they were pushing Hamas control center targets without any evidence, it's clear to some that the civilians and hostages, for that matter, were and still are of no concern.

originally posted by: quintessentone

Those types of responses are known as revenge bombing campaigns without any strategies at play, where civilians take the brunt of the collective punishment.

Specific targets, such as refugee camps, mosques, schools, and evacuation corridors...is what they bombed and will continue to bomb.

That is ONLY your opinion while Israel has been very specific about what their targets are. They are doing that for a reason with the piles of BS pushed out that people believe instantly because it is anti-Israel.

Once again why only 14,000 dead, why not 400,000 if that was their goal in revenge killing?

originally posted by: quintessentone

The U.N. Human Rights lawyer, who BTW knows International Law inside and out, says 'yes' their activities do meet the criteria to be defined and tried for war crimes, crimes against humanity, apartheid and genocide.

So 14,000 of 2.5 million is genocide?

What do the lawers say about Saudi killing 400,000 civilians, most women and children, or 100,000 of the same in Syria and even using chemicals, or Turkey killing 100,000s Kurds, or what Russia is doing, or what China did to 2 million, or....the list is endless.

a reply to: quintessentone

"also Israel was bombing and seems to still be bombing the evacuation corridors the civilians use to evacuate."

Still bombing?

Have they broken the ceasefire?

a reply to: FlyersFan

Genocide doesn't just include killing. It includes five acts:

"These five acts were: killing members of the group, causing them serious bodily or mental harm, imposing living conditions intended to destroy the group, preventing births, and forcibly transferring children out of the group."

I would say turning off water, turning off electricity and bombing hospitals and schools would fall under living conditions intended to cause serious bodily harm and imposing impossible living conditions.

I saw the hospital tour by the Israel military. If that's their "proof" they show to the world, it proves they really don't have proof. Any American city would have more guns than that.

It's the level of proportionality. You can't (or shouldn't bomb) thousands of civilians for a few suspected guns/military members.

Think about how you would want other countries doing that to the US. Your attitude would be changing if they bombed neighborhoods around military bases just because that's where military members live and keep their guns?

originally posted by: quintessentone
The U.N. Human Rights lawyer, who BTW knows International Law inside and out, says 'yes' their activities do meet the criteria to be defined and tried for war crimes, crimes against humanity, apartheid and genocide..

The United Nations is anti-semitic. It hasn't even officially condemned the Oct 7. terrorist attacks. And by the UN definition, Israel does not meet the criteria to be declared genocidal. Your anti-semitic lawyer buddy is obviously biased and wrong.

UN - Genocide

Article II

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

- Killing members of the group;

- Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

- Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

- Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

- Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

See those key words ... DELIBERATELY and CALCULATED and INTENT TO DESTROY. None of those apply to Israel and it's self defense campaign against Hamas. Gaza has 2.3 million people. Only a few thousand supposedly have been killed. If Israel was DELIBERATELY attacking Gaza's, and had CALCULATED attacks against Gaza's and had an INTENT TO DESTROY Gaza's ... a hell of a lot more of them would be dead.

The anti-semitic propaganda of 'genocide!' is easily dismissed.

Funny how you never talk about how Hamas has committed crimes against humanity, and never admit that they are operating out of hospitals and schools when all the evidence is clear that they are, and never admit that it is HAMAS and the Palestinians who want to genocide Isreal and the Jews when all Isreal wants to do is be left alone to live in peace.

originally posted by: Oldcarpy2
a reply to: quintessentone

"also Israel was bombing and seems to still be bombing the evacuation corridors the civilians use to evacuate."

Still bombing?

Have they broken the ceasefire?

Up to the cessation is what I meant, so don't be obtuse and desperate that you have to attack semantics, then they will be continuing doing the same bombing tactics in a few days, including bombing civilian evacuation corridors as they have clearly stated.

originally posted by: Xtrozero


Once again why only 14,000 dead, why not 400,000 if that was their goal in revenge killing?

Things like this are done in steps.

From Israel's actions, it looks like they are going for slow deaths from lack of food, water and medical care.

a reply to: quintessentone

Where have they stated that about evacuation corridors, specifically?