The absurdity of the fraud case against Trump

originally posted by: CanadianLoudMouth

originally posted by: network dude
This is what all of this is about according to the source:

James brought the $250 million lawsuit last September, alleging that Trump and his co-defendants committed fraud in inflating assets on financial statements to get better terms on commercial real estate loans and insurance policies.

link to source

If that is wrong, please explain why.

Now, when you get a loan, be it commercial or residential, the entity you are trying to borrow money from or purchase insurance from, has a duty on their end to evaluate the property and confirm what they say the value is. If they do not, then they alone will be left holding the bag if the borrower defaults, or insurance must pay out. To do this, they use appraisers. Appraisers use comparable sales to value property among other tools.

Once you know all that, and you ask, Did Trump default on his loan or recieve a total payout on a property? It seems not. So who has been wronged here? The only answer I can come up with is Trump, for being made to answer for such idiotic charges.

Jack Smith must not feel very good about his case, nor the Georgia case. Folks are getting sloppy.

I don't disagree that it would be on the loan agency/bank to do their due diligence, but regardless of that it's still fraud to lie about the value of your holdings in legal documents. The application would be considered a legal document. Is it that black and white? No, not at all but that's the legal angle they are coming from.

At what point do they need to prove the intent to defraud, or that fraud took place ? If they can’t prove either, it’s nothing but a belief / opinion.

If you try and sell a car for more than the blue book value, is it a crime ? Would all car dealers get arrested for selling a car for more than they should have ? Or for even putting too high a price on the window ? This is precisely what Trump is charged with.
There should be a massive class action suit against all car dealers in this jurisdiction.

As far as I know, people selling things on the open market have always tried to get as much as they can get for their property.

I never knew that a government could tell you that you have to sell your property for a specific amount, or you get arrested.

The famous old line on value is “whatever somebody is willing to pay”. This approach is a crime for anybody, with the Trump example.

Also, what constitutes “priceless” ? This concept has always meant the seller can name whatever number they want, take it leave it. Using this case as an example, this is a crime too.

If you can’t be honest that this a fully invented crime for political purposes, that’s on you.

The 18 million that the judge valued Mar a Lago for, should get him arrested and tried immediately. Reputable professionals in that area say it’s worth between half a billion and one billion. Shouldn’t matter if you lied too high or low.
It’s pretty clear that the judge has a future step in mind, in this pillaging of Trump. He set the value so low so that it’ll sell really fast through receivership, giving Trump no time to fight it.

And how is a judge acting as a real estate appraiser legal either ? He isn’t licensed or trained or educated in the business. He’s doing nothing more than extending his courtroom authority out to running a scam to seize private properties. This is no way legal.

a reply to: Quadrivium

It is important to note, none of these proceedings are meant to jail Trump.
The main goal is to sow doubt and try to blemish him even more, in the public eye.

Well, that and the fact that they're trying to fine him $250,000,000 for it. They're trying to break him financially eventually too.

a reply to: stevieray

Trump isn't trying to sell these properties. He's not even trying to use them as collateral. He's claiming them as assets. By overvaluing them to banks it makes the worth of his company look better and as a result the bank may be more willing to provide a loan or offer a better rate.

If the bank offers him a better rate based offer the overinflated value if his company that is turn defrauding the bank of money that they would've received through the increased interest.

a reply to: Threadbare

So, the bank is the victim here?

a reply to: Threadbare

Do you have a link? Are you sure about that? So take a look at the Palm Beach property valuations on Zillow. In my life I have lived in five homes. Four were stick built under contract. The judge is major league fluffed up. The valuation of the home is based on comps.

THAT INCLUDES OTHER NEIGHBORHOODS IN THE TOWN. LOOK AT THESE PALM BEACH VALUATIONS. IT SUPPORTS TRUMP.

Zillow Palm Beach Home Valuations

originally posted by: Threadbare
a reply to: stevieray

Trump isn't trying to sell these properties. He's not even trying to use them as collateral. He's claiming them as assets. By overvaluing them to banks it makes the worth of his company look better and as a result the bank may be more willing to provide a loan or offer a better rate.

If the bank offers him a better rate based offer the overinflated value if his company that is turn defrauding the bank of money that they would've received through the increased interest.

And here we come full circle jerk again. The BANK ALWAYS investigates a possible borrowers claims and values. they are not stupid and do not trust ANYONE when it comes to money.

originally posted by: nugget1

originally posted by: Quadrivium

originally posted by: nugget1
a reply to: CanadianLoudMouth

I don't disagree that it would be on the loan agency/bank to do their due diligence, but regardless of that it's still fraud to lie about the value of your holdings in legal documents.

So, it's a lie if an owner believes his property is valued at X and others see it valued at Y?

I personally see my property at quite a bit higher than the taxed value. It's worth whatever I believe it to be, and up to others to determine whether they would want to pay what I value it as. Same with requesting a loan; they can either accept my evaluation or come up with a counter proposal.

Have you ever taken a loan??
They don't just "accept my evaluation or come up with a counter proposal"....
What an absurd notion.
They do their due diligence because they are out to MAKE a profit. That is why you have appraisals and insurance value.
Your personal evaluation means little to nothing. They will loan you what THEY think it is worth and you have to come up with the excess.

So then, there's no possible way Trump could have overestimated the value of his property and as per usual they're just wasting a few million more of tax payers money. Gottcha!

Pretty much what it looks like.

originally posted by: SourGrapes
a reply to: Threadbare

So, the bank is the victim here?

Seeing how fast Democrats became shills for Big Pharma a few years ago when the pandemic became political, are they about to become massive fans of Big Banks now too?

The "party of the working class" folks.

originally posted by: Threadbare
a reply to: stevieray

Trump isn't trying to sell these properties. He's not even trying to use them as collateral. He's claiming them as assets. By overvaluing them to banks it makes the worth of his company look better and as a result the bank may be more willing to provide a loan or offer a better rate.

If the bank offers him a better rate based offer the overinflated value if his company that is turn defrauding the bank of money that they would've received through the increased interest.

While all of that is true, does New York really want to go after ANYONE under the premise of, "we didn't make as much interest off of you as we could have" as an argument? How bad does that make them look? Like everything else, I'm telling you this whole thing is going to blow up in New York's face and they will be the ones to suffer the most.

originally posted by: stevieray

I don't disagree that it would be on the loan agency/bank to do their due diligence, but regardless of that it's still fraud to lie about the value of your holdings in legal documents. The application would be considered a legal document. Is it that black and white? No, not at all but that's the legal angle they are coming from.

At what point do they need to prove the intent to defraud, or that fraud took place ? If they can’t prove either, it’s nothing but a belief / opinion.

If you try and sell a car for more than the blue book value, is it a crime ? Would all car dealers get arrested for selling a car for more than they should have ? As far as I know, people selling things on the open market have always tried to get as much as they can get for their property.

I never knew that a government could tell you that you have to sell your property for a specific amount, or you get arrested.

The famous old line on value is “whatever somebody is willing to pay”. This approach is a crime for anybody, with the Trump example.

Also, what constitutes “priceless” ? This concept has always meant the seller can name whatever number they want, take it leave it. Using this case as an example, this is a crime too.

If you can’t be honest that this a fully invented crime for political purposes, that’s on you.

I just increased the insurance on my Safety Deposit Box. I have some metals in there as well as some collectables. I wanted to raise it to $250,000. To do this I had to have the items appraised by an Appraiser that was specified by the Insurance Company. After the appraisal I was cleared to raise it to $500,000. The important thing is that THE INSURANCE COMPANY SPECIFIED THE APPRAISER.

Funny thing about insurance. Say I buy a new car. I insure it with State Farm and I buy another policy with Alstate. Both companies will take my premium payments, but if the car gets destroyed by a fire or something that is not my fault and I try to collect from both policies, I'm going to jail for insurance fraud.

a reply to: network dude

Look at this. Idiots like the judge think that a homes valuation pertains just to that specific neighborhood. NO it doesn't. This link should disqualify the judge. Fooking clown show to the extreme. I have lived in 5 homes in my life. We also going to sell the 5th and build the 6th. Comps on homes are not just based on the specific neighborhood, it can include the entire town. Especially anomalie homes like Mar A Largo. His property is worth a fortune.

Trump will Trump this in Supreme Court as the claims have NO standing.

Zillow Palm Beach Home Valuations

a reply to: SourGrapes

They're certainly some of the victims. However, AG James filed her case for the people of New York under Executive Law 63:

12. Whenever any person shall engage in repeated fraudulent or illegal acts or otherwise demonstrate persistent fraud or illegality in the carrying on, conducting or transaction of business, the attorney general may apply, in the name of the people of the state of New York, to the supreme court of the state of New York, on notice of five days, for an order enjoining the continuance of such business activity or of any fraudulent or illegal acts, directing restitution and damages and, in an appropriate case, cancelling any certificate filed under and by virtue of the provisions of section four hundred forty of the former penal law   3 or section one hundred thirty of the general business law, and the court may award the relief applied for or so much thereof as it may deem proper.  The word “fraud” or “fraudulent” as used herein shall include any device, scheme or artifice to defraud and any deception, misrepresentation, concealment, suppression, false pretense, false promise or unconscionable contractual provisions.  The term “persistent fraud” or “illegality” as used herein shall include continuance or carrying on of any fraudulent or illegal act or conduct.  The term “repeated” as used herein shall include repetition of any separate and distinct fraudulent or illegal act, or conduct which affects more than one person.  Notwithstanding any law to the contrary, all monies recovered or obtained under this subdivision by a state agency or state official or employee acting in their official capacity shall be subject to subdivision eleven of section four of the state finance law.

In connection with any such application, the attorney general is authorized to take proof and make a determination of the relevant facts and to issue subpoenas in accordance with the civil practice law and rules.  Such authorization shall not abate or terminate by reason of any action or proceeding brought by the attorney general under this section.

Source

a reply to: Waterglass

Once again, the $18 million assessment is coming from the Palm Beach assessor and is based in the fact that there are a lot of limitations of what can be done with the property, which includes not being able to use it as a personal residence. So comparing it to residences in the area is moot.

originally posted by: stevieray

originally posted by: CanadianLoudMouth

originally posted by: network dude
This is what all of this is about according to the source:

James brought the $250 million lawsuit last September, alleging that Trump and his co-defendants committed fraud in inflating assets on financial statements to get better terms on commercial real estate loans and insurance policies.

link to source

If that is wrong, please explain why.

Now, when you get a loan, be it commercial or residential, the entity you are trying to borrow money from or purchase insurance from, has a duty on their end to evaluate the property and confirm what they say the value is. If they do not, then they alone will be left holding the bag if the borrower defaults, or insurance must pay out. To do this, they use appraisers. Appraisers use comparable sales to value property among other tools.

Once you know all that, and you ask, Did Trump default on his loan or recieve a total payout on a property? It seems not. So who has been wronged here? The only answer I can come up with is Trump, for being made to answer for such idiotic charges.

Jack Smith must not feel very good about his case, nor the Georgia case. Folks are getting sloppy.

I don't disagree that it would be on the loan agency/bank to do their due diligence, but regardless of that it's still fraud to lie about the value of your holdings in legal documents. The application would be considered a legal document. Is it that black and white? No, not at all but that's the legal angle they are coming from.

At what point do they need to prove the intent to defraud, or that fraud took place ? If they can’t prove either, it’s nothing but a belief / opinion.

If you try and sell a car for more than the blue book value, is it a crime ? Would all car dealers get arrested for selling a car for more than they should have ? Or for even putting too high a price on the window ? This is precisely what Trump is charged with.
There should be a massive class action suit against all car dealers in this jurisdiction.

As far as I know, people selling things on the open market have always tried to get as much as they can get for their property.

I never knew that a government could tell you that you have to sell your property for a specific amount, or you get arrested.

The famous old line on value is “whatever somebody is willing to pay”. This approach is a crime for anybody, with the Trump example.

Also, what constitutes “priceless” ? This concept has always meant the seller can name whatever number they want, take it leave it. Using this case as an example, this is a crime too.

If you can’t be honest that this a fully invented crime for political purposes, that’s on you.

The 18 million that the judge valued Mar a Lago for, should get him arrested and tried immediately. Reputable professionals in that area say it’s worth between half a billion and one billion. Shouldn’t matter if you lied too high or low.
It’s pretty clear that the judge has a future step in mind, in this pillaging of Trump. He set the value so low so that it’ll sell really fast through receivership, giving Trump no time to fight it.

And how is a judge acting as a real estate appraiser legal either ? He isn’t licensed or trained or educated in the business. He’s doing nothing more than extending his courtroom authority out to running a scam to seize private properties. This is no way legal.

In my humble opinion that's not what Trump is being charged with. We all know when it comes to vehicle sales, prices on the window are a starting point for negotiations.

Those are not put into a legal document. That's the difference I think.

The judge never acted as an appraiser. He took the value from the taxation agency. To state that the judge used this number based on his own opinion was wrong. He took it from the tax people.

a reply to: Threadbare

You need to go to a property valuation school. Take the 74 year old idiot and corrupt New York Judge and Prosecutor along with you.

Trump owns 20+ acres both oceanfront and inland. Here's a mere 2 something acres of land for sale at $200 million dollars in Palm Beach. This judge is so off base he should be jailed for corruption.

Please do the math.

Zillow Oceanfront

originally posted by: Threadbare
a reply to: stevieray

Trump isn't trying to sell these properties. He's not even trying to use them as collateral. He's claiming them as assets. By overvaluing them to banks it makes the worth of his company look better and as a result the bank may be more willing to provide a loan or offer a better rate.

If the bank offers him a better rate based offer the overinflated value if his company that is turn defrauding the bank of money that they would've received through the increased interest.

Are you dense? Because you must be dense.

The banks have entire divisions dedicated to appraising properties.

THEY DON’T GO BY WHAT A CUSTOMER WILL VALUE A PROPERTY AT.

originally posted by: Threadbare
a reply to: stevieray

Trump isn't trying to sell these properties. He's not even trying to use them as collateral. He's claiming them as assets. By overvaluing them to banks it makes the worth of his company look better and as a result the bank may be more willing to provide a loan or offer a better rate.

If the bank offers him a better rate based offer the overinflated value if his company that is turn defrauding the bank of money that they would've received through the increased interest.

You’ve got to stop being so disingenuous. It’s a terrible look on an adult.

We’ve already had this discussion in earlier threads, and you know it.

It’s not fraud until he pockets the ill-gotten money.
It’s not intent unless you read his mind and prove he knew it couldn’t possibly be worth a certain number that he offered. And it’s all just opinion in the end.

The bank runs the application process, not Trump.

Your logic would make it an expulsion level cheat for a student to guess at an answer, hoping to get credit for something they shouldn’t get. The teacher has the power to shut it down with their red pen, just like the bank does. And not the courts for either example.

originally posted by: RazorV66

originally posted by: Threadbare
a reply to: stevieray

Trump isn't trying to sell these properties. He's not even trying to use them as collateral. He's claiming them as assets. By overvaluing them to banks it makes the worth of his company look better and as a result the bank may be more willing to provide a loan or offer a better rate.

If the bank offers him a better rate based offer the overinflated value if his company that is turn defrauding the bank of money that they would've received through the increased interest.

Are you dense? Because you must be dense.

The banks have entire divisions dedicated to appraising properties.

THEY DON’T GO BY WHAT A CUSTOMER WILL VALUE A PROPERTY AT.

We’re simply getting into deep lying here.

They just say anything now, so desperate to see the destruction of Trump that they’ve been dreaming of for 7 years.

a reply to: JIMC5499

If they can’t prove either, it’s nothing but a belief / opinion.

Yep. That's what I said earlier too. The Dems are going to turn the definition of their beliefs and opinions into FACT and anyone who says otherwise should be penalized.

By the way, what is the current status of Trump's organizations? Are they in receivership? And with whom?

New York's attempt to drive Trump and all of his businesses out of New York is going to cost them a pretty penny. I hope New Yorkers wake up and move out in more droves than they already have. Let it turn into the mafia state it's headed into and see who survives.

a reply to: Waterglass

I'm literally taking my information the assessment done by the Palm Beach asessor. You know? The person whose job it is to provide valuations in that area.