Meat equals Prosperity

a reply to: tanstaafl

you believe that human beings can evolve in a single lifespan, or even a generation or two?

As I previously stated, entire civilizations cannot evolve in a single lifespan. However, an individual person, a single family, even a small society, yes, they can change their genetic composition in a single lifespan or a generation or two.

There is no question that we human beings can dramatically affect our individual genetic expressions

That's evolution.

You act as though humans don't have any conscious control over our own evolution,

Because we don't...

But you just said:

There is no question that we human beings can dramatically affect our individual genetic expressions

I guess that depends on your definition of thriving. When compared to other tribes in the areas that do eat primarily animal foods (meat and fat), they are far less healthy and shorter lived.

Can you provide some statistics for this claim?

other than whatever micro toxins that they are exposed to

Can you specify these micro toxins?

You will find that all homo sapiens do extremely well on an all red meat diet.

What specifically is an "all red meat diet" Is it literally all red meat? Does it include a ratio of meat/plant? Does it include seafood?

originally posted by: socialmediaclown
a reply to: tanstaafl
However, an individual person, a single family, even a small society, yes, they can change their genetic composition in a single lifespan or a generation or two.

What you are describing is NOT evolution, it is epigenetics, and we can alter our genetic expression (epigenetics) within hours, days and weeks (some things may take months or even years) to a certain extent, and yes, over an entire lifespan or even multiple generations, we can change our epigenetics even more.

But again, this has nothing to do with evolution.

"There is no question that we human beings can dramatically affect our individual genetic expressions"

That's evolution.

Nope. It is epigenetics.

You do realize you're just making yourself look really foolish here, right?

Can you provide some statistics for this claim?

Sure, absolutely! Right after you provide evidence of yours.

Can you specify these micro toxins?

When you start providing evidence for your claims, I'll take a little more time to provide some for my refutations.

What specifically is an "all red meat diet" Is it literally all red meat?

Yes.

Does it include a ratio of meat/plant?

Nope... that would be a mixed diet, but it could be mostly carnivore, depending on how much plant foods one was including.

Does it include seafood?

No, that would just be carnivore.

And no, I'm not saying anyone needs to go all red meat, I'm saying that one can achieve vital, radiant health eating only red meat.

Most people can eat lots of other animal foods, but some can't. Some people with serious autoimmune issues - like the Petersons (Michaela and her father Jordan) can't even eat non-ruminant meats like pork, or other animal foods like eggs or even butter.

a reply to: tanstaafl

What is evolution?

originally posted by: socialmediaclown
a reply to: tanstaafl

What is evolution?

The long, slow process of the genetic sequences of an entire species adapting to new/different conditions over a period of hundreds of thousands and/or millions of years.

Unlike genetic changes, epigenetic changes are reversible and do not change your DNA sequence, but they can change how your body reads a DNA sequence, and these changes can happen quickly - as I said, in a matter of days, weeks, months ir years, depending on the which genetic sequences are involved.

a reply to: tanstaafl

Are you saying that epigenetic traits cannot be passed down from generation to generation?

originally posted by: socialmediaclown
a reply to: tanstaafl

Are you saying that epigenetic traits cannot be passed down from generation to generation?

No, I'm saying that there is no such thing as epigenetic 'traits'.

Epigenetics is simply the way that one's genes are currently being expressed - and one can change their epigenetics - the way their body is expressing their genes - by making dietary and other lifestyle changes, as well as engaging in certain treatments - things like HBOT, Magnetic pulsing, Fasting, etc.

a reply to: tanstaafl

Some history of epigenetics:

The Epicenter of Epigenetics; Discussing the Agouti Mice Study & More with Dr. Randy Jirtle
www.google.com...


YouTube talk:
Epigenetic Transformation: You Are What Your Grandparents Ate



Grandma's Experiences Leave a Mark on Your Genes

Geneticists were especially surprised to find that epigenetic change could be passed down from parent to child, one generation after the next. A study from Randy Jirtle of Duke University showed that when female mice are fed a diet rich in methyl groups, the fur pigment of subsequent offspring is permanently altered. Without any change to DNA at all, methyl groups could be added or subtracted, and the changes were inherited much like a mutation in a gene.

www.discovermagazine.com...


Why Your DNA May Not Be Your Destiny

Furthermore, epigenetic traits can be passed down from generation to generation, said Randy Jirtle, a visiting professor at McArdle Laboratory for Cancer Research at the University of Wisconsin-Madison.

For example, a study published in 2005 in the Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism found that pregnant women who witnessed the 9/11 attacks on the World Trade Center passed on higher levels of a stress hormone, called cortisol, to their babies.

www.livescience.com...


Genetic response to starvation is passed down to at least three generations

In 1944, the Nazis caused widespread famine in Western Netherlands after they blocked food supplies. A group of pregnant women living in the Netherlands, laboring under starvation conditions imposed by a harsh winter and food embargo, gave birth to relatively small babies. When their children grew up, in relative prosperity, to have children of their own their babies were unexpectedly small. This was the birth place of epigenetics - the study of genetic changes sparked by external factors that become passed down to subsequent generations. A new study may have discovered an underlying mechanism that transfers the starvation response to future generations after they studied food-deprived worms.

www.zmescience.com...


Humans are still evolving—and we can watch it happen
Analyses of thousands of sequenced genomes show changes in as little as a generation

Many people think evolution requires thousands or millions of years, but biologists know it can happen fast. Now, thanks to the genomic revolution, researchers can actually track the population-level genetic shifts that mark evolution in action—and they're doing this in humans. Two studies presented at the Biology of Genomes meeting here last week show how our genomes have changed over centuries or decades, charting how since Roman times the British have evolved to be taller and fairer, and how just in the last generation the effect of a gene that favors cigarette smoking has dwindled in some groups.

With the help of giant genomic data sets, scientists can now track these evolutionary shifts in allele frequencies over short timescales. Jonathan Pritchard of Stanford University in Palo Alto, California, and his postdoc Yair Field did so by counting unique single-base changes, which are found in every genome. Such rare individual changes, or singletons, are likely recent, because they haven't had time to spread through the population. Because alleles carry neighboring DNA with them as they circulate, the number of singletons on nearby DNA can be used as a rough molecular clock, indicating how quickly that allele has changed in frequency.

www.science.org...#:~:text=Analyses%20of%20thousands%20of%20sequenced,a s%20little%20as%20a%20generation&text=Many%20people%20think%20evolution%20requires,know%20it%20can%20happen%20fast.


How does epigenetics influence the course of evolution?

there is growing appreciation that epigenetic variation makes direct and indirect contributions to evolutionary processes. First, some epigenetic states are transmitted intergenerationally and affect the phenotype of offspring. Moreover, bona fide heritable ‘epialleles' exist and are quite common in plants. Such epialleles could, therefore, be subject to natural selection in the same way as conventional DNA sequence-based alleles

royalsocietypublishing.org...


Understanding epigenetic modifications and their impact on gene regulation: Powerful solutions for studying heritable changes outside of the DNA sequence

Epigenetics is the study of heritable changes in gene activity caused by mechanisms other than DNA sequence changes. Epigenetic analysis research can involve studying alterations in DNA methylation, DNA-protein interactions, chromatin accessibility, histone modifications, and more.

www.illumina.com... 2PgiRt0R2EquDUrFbtxBkxTBdil0fDTYUjGkMmPuuMtHvrDdufYtvQehoC7fkQAvD_BwE


Epigenetics & Inheritance

We used to think that a new embryo's epigenome was completely erased and rebuilt from scratch. But this isn't completely true. Some epigenetic tags remain in place as genetic information passes from generation to generation, a process called epigenetic inheritance.

Epigenetic inheritance is an unconventional finding. It goes against the idea that inheritance happens only through the DNA code that passes from parent to offspring. It means that a parent's experiences, in the form of epigenetic tags, can be passed down to future generations.

As unconventional as it may be, there is little doubt that epigenetic inheritance is real. In fact, it explains some strange patterns of inheritance geneticists have been puzzling over for decades.

learn.genetics.utah.edu...


Evolutionary consequences of epigenetic inheritance

In recent years, the belief that the genetic code is the sole basis for biological inheritance has been challenged by the discovery of trans-generational epigenetic inheritance. Environmentally induced phenotypes can in this way persist for several generations, due to the transmission of molecular factors that determine how DNA is read and expressed (Jablonka and Raz 2009; Bonduriansky and Day 2009). Epigenetic regulation of gene expression is a common process that acts during the differentiation of somatic cells, as well as in response to environmental cues and stresses, and the passing on of these modulations to the offspring constitutes epigenetic inheritance.

www.nature.com...

a reply to: socialmediaclown

Thanks for proving my point... well done!

a reply to: tanstaafl

Way to get out of a rebuttal

originally posted by: socialmediaclown
a reply to: tanstaafl

Way to get out of a rebuttal

Way to give yourself the opportunity to falsely believe you won an argument

a reply to: tanstaafl

I didn't know this was an argument but, here..allow me to prove your point even more:
Epigenetic inheritance, transgenerational epigenetic inheritance and cultural inheritance

There is a general consensus that ‘epigenetic inheritance' refers to the transfer of epigenetic information across mitotic cell divisions [20–23]
transfer of epigenetic information across mitotic cell divisions [20–23] and transgenerational epigenetic inheritance is the transfer of epigenetic information across multiple generations [47,58]. We think these are useful definitions. However, some authors take a much broader view of ‘epigenetic inheritance' [59–61], and include notions like intergenerational cultural transmission. For example, the language spoken at home is typically transmitted from parent to offspring and in this sense is a heritable phenotype despite an absence of any genetic basis.

Epigenetic adaptation in inbred and clonal species

Experimental studies on plants provide some of the best-known examples of epigenetic variants that are inherited across multiple generations [26]. However, it is still unclear to what extent transgenerational epigenetic inheritance occurs in plants in nature. Mounger et al. [56] provide observations and theoretical evidence that transgenerational epigenetic inheritance could underlie much of the rapid adaptation that characterizes invasive plant populations. Mounger et al. acknowledge, however, that detailed genome-wide surveys are still lacking, especially for clonal plants, where epigenetic mechanisms could play an even more important function. They also stress the need to measure somatic mutation rates in invasive clonal lineages, as these could be sufficient to generate or maintain abundant genetic variation, notably through TE mobilization, which tends to generate large-effect mutations [26]. Hybridization and polyploidization affect DNA methylation patterns and are thought to be important for the invasive success of some plant species, but here again, the authors stress the need to monitor TE mobilization before concluding that DNA variation plays any role in this success, either directly or indirectly through increased transposition.

royalsocietypublishing.org...

Do Epigenetic Changes Influence Evolution?

Evidence is mounting that epigenetic marks on DNA can influence future generations in a variety of ways

Some evidence suggests that epigenetic changes have the potential to influence a lineage’s genetics. Rechavi says that in his study, he’d expect that the nematodes that experienced an earlier start to their mating activity would see an increase in the genetic diversity of their offspring. “This is the punchline of the paper: That a transient small RNA-based response can lead to a permanent change in the genome,” he says. And across a range of species, scientists have learned that extragenomic components can directly change the genetic code by triggering mutations and shaping the evolution of genes. Such revelations suggest that epigenetics could be a long-overlooked player in evolutionary processes, sparking new hypotheses about how species adapt and diversify.

www.the-scientist.com...#:~:text=Effects%20of%20epigenetics%20on%20the,is%20some%20evide nce%20now%20surfacing.

Epigenetic programming by maternal nutrition: shaping future generations

Within the Western world’s aging and increasingly overweight population, we are seeing an increasing prevalence of adult-onset, lifestyle-related disease such as diabetes, hypertension and atherosclerosis. There is significant evidence that suboptimal nutrition in pregnancy can lead to an increased risk of these diseases developing in offspring, and that this increased risk can be heritable. While the molecular basis of this phenomenon is unknown, available evidence suggests that it can be mediated by epigenetic changes to gene expression. Here, we discuss epigenetics as a mediator of disease risk in response to nutritional cues. The potential for maternal nutrition to heritably alter epigenetic states may have implications for population health and adaptive evolution.

www.futuremedicine.com...#:~:text=Epimutations%20might%20be%20induced%20in,be%20influenced%20by%20maternal%20diet.

The role of epigenetics in human evolution

This review aims to highlight the key areas in which changes to the epigenome have played an important role in the evolution and development of our species. Firstly, there will be a brief introduction into the topic of epigenetics to outline the current understanding of the subject and inform the reader of the basic mechanisms and functions of the epigenome. This will lead on to more focussed detail on the role played by epigenetic changes in the rapid evolution of our species and emergence from our ancestor species, as well as the Human Accelerated Regions that played a role in this. The discussion highlights how epigenetics has helped and hindered our species’ development via changes to the epigenome in more modern times, discussing case examples of documented instances where it is shown that epigenetics has played a role in the evolution of humanity.

academic.oup.com...

Epigenetic modifications are associated with inter-species gene expression variation in primates

Changes in gene regulation have long been thought to play an important role in evolution and speciation, especially in primates. Over the past decade, comparative genomic studies have revealed extensive inter-species differences in gene expression levels, yet we know much less about the extent to which regulatory mechanisms differ between species.

Results: To begin addressing this gap, we perform a comparative epigenetic study in primate lymphoblastoid cell lines, to query the contribution of RNA polymerase II and four histone modifications, H3K4me1, H3K4me3, H3K27ac, and H3K27me3, to inter-species variation in gene expression levels

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

Environmental 'memories' passed on for 14 generations

Led by Dr Ben Lehner, group leader at the EMBL-CRG Systems Biology Unit and ICREA and AXA Professor, together with Dr Tanya Vavouri from the Josep Carreras Leukaemia Research Institute and the Institute for Health Science Research Germans Trias i Pujol (IGTP), the researchers noticed that the impact of environmental change can be passed on in the genes for many generations while studying C. elegans worms carrying a transgene array -- a long string of repeated copies of a gene for a fluorescent protein that had been added into the worm genome using genetic engineering techniques.

www.sciencedaily.com...#:~:text=Summary%3A,animals%20%2D%2D%20scientists%20have%20discovered.

Transgenerational epigenetic programming via sperm microRNA recapitulates effects of paternal stress

Studies examining paternal exposure to diverse environmental stimuli propose that epigenetic marks in germ cells, including small noncoding RNAs such as microRNA (miR), transmit experience-dependent information from parent to offspring

originally posted by: socialmediaclown
a reply to: tanstaafl

I didn't know this was an argument but, here..allow me to prove your point even more:

Spamming the thread with a bunch of crap you haven't even read is kindof pointless, and probably should be against the ToS...

Nothing you have posted even suggests that a human can evolve from a meat eater to a plant eater in a lifespan, a few decades, or even a few generations.

For that to happen, massive changes to their physical body with respect to just their digestive system alone would have to take place, let alone all of the biological/biochemical changes that would have to take place.

a reply to: tanstaafl

You said:

When you start providing evidence for your claims, I'll take a little more time to provide some for my refutations.

You also said:

there is no such thing as epigenetic 'traits

And:

this [epigenetics] has nothing to do with evolution

originally posted by: socialmediaclown
a reply to: tanstaafl

You said:
"When you start providing evidence for your claims, I'll take a little more time to provide some for my refutations."

You also said:
"there is no such thing as epigenetic 'traits"

And:
"this [epigenetics] has nothing to do with evolution"

Why yes, yes I did, and I stand by it, because in general and by and large, it is the truth...

Epigen etic mechanisms are often held to make a minor contribution to evolutionary change because epigenetic states are typically erased and reset at every generation, and are therefore, not heritable.

a reply to: tanstaafl

You left out the rest:

Nonetheless, there is growing appreciation that epigenetic variation makes direct and indirect contributions to evolutionary processes. First, some epigenetic states are transmitted intergenerationally and affect the phenotype of offspring. Moreover, bona fide heritable 'epialleles' exist and are quite common in plants. Such epialleles could, therefore, be subject to natural selection in the same way as conventional DNA sequence-based alleles. Second, epigenetic variation enhances phenotypic plasticity and phenotypic variance and thus can modulate the effect of natural selection on sequence-based genetic variation. Third, given that phenotypic plasticity is central to the adaptability of organisms, epigenetic mechanisms that generate plasticity and acclimation are important to consider in evolutionary theory. Fourth, some genes are under selection to be 'imprinted' identifying the sex of the parent from which they were derived, leading to parent-of-origin-dependent gene expression and effects. These effects can generate hybrid disfunction and contribute to speciation. Finally, epigenetic processes, particularly DNA methylation, contribute directly to DNA sequence evolution, because they act as mutagens on the one hand and modulate genome stability on the other by keeping transposable elements in check.

originally posted by: socialmediaclown
a reply to: tanstaafl

Are you saying that epigenetic traits cannot be passed down from generation to generation?

I have no clue what this post has turned into.

But just wanted to add that Meat = Good, Vegetarian = weak/sickly 😁

originally posted by: socialmediaclown
a reply to: tanstaafl

You left out the rest:

Changes nothing.

Epigenetics and evolution are related, but are still two entirely different things.

Epigenetics is first and foremost how our existing genes are expressed. Meaning, they can be turned on and off, simply by making certain changes - like diet.

Yes, they might - MIGHT - contribute in some minor ways to minor evolutionary changes...

originally posted by: JAGStorm
a reply to: socialmediaclown
But just wanted to add that Meat = Good, Vegetarian = weak/sickly 😁

Well, at least we can agree on that!

a reply to: JAGStorm

Well if you're interested in knowing epigenetic traits can be transmitted from one generation to the next through heritable markers... I provided an extensive amount of data to back that up

That's about it in a nutshell

originally posted by: JAGStorm
www.yahoo.com...

Nearly 70% of Americans said the economy is getting worse, according to the poll, while only 22% said the economy is improving. Eighty-four percent of Americans said their cost of living is rising, and nearly half of Americans, 49%, blamed food and grocery prices as the main driver.

Many people of our generation really haven't seen a bad time. Sure there have been bumps in the economy and people have gone broke, but as a whole we've been a pretty well off society in America.

When a country is on it's way up and is getting prosperious one of the first thing people do is buy more meat.
China's hunger for meat is insatiable, why do you think they are gobbling up all our farms and animals?!
This has been true for as long as people have been around (in meat eating societies)

What we are seeing now in the US is the opposite.🤬 Food in general is getting more expensive and people are trying to do everything
to reduce their food costs. One of those things includes meat purchases.

In my personal opinion that is absolutely terrible.😥 They have tried to demonize meat in every way possible.
The powers that be, or whoever is behind it, failed terribly with fake and imitation meat products. They are terrible, and probably a thousand times worse for your health. I've seen a new trend on social media. All kinds of way to cook cheaply.... you guessed it, without meat.
One of the newest is a hispanic mom saying she has never worried about food problems with rice and beans. Others are sharing meatless pasta and veggie dishes....

We are almost at the point, where meat will separate the classes. (oh how they love that) There is nothing rich people love more than being exclusive and not having peons be able to eat the same thing as them. (If you read old books, you'll see that's a common theme).

Can still afford meat but it's getting expensive.