What a terrible day - 21 dead most are children

originally posted by: tamusan
a reply to: CryHavoc

We have to do something. What? I don't know. It's not the guns causing it. I, like many my age, had easy access to firearms growing up, and we didn't have this level of gun violence. Society is broken. I don't know how to fix it. We have grown into a perverse culture of violence in the U.S.

My wife is trying to get me to agree to move back to Japan right away over this stuff. 

Your assessment isn't wrong, but to move back to Japan right away way over this? seems like a tad bit of an overreaction.

This stuff scares me too, my daughter is a teacher in a big-city middle school.

The thing is millions of other young men can get guns and do the same thing? but don't

This is ground in mental health, but unless authorities are given more discretion and families become more vigilant about those around them that are struggling. This kind of crap will continue, Im against bans per se, but we ought to find some other methods from restrictions to consulting and mental health watch.

The problem is we will never encroach on a person's rights ie detain them before they do something, except under extreme circumstances, and it's really hard to do even that once they are older than 18. Somebody had to suspect even a little bit this kid was about to lose his stuff. That's where the first failure happened, he had nobody close to him to intervene, help, or council or if they did it failed. Not to mention it's traumatic when you have your kid put away even temporarily, Ive seen it happen to a friend. He was a bit of trouble maker mostly drugs, nothing major though. His parents didn't know what to do and were concerned and sent him away for a while. When he came back he was different and was very bitter about being put away, which affected him well into his adulthood.

If AR-15 availability was the only root cause for these incidences it would happen all the time, tens of thousand probably already have one or 3. We got to find the other triggers as well, but for what it is worth, I could see why an 18-year-old kid shouldn't be able to get one so easily too, and Im definitely pro 2A. I certainly get the impetus that we need to try something even if it is half-assed, hell if it means you have to be 21 would stop just one of these incidences Id be for it.

Much like most issues woven within the fabric of our society, it just takes time for us to evolve past

It will be the same with automatic violent responses to negative stimuli young men have, we need to understand though in rural America atleast young men have had access to semi-automatic rifles for a while, if access alone were the only cause there would be lots more of this. Thus perhaps we aren't evolving correctly in other areas too, what is it that makes these young men feel so hopeless, angry, and full of hate.

a reply to: baggy7981

That's the same position held by Tipper Gore and the PMRC against music.

And as Frank Zappa put it, "There are more love songs than anything else. If songs could make you do something we'd all love one another."

By that logic, you'd see a bunch of plumbers going around and stomping on turtles.

No, like Tamusan stated, it's the people not the guns.

Notice how we handle the situation after a mass shooting occurs.

We're quick to judge and condemn the individuals responsible for these crimes as the dregs of society, when before commiting to the act, they already felt like the dregs of society.

Then we label them after the fact: He was bigoted, he was mentally disturbed, etc.

These mass shooters are our neighbors, they're someone's children. They are a reflection of our society. The ones that fell through the cracks.

Blame is never a solution.

We're going to have to go the MLK route and fight this issue with compassion.

a reply to: andy06shake

This is exactly the reason why we should not need to treat our children like property or money, you should not need to alarm your kids mate, and when you do there is something not quite right about the place.

Providing security from domestic and external sources of terrorism and crime isn’t treating kids like property. Threats to decent people from violent extremists to drug dealers (drug cartels) is a reality. Why should we be different than other countries in our Southern Hemisphere if the USA is pushing for open boarders.

a reply to: andy06shake

Again. The US is willing to send 40 billion to the Ukrainian while doing zilch to better secure schools.


Oh the hypocrisy. And as pointed out. There are more threats to children than mass shootings.

I remember high school in the 80s.
Pickup trucks in the parking lot with gun racks in the back window. Lots of farm kids and former boy scouts carried pocket knives.
Yet nobody got shived or shot.

The biggest change since that time is the prescribing of antidepressants to the same kids.

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: Itisnowagain

Why does America have so much gun crime?
Is it guns that kill people?

Some interesting statistics and information included in the link below that may address those conundrums.

www.bbc.co.uk...

Have you seen 'Bowling for Columbine'?

a reply to: neutronflux

Providing security from domestic and external sources of terrorism and crime isn’t tearing kids like property.

Having to provide security against firearms attack on a school simply is not normal neutronflux no matter which way you care to look at it.

And if it was i imagine people simply would not send their kids out to school in the morning.

Threats to decent people from violent extremists to drug dealers (drug cartels) is a reality.

Then you address the symptoms you don't barricade your kids behind reinforced closed doors and post armed guards at every turn to protect them. That's a prison not a school imho.

Why should we be different than other countries in our Southern Hemisphere if the USA is pushing for open boarders.

Because your first-world nation with laws of the land in place that are supposed to retard people killing one another springs to mind.

Its not the land of the free and the home of the brave if you cannot send your kids to school in relative safety, at least from mass murder.

Turning schools into fortresses is not the answer.

Stopping children and mental health cases from having access to guns, in general, might address the issue all the same, as its kind of hard to kill 22 people without bullets, or at least nowhere as easy as simply pulling a trigger.

a reply to: Itisnowagain

Yes, many moons ago, came out in the early 2000s if memory serves.

originally posted by: Bluntone22
I remember high school in the 80s.
Pickup trucks in the parking lot with gun racks in the back window. Lots of farm kids and former boy scouts carried pocket knives.
Yet nobody got shived or shot.

The biggest change since that time is the prescribing of antidepressants to the same kids.

Yep, damn hunting season would come around and even here in suburban Atlanta, there would be 2-3 groups bringing their hunting gear and rifles in their trucks because they were gonna go hunting afterward. I had cousins in more rural areas and half the school would do that in the 70s and 80s.

Our mindset changed, our respect for others, as well as our ability to realize the vast majority of people are dealing with heavy duty stuff too, they just process it differently.

a reply to: andy06shake

Having to provide security against a fire armed attack on a school simply is not normal neutronflux no matter which way you care to look at it.

Fires are not “normal”. But most public buildings have sprinkler systems.

Now. How is protecting children from abductions and sexual predators treating them like property There are things worse than death for a child.

Especially if the USA is willing to spend 40 billion on Ukrainian security. Is Putin invading normal?

One former friend, Santos Valdez Jr., 18, said he had known Ramos since they were young. They used to play shooter video games including Fortnite and Call of Duty.

He said Ramos once turned up to a park with cuts all over his face.

“Then he told me the truth, that he’d cut up his face with knives over and over and over,” Mr Valdez said, according to the Washington Post. “I was like, ‘You’re crazy, bro, why would you do that?’”

Ramos reportedly said he did it for fun, according to Mr Valdez.

www.telegraph.co.uk...

a reply to: andy06shake

And securing schools would more than likely make mass shooting at school into something other how you mean “normal”.

And school shootings in the USA are not normal in the since a vast majority of students in the USA will never experience a school shooting. But Chicago lives with murders as a city every day.

a reply to: andy06shake
Can you remember what his final analysis/conclusion was?

a reply to: neutronflux

And securing schools would more than likely make mass shooting at school into something other how you mean “normal”.

What would it make them into?

Aside from standoff battles between combatants and authorities which already takes place 9 times out of 10 if the perp doesn't manage to off themselves after committing their horrendous act of depravity.

And school shootings in the USA are not normal in the since a vast majority of students in the USA will never experience a school shooting. But Chicago lives with murders as a city every day.

Mate America has more school shootings than anywhere else I'm aware of on the planet.

So the majority of students may never experience a school shooting, but plenty of people and places in your beloved country sure do, almost on a daily basis or so it seems, far to many and that goes without saying.

Chicago should not be living with murders as a city every day with the number of murders that occur any more than anywhere else in the 50 states which comprise the USA should have to coup with such.

a reply to: Itisnowagain

Seem to recall the premise being that Americans kill people but the problem can be fixed.

Michael Moore is/was an NRA member, he does seem however to wish to see a modicum of gun control introduced.

Especially where nutters are concerned.

a reply to: CryHavoc

So what DO we do?

You mentioned several things, guns, mental health, teachers etc.

What if it's not one of those things, but all of those things?
I can also say that I 100% do not want teachers armed. There are many mentally ill teachers and the last thing I want to see on the news is a clip about teachers doing this to students.

What do we do? I think a first step is to look at who is commiting these types of crimes.
From there we need to dissect their lives. Is there anything we can do to help "those" types of people?

A friend of mine visited Israel...they have had to live under the cloud of bombers, etc and really have done a service to their citizens by ramping up security and hardening the probable areas that would invite a violent attack. He said that you have to walk through metal detectors in almost all public venues, and there are armed guards/police in view at all times within populated areas. That made him feel safe, not anxious, considering the alternatives. Let us get answers from those who have had success in this area of conflict and implement their solutions where possible. Stop handing out $$$ to other countries until this is solved with our own federal dollars.

Here's my question:
Where was this kid actually heading?
He shot his grandmother. He was being chased. He crashed his vehicle by the school.
Was this just an opportunity? What if he would have crashed earlier? What if he wouldn't have crashed?


There are a ton of questions surrounding this tragedy. Unfortunately, we will never have all the answers.

My heart goes out to the families.

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: Hecate666

We have no guns, you now can't even buy "kitchen" knives without ID so we should be safe right?

You need ID to prove you are over 16 to purchase paracetamol here in the UK or most energy drinks for that matter.

But why would anybody under that age require purchasing a kitchen knife?

They are running around murdering and stabbing feck out of one another for kicks and hoots Hecate666.

Requiring them to have ID to purchase bladed weapons and tools is not that bad an idea really in a similar manner they require proof of age to purchase alcohol.

The alternative being wee neds running around the town center and public transport stabbing hell out one with whatever the feck they managed to purchase from ASDA as unfortunate as the case may be.

I only posted this to show that banning and making any weapons illegal makes no difference, because it's not the weapons killing people is people with weapons who kill. You can't stop those who want to kill with any rules, kids can get knives from their kitchen at home, you can only stop those that want weapons for their safety to have any.
Meanwhile we do have stabbings galore, so the ID crap only stops normal people trying to get kitchen knives.

Banning anything doesn't work. I am glad we don't have a gun culture here in the UK but we have developed a murder culture by those who didn't get the memo and kill each other anyway.
How is that logical?

What really needs to happen is to a) call a spade a spade and b) have very harsh punishments.
As most stabbings and shooting murders are committed by diverse individuals, we need to address this fact, because it is a massive problem, and maybe revoke any residency for anyone after a loong sentence in jail. Anyone born here can still do a long stint. How about that?

originally posted by: Bluntone22
I remember high school in the 80s.
Pickup trucks in the parking lot with gun racks in the back window. Lots of farm kids and former boy scouts carried pocket knives.
Yet nobody got shived or shot.

The biggest change since that time is the prescribing of antidepressants to the same kids.

It's not just prescribed drugs. It's a trend. Monkey see, monkey do. It's gonna happen again and again and again. The USA is the only country in the world where this is happening at the frequency it is. The Right to Bear Arms has quite a bit to do with it and there is nothing anyone can do to stop what is gonna keep happening. It is what it is.