Saving UKRAINE is NOT Worth a War Between the USA and RUSSIA.

a reply to: Boadicea

You really think that Putin has any regard for your precious "rules of engagement"?!!!!!!

Despite all the evidence to the contrary?

originally posted by: Oldcarpy2
a reply to: Boadicea

No, I'm not the one ignoring safeguards and protection of civilians in a war zone.

Russia is. By using indiscriminate munitions against civilian targets.

Yes, you are, every time you equate unarmed and unaggressive civilians with armed civilians engaging in acts of war. It is exactly that distinction that determines the established rules of engagement.

And that's a war crime.

Which you seem to want to desperately try to justify and defend.

Nope. I have made very clear distinctions, which were developed and established long before I was even born.

I have no idea why, but it's pretty sickening.

I have been very clear in my explanations so you know damn well why. You just don't like them.

a reply to: Boadicea

Exactly. If they did not engage in acts of war, there would be no problem.

The example you presented is treason. Treason doesn't always mean taking up arms against your own country and countrymen. It also includes giving "aid and comfort" the enemy.

a reply to: Boadicea

"You just don't like them."

No, I certainly don't.


"Yes, you are, every time you equate unarmed and unaggressive civilians with armed civilians engaging in acts of war"

Since when was defending your country against an invading army considered an act of war?

a reply to: Boadicea

Yes, you are, every time you equate unarmed and unaggressive civilians with armed civilians engaging in acts of war.

Ukraine is defending itself against an invading aggressor on their soil. That is not "an act of war". Ukraine would be doing "acts of war" if they were launching retaliatory attacks on Russian soil.

originally posted by: Oldcarpy2
a reply to: Boadicea

You seem to have a very detached and dogmatic attitude to this war.

War is Hell.

#ing damn right it is. And it's absolute shameful and unconscionable that so many people want to see even more bodies maimed and killed and blown to smithereens. Especially civilians, who do not have the training or experience to engage at this level, and are grossly out armed and out trained by actual military forces.

Pedantic niceties are irrelevant to what is actually happening.

Vain glory and pride are even worse. But folks keep cheering on these very ill-prepared folks, who are scared and desperate and doing their best to do what is right, leading to countless deaths and mutilations of woefully unprepared civilians engaging in combat zones...

...and scream for more.

These armed civilians have little or no military training but you don't see them throwing up their hands and saying they'll just leave it up to the military.

Most have no choice do they? Men of fighting age will be shot on sight if they refuse to engage or try to leave.

They are ballsy and have courage.

Some.

They also have their backs to the wall.

In large part thanks to their own government and military. But you don't want to even acknowledge that, much less address it on a practical and effective level. You are quite happy to see them fight... and die.... because "Russia."

Your lofty criticisms of them are....misplaced.

I have never criticized anyone for fighting to protect and defend themselves. Not once.

I have only pointed out the very obvious and real dangers armed civilians creates for ALL civilians, including those who are not armed and are not fighting anyone. The rules of engagement were developed and established to protect innocent civilians. But I get it, you don't give a damn about protecting and defending the innocent and unarmed as long as you can cry "Russia! Russia! Russia!"

So you can say whatever you damn well please, but we both know otherwise.

a reply to: Sookiechacha

Ukraine is defending itself against an invading aggressor on their soil. That is not "an act of war". Ukraine would be doing "acts of war" if they were launching retaliatory attacks on Russian soil.

But we weren't talking about an "invading aggressor on their soil." We were talking about Ukrainian citizens engaging in acts of war against Ukrainian forces.

And you agreed that civilians engaging in acts of war makes them enemy combatants.

a reply to: Boadicea

'Most have no choice do they? Men of fighting age will be shot on sight if they refuse to engage or try to leave."

You got a credible source for that?

"In large part thanks to their own government and military. But you don't want to even acknowledge that, much less address it on a practical and effective level. You are quite happy to see them fight... and die.... because "Russia.""

OK. So it's all Ukraine's fault that Putin has invaded.

At this point, it seems clear that you will just go on being a Putin apologist until the cows come home.

You really think that Putin gives a seconds thought about your precious "rules of engagement"?

Apparently, yes, you do.

originally posted by: Oldcarpy2
a reply to: Boadicea

"You just don't like them."

No, I certainly don't.

Ahhhhh... so contrary to your previous words, you do understand.

"Yes, you are, every time you equate unarmed and unaggressive civilians with armed civilians engaging in acts of war"

Since when was defending your country against an invading army considered an act of war?

Now you're just playing deaf, dumb and blind. Which doesn't surprise me. Either you are not capable of seeing the dangers and issues here. Or you just don't want to address them.

a reply to: Boadicea

"But we weren't talking about an "invading aggressor on their soil."

I rather thought we actually were?

a reply to: Boadicea

But we weren't talking about an "invading aggressor on their soil." We were talking about Ukrainian citizens engaging in acts of war against Ukrainian forces.

And you agreed that civilians engaging in acts of war makes them enemy combatants.

No. I agree that civilians engaging in attacks on their own country on behalf of the enemy constitutes treason, and that they should be treated as traitors. Treason usually calls for the death penalty, upon conviction. So, such treasonous civilians should be considered enemy combatants, and taken as prisoners of war until they can be tried for treason.

I didn't agree that citizens who find themselves living in a war zone and taking up arms against invading aggressors are engaged in "acts of war". They are engaging in self-defense.

ETA

'Most have no choice do they? Men of fighting age will be shot on sight if they refuse to engage or try to leave."

Pfffft. Russian propaganda.

I know a person who consumes MSM media non-stop and wants the US to go to war with Russia.

He was actually shocked and taken aback when I disagreed.

My heart goes out to the people of Ukraine for the assault by Russia.

War is not the solution.

War is what happens when politicians ignore solutions.

Ina reply to: DBCowboy

In this case, it's what you get when a despot who thinks he's Peter the Great and rules with absolute power and wants to rebuild the old Soviet Union.

What solution is there to that?

a reply to: Oldcarpy2

How would a Russian invasion affect the life of the average Joe? He has no say in politics now, all this is going on above his head. If he lays his life on the line it is only for the illusion of choice. Same as the Russian soldier, Whatever was going on in Ukraine that Russia did not like, could have been handled in a subversive way. This invasion is a final statement that Ukraine is going under Russian influence for a very long time.

a reply to: Oldcarpy2

Sadly the solution was ignored. We've had despots before, we'll always have despots.

The point is to keep them in check with sanctions, trade deals, and anticipating crap like this.

I'm just a fat old bastard who #posts online and I could have figured this out which means that the assholes in halls of power already knew this was going to happen.

So the question becomes, "Why?"

Why do they want this to happen?

a reply to: anonentity

"How would a Russian invasion affect the life of the average Joe? He has no say in politics now, all this is going on above his head."

Yeah. Like your average Ukrainian is completely disinterested in the invasion?

Have you not been keeping up?

They are defending their way of life, their freedom and their country.

"This invasion is a final statement that Ukraine is going under Russian influence for a very long time."

Not if they can help it. Not going so well for Putin so far.

Let's suppose he takes every city.

How is he going to keep the whole country subdued?

Would you be happy if he did?

a reply to: DBCowboy

One in particular comes to mind.

Strong words and appeasement didn't work out so well.

Says one fat old bastid to another, mate!

originally posted by: Oldcarpy2
a reply to: Boadicea

"But we weren't talking about an "invading aggressor on their soil."

I rather thought we actually were?

You and I were.

The other poster and I were not.

a reply to: Sookiechacha

No. I agree that civilians engaging in attacks on their own country on behalf of the enemy constitutes treason, and that they should be treated as traitors. Treason usually calls for the death penalty, upon conviction. So, such treasonous civilians should be considered enemy combatants, and taken as prisoners of war until they can be tried for treason.

You are making a distinction without a difference, because it is the acts of war -- or the acts of aggression if you prefer -- which makes them an enemy combatant. They would not be traitors unless they acted against their country.

I didn't agree that citizens who find themselves living in a war zone and taking up arms against invading aggressors are engaged in "acts of war". They are engaging in self-defense.

Okay. Just don't cry and clutch your pearls when all civilians have a target on their backs because some are engaging in acts of "self-defense." They can't have it both ways. Anyone and everyone who wants to engage in acts of "self defense" should act responsibly and actually join their military, thus maintaining the lines between civilians and combatants, and thus maintaining the established protections and defenses for innocent civilians in war zones.

a reply to: v1rtu0s0

I signed up to fight. But they offer surprisingly little help/information about getting weapons and armor into the country.

The Ukraine embassy in Poland says its no problem, legal in Ukraine to bring whatever weapons you can get. But I somehow suspect the airline/US/Polish authorities would confiscate them or at least be very curious.

Regardless of how you feel about the war, its a good chance to get combat experience

It would be perfectly legal to travel from the US to fight on behalf of Ukraine.