Username Weise here at ATS was Minn. Shooter Killer

Originally posted by alien
Drogo...I'm apparently part of the problem?

Alien, you don't have to explain your position...it's simply the right call. That which did not kill this Weise certainly didn't make him stronger. Instead he decided to inflict his selfish malcontent upon an unarmed teacher,students, & relatives. Cowardly targetting the innocent using the element of surprise - I for one will remember the victims names and share in their grief. Also, no infamy should be allowed for spree killers, only oblivion.

In my earlier post I didnt mean no one cared, what surprised me was how most people started off by saying things like "What will happen to ATS"

I thought that too, what happens if they start calling ATS member terrorists? or something like that

SO, thank you for putting his posts together

Ground Zero personage: just remember not to turn the gun on others

Originally posted by drogo
no i uderstand that but to stop things like this from occureing you have to stop the root cause that is the point. untill you fix the leak in a boat how do you expect the boat not to sink? or do you just blame the guy who was suppost to bail?

More like I blame the boat for having a weak hull. The kid is what broke- the kid is what needed fixing.

As I see it, here were possible ways to stop this, please select the one you think is most practical and effective:
1. Assign a police officer to every single classroom in America and either arrest or write tickets for bullies. (how else do you propose to stop kids from being kids?)
2. Have a protective custody ward in school, just like they have for victims in prison, so that all the people who get picked on can be together away from the bullies (of course you'll have to extend this program to off campus too if you want it to be effective, so these kids need to be quarantined at all times).
3. When a child displays disturbing behavior especially association with violent groups or ideologies such as nazism, and ESPECIALLY when that child has endured traumatic events recently- afford him a qualified counselor to talk to so that he has an opportunity to get a good grasp on whats going on in his life and what he wants to do about it.

isn't there a saying? those who don't pay attention to history are doomed to repeat it. or something to that effect?

Yes there is. History says that if you don't keep your eye on a nazi he'll inevitably start killing people.

[edit on 23-3-2005 by The Vagabond]

Drogo

When I read you post, I never for a second thought you were trying to justify JW's actions but rather attempting to explain the rationale behind them.

You're suggesting something of what might have occuring in this guys mind and "drove" him to it. It isn't "justification" of his actions, as I see it you are talking about what can happen when someone is trapped in their own reality.

I too have worked with "at risk" youth, I too have seen them lash out in situations that don't require it, or is inapproprite. It is because THEY think it the only possible action, no one else. I don't write them off because they break the law. Of course the path of violence stops that and I have no sympathy for those that choose it. However I still try to understand the root causes of their behaviour and their situation. I know a lot of people that have been through tough times and out the other side. I also know some that didn't make it.

Understanding is important for prevention.
Understanding is not condoning.

Empathy is placing yourself in someone elses shoes and trying to see what the world is like through their eyes. Not many can do it, they only see their own black and white world. Unfortunately a lot people live in a grey one.

Life isn't fair, but most of us develop the skills to cope. Who are we to judge the ones that didn't have the opportunity or simple luck to survive through it. We can condemn it because it is a danger to society and the innocent tend to suffer, but we need to examine it and look to what WE need to do to stop it happening again.


[edit on 23-3-2005 by whita] To correct a rather stupid statement on my part.

[edit on 23-3-2005 by whita]

Originally posted by The Vagabond
As I see it, here were possible ways to stop this, please select the one you think is most practical and effective:
1. Assign a police officer to every single classroom in America and either arrest or write tickets for bullies. (how else do you propose to stop kids from being kids?)
2. Have a protective custody ward in school, just like they have for victims in prison, so that all the people who get picked on can be together away from the bullies (of course you'll have to extend this program to off campus too if you want it to be effective, so these kids need to be quarantined at all times).
3. When a child displays disturbing behavior especially association with violent groups or ideologies such as nazism, and ESPECIALLY when that child has endured traumatic events recently- afford him a qualified counselor to talk to so that he has an opportunity to get a good grasp on whats going on in his life and what he wants to do about it.
[edit on 23-3-2005 by The Vagabond]

Kids will be kids, but passing off aggresssive behavior (bullying) as normal is not the answer.

Kids have different breaking points. Many things go into the emotional makeup of a person.

I would accept your suggestion number 2 above if it were modified to quarantine the bully instead of the victim. The bully is the one who should be punished, whose behavior needs to be modified.

Funny thing is, I have raised two kids and seen it all, including the sad suicide of a gentle young kid, a classmate of my daughter, who hung himself. The kids at school picked on him constantly, calling him gay because he was effeminate. Fifth grade. I've had long conversations with many parents about bullying, and the parents of the bullys were most likely to shrug off the problem. It seemed that some of them were almost proud of the fact that their kids were bullies.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord
I put together a page of all of his posts:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

It's rather sad to read.

Yikes! The kid had some serious problems and seeing all his posts in order like that it really jumps out at you. Everyone should remember though, there are almost a million posts here and close to 600 new posts each day. He was posting for the 3 months I've been here and I never even saw one of them.

On CNN right now they're reading some of his posts from the Neo-Nazi boards and of course they're asking "why are these groups allowed on the internet?". I'm glad ATS isn't getting labelled as "one of those groups" but quite honestly I don't think this kid got any encouragement from the internet anyway. There was something wrong, a chemical imbalance or whatever, but the social system and the school system and the medical system all failed and lost control of him. Very sad for everybody.

i read through a few posts and need to ask whats up with the mother theresa syndrome?alot of you thought that you could've helped this kid but you are all wrong.he was hellbent on his idea already and he wasnt turning back.

Originally posted by Dr Love
All the conspiracy theorists out there might want to watch out. If this was some kind of conspiracy, the feds might be here to see who connected the dots and got it right.

If this was some kind of conspiracy, then you're are now dealing with subject matter that many people disregard........think about it.......anti-social behaviour would have been encouraged, dream manipulation(which, realistically, really only means verbal associations spoken during sleep, a kind of 'soma hypnosis'), and people who are going to enact this behaviour around him. Remember, you can't make someone do anything they don't want(yeah right), but picking a bad apple to begin with would only make your job easier........by reinforcing the negative emotions and providing a social recourse that repeats negative stigma as the venting mechanism. And if there is a conspriacy involved, you are now dealing with the existence of people who have a disregard for human life........consider the emotional impact of a child killing other children.......immediate social outcry, something that will revert attention to established authority figures, despite any previous discrepancies........

As unlikely as it may sound, I don't dismiss the possibility .........the similarities in 'high school shootings' and the relative frequency.....

I am still feeling like I am in mourning....for the victems of this horrible event.

Wow. That's all I can say right now.

Talk about a reality check.

I feel like my little comfortable world has just been invaded knowing that someone who carried out a school shooting was posting on this site. It sounds like this guy had a wicked difficult life, and my thoughts go out to all of the families of the victims, and to the family of the person that commited this.

Originally posted by jsobecky
I would accept your suggestion number 2 above if it were modified to quarantine the bully instead of the victim. The bully is the one who should be punished, whose behavior needs to be modified.

With the exception of number 3, all of those options were patently ridiculous, and were selected for exactly that reason. We have a quarantine for people- it's called prison. We should imprison every kid who calls somebody a name? That is obviously not practical.

It is not practical to attempt to remove every scrap of conflict and injustice from this world. If we focus all of our efforts on that and refuse to invest anything in helping people to cope with the harsh nature of the world, we will not be doing as much to stop this problem as we could.

Yes, to the extent practical we should stop children from being bullied. Then we should also accept that we can never entirely eliminate all pain, abuse, hardship, conflict, etc from peoples lives, so we must attempt to help weaker individuals who if left alone will respond inappropriately to hardship.

This has an animated film he apparently made:
www.thesmokinggun.com...


....Gotta catch this stuff sooner....

Good find, it's funny, there are warning signs, but these video's are so common with teenagers...

I clearly stated that the ones being picked on (the Bullee's rather than the bully, I.E Employee and Employer, this was not a typo) should receive treatment so they wont pull this #...

I really wish I just talked to Weise, I often talked people out of committing suicide...one of them being my wife...

Originally posted by alienSmall bit of history on me:

- Minority from a much lower socio-economic group
- Beaten down more times than I can remember etc.

Currently:

- Clean, educated, employed and employed for over 8 years working in Community Mental Health and Drug and Alcohol Rehab particularily targetting 'troubled youth'. Instead of taking ALL that anger from younger years and inflicting it on others...its channelled into actually seeing that happens for a reason - perhaps the reason might be that those events instill lessons and strength AND love within us that we can pass over to others walking in the shoes we've walked in.

I congratulate your finding your way out of the abyss you have portrayed, and applaud you for having had the fortitude and will power to do it on your own accord and without I presume, aid, for you have mentioned none.

Do I have sympathy for this young guy? No. Sympathy stopped when he started pulling a trigger. From that moment he stepped into a new world, one that you can't come back from...before then, yes, I'd have seen him as a victim of events in his life...he was...and heart goes out to him in that respect...it sucks arse, been there and know it well.

This condemnation of Weise and all who end up like him is to say that you expect all those who are in the deepest despair, for whatever reason, should have the fortitude like you, to pick themselves up and better their lives, yet you have chosen to help troubled youth. Why would they need your counsel when you feel as strongly about Weise as you do? After all, if he alone is to blame for his maladaption, depression, anti-social behaviour or mental imbalance and responsible for the sole curing of and coping with same, then so too should those you counsel. You obviously spend time with them as an enabler to allow them a brighter future, for I am sure it is not for a weekly game of basketball.

Who counseled Weise, who was there to talk to him, as you are for those you aid? We look around today and there seems to be in inordinate number of individuals suffering from some kind of syndrome, whether it is severe depression or ADD diagnosed in the very young, most of whom are made to cope via medication. What I would discern from your rejection of Weise is that even medication is a copout.

Whita- Life isn't fair, but most of us develop the skills to cope. Who are we to judge the ones that didn't have the opportunity or simple luck to survive through it. We can condemn it because it is a danger to society and the innocent tend to suffer, but we need to examine it and look to what WE need to do to stop it happening again.

Emphasis applied, and exactly!

Weise is not the first, nor the last to do such a horrible thing, but for some to dismiss him so candidly and crassly, is to not care to deal with the obvious cause behind such mental instability in our youth, which is extremely tragic.

So many of us seem to think they have the answer as to how young adults such as Weise failed themselves; they were weak; cowards, etc. Yet for all the posturing and proselythizing, situations such as this tragedy are not new, and society has obviously not agreed with such whimsical rationale. It is different with adults who crack, but teens? Society says to them they are not adult enough to drink, marry or go to war until a certain age, have responsible sex, or vote, but when they commit these crimes, rationality flies out the window and they are thought of as having a worldliness comparable to adults with hardened life experiences.

He too cracked! Can anyone here shed some insight into what went through his mind as he loaded his gun, shot his grandfather, armed himself further and marched toward that school? Was he fully in control of faculties to believe he could shoot up as many as possible, smile and wave as he did so and escape or at best be captured? Did he expect to die? Did he do so knowing he would die, and if the latter, how does that make him a coward really? I must be one heroic person in that case, for I certainly do not have the guts to ponder taking my own life, much less conceive of hurting myself. No! No one can know what was raging between his synapses, and we will never know. So rather than dismiss him and all others in a similar position as weak, start demanding we take care of our children, they are after all our future. For all you know a member of your family may be experiencing such torment, and could be the next declared coward, the fodder for others who care only to apply one-sided logic.

Well I truly pray for the families of those that lost, my heartfelt prayers to them and the victims and those affected.

For him? Evil..........This kid was Evil and a coward. He randomly killed innocents and for what purpose? None. Premeditated Evil. Period.

It took me a while to get through ALL of these but I did and I have to say that I am shocked that so many want to move this to RATS. Heck I haven't been in there for months. Why? I don't see the need as it should all be out in the open.

I am sure that S.O. has provided the information to the authorities as he should.

Could we have seen it? Well that is relative, if you think warning signs are something then half of us should be looked at. I mean with the Alien abducted reptilian Bush USA bashers and visa versa in here, some would say the signs are there. Heck most of you that know me think I am nuts. Maybe I need help because I am so patriotic? Many of you have thought it. Heck I have been accused of even working for the Administration by more than just a few. This is a potpourri of people here and there are members always on the edge of sanity in a forum of this size. We need to keep watch and attempt to bring someone we feel is at risk back down to reality.


A sad day for the Nation as it has happened again.......

Again a sign of where our society is going, murder so commonplace, the morals of Sodom, the removal of God from our society can only lead to these things.....


How precious is life? Ask the lady being starved in Florida........She could possibility even understand you!

wow-- can't believe this guy was on the site! i just heard about this today (sorry been backpacking for a few days and havn't been on much) but wow. i remember being in high school when columbine happened and how scary it was for a while. ironic though that when this happened ats covered up the fact he posted here. this site is supposed to be about showing cover ups... is this the first time ats has ever covered anything up by moving it to rats? i don't know-- i understand the reasoning but i have to say i still really object to the mods moving his posts and covering them. doesn't seem right. maybe his posts could be used to prevent something like this. i'm sorry for saying it but the covering up of his posts is a serious lapse in moral judgement-- at least that's my opinion--- how can we claim to be uncovering the truth and at the same time hide it?!

well people should check out the site before labeling us. we have nothing to do with that [edit]!

Mod Edit: Removed Profanity

[edit on 3/24/05 by FredT]

Gee.., I hope it wansn't something I said...

Really though the internet makes the world smaller. We cant expect ever contributor to be a model citizen. Personally I would be interested to read his posts. More interesting than the infinite variations of CSI and Law and Order.

"A sad day for humanity" Everyday is a sad day for humanity. This is a 15 year old kid, whose had it tough for his life and has been brimming with suppressed anger and teenage rage - as well as raging hormones.

So, he was sick of it and sick of everyone. So, he decided to kill himself and take a few with him - to go out with a bang so to speak. You will be surprised but there actually suicide sites online that recommend this method and say it in jest.

[edit on 24-3-2005 by Indigo_Child]

I have posted in this thread prior, but this clip as mentioned a few posts earlier has to be seen.
www.thesmokinggun.com...

Unreal fortelling to what was going through his mind. I saw a few things in his prior posts that gave hints to his mental state, which I have listed in this thread, but this animation that he posted was far more fortelling of a plot that he just didn't speak about, but that was already working its way through his subconscious. You will see other things in some of his posts here as well. Of course hind sight is 20/20, but this video was never seen by me or most others on this site and I think it is a mojor sign of things that were to come.