Username Weise here at ATS was Minn. Shooter Killer

Yikes!

Thanks for that SO. I only skimmed it (it's late and I don't want nightmares) but I remember some of those like the one on the muslim SS unit for example. It stuck in my memory because of the photo and the complete surprise I had that muslims were a part of it.

I didn't realise hid father committed suicide recently - must have been a factor to his state of mind.
.


[edit on 3/22/2005 by Gools]

Thank you very much for putting the posts together like that. He was very articulate.
What a shame.

Thanks for doing the quote list SO, I had just finished compiling all of them as well. From reviewing and rereading them, you see a consistent message of illusion, voices in his head, and strange dreams.

I find these few the most interesting in relation to the shootings:

In reference to Weird Dreams - a fortelling of future events???
www.abovetopsecret.com...
“Lately I've been having some really strange dream's, they seem very realistic and filled with colour and sound's, they really are more realistic than dream's from like last month, but a few night's ago I had this dream where I saw this very evil, very creepy canine's face coming toward's me, and I heard someone say "Shoot!," either way everything went black and I could feel my whole body jerking and shaking, and while this was happening I could hear very loud and very distinct gunshot's, mostly machine gun fire... I found it very weird and woke up immediately after feeling a little disoriented...”

In reference to Suicide
www.abovetopsecret.com...
"It takes courage to turn the gun on your ownself, takes courage to face death. Knowing you're going to die and actually following through takes heart, I don't care who you are. "

The School Scare, won't post clip b/c Worldwatcher has done so for us
www.abovetopsecret.com...

In reference to Civil War.
www.abovetopsecret.com...
“The tyrant does not understand arguments made with words, he only understands the langauge of the guns...

Now if you think I'm the only one with this mentality, then you're badly mistaken.”

In reference to The White Owl post.
www.abovetopsecret.com...
“A few months ago, when I was on my way back from the Theif River mental health clinic after a suicide attempt…”
“I had went through alot of things in my life that had driven me to a darker path than most choose to take. I split the flesh on my wrist with a box opener, painting the floor of my bedroom with blood I shouldn't have spilt. After sitting there for what seemed like hours (which apparently was only minutes), I had the revelation that this was not the path.

It was my dicision to seek medical treatment, as on the other hand I could've chose to sit there until enough blood drained from my downward lascerations on my wrists to die.

I am now on Anti-depressants, and just because you've probably never been through anything Like I have doesn't give you the write to say what you have.

I am trying to turn my life around, I'm trying really hard, the attitudes of people like you are what set me back.”




[edit on 3/22/2005 by infinite8]

Well, I notice MaskedAvatar's dream interpretation may have provided some 'perspective' for him, but whatever was going on in his parenting and socialization and peer group was something that no website community was in the position to help with.

My energy for helping people in trouble has diminished somewhat, but my concerns about the influence that less well-intentioned website forums can have over young people has grown. They have not developed responsibility and what they see and experience in some places is not responsible.

Thanks for putting the thoughts of this young man as expressed here in one place, SkepticOverlord.

He seems so well spoken in most of those.....makes it seem that much sadder.....but he did not come across as that negative or that pro-Hitler either, at least not on here. ( makes one wonder about the reports that his posts on those other sites were full of misspellings.....etc)

Thanks SO

To the family of the victims..........heartfelt condolences......in the ongoing discussions, it is important to remember that there are those who care only about the great injustice that has been caused them and a global support, albeit indirect, should take a watch over their coming days........



*****************

Thank you, WyrdeOne, for recalling the Kentucky reference.....for those unaware, it was a situation that centered upon the arrest of a student for writing a zombie story with dubious references to his immediate environment and took place in a high school.......important to note that it is a situation where 'an analysis of writing' was construed to be a preventative course of action.......if I had the link I would post it.....I attempted to locate it, but haven't yet.

Weise, according to the media, had many similar attributes to what has become a generalized conception of teenage shootings.........attired in Goth consistent outfitting, an association to Hitler(I believe Columbine occured on 4/20/1999; Hitler's birthday)(Hitler to begin with is a strong connotation and am concerned and interested in how Hitler is influencing our youth...), and

Source: Wikipedia under Columbine
of Cassie Bernall, who was originally believed to have been asked "Do you believe in God?" by one of the shooters,

Wikipedia

Source: MSN
in a nearby classroom, he heard Weise say something to his friend Ryan: “He asked Ryan if he believed in God,” Graves said. “And then he shot him.”

MSN

There are more than casual similarities and popped up after only about 20 minutes of research......How much of this is Weise emulating a horrible act and how much is his own?

Admittedly, there are explanations.......the socially depraved often may resort to dark clothing and relatively underground affiliations. The underground affiliations may almost universally incorporate Hitler and other satanic imagery as that is the most obvious way to subvert from a mainstream social environment and its use is in the shock value.....the use of the quote could be mimicary of columbine.........but Littleton was 'trenchcoat mafia' as well........are we to assume that only heavy metal listening, dark trench coat wearin' people are capable of shooting up their school? What about Zombie stories? WorldWatcher provided a link that stated Weise had written about Zombies and the kid in Kentucky was arrested for writing a story...only.

Make no mistake, I am not attempting to undermine the seriousness of this issue; it is a tragedy. But this has happened before.......and in similar fashion.

Stories such as this cause me to wonder......they seem to make us as a society more fearful of ourselves instead of more communicative. Because of the global media, stories like this tend to affect our senses and result in us reacting in fear and anxiety to our youth........the whole focus now is on Weise's posts so that we can discern foreshadowings that would have allowed prevention. But the only prevention lies in a society that doesn't ignore each other in favor of T.V. and other anti-social activity(internet has social value). Education should also be a focus; see my signature. Only through intelligence and awareness can their be any real impact.......cringing everytime we hear about an adolescent talk/write/even think 'Zombie' is where we are headed and needs to be avoided.

I was disturbed to hear about this, but I recognized and discarded my emotional reaction and started doing what we do here.....and that is, question what I am told.......

I was suprised to hear that he had shot his grandparents and friend. Those seemed to be the only people that he had caring interaction with. Well that and the members of ATS.

Originally provided by infinite8
Originlly posted by Weise

I am now on Anti-depressants, and just because you've probably never been through anything Like I have doesn't give you the write to say what you have.

There is an answer to his chemical consumption........I suspect that in the coming media attention, we'll find out what kind of prescription he had.

I would also like to reiterate that there is alot of information we haven't been exposed to yet.......and maybe won't be.

A prelimary question for any mods/admin.
Are the authorities aware of his postings here? I'd think that they'd find it helpful.

Also, the nazi site is the site of the Libertarian Nazi Green party or some such.

www.nazi.org

They are certainly a racist org. They are supports of Matt Hale and apparently associates/sympathizers of the World Church of the Creator.
They make a statement here.

Weise most clearly expressed his philosophy in the following statement of frustration with the raceless, cultureless void of liberal industrial society

I leave out weis's words, because, lets face it, the kids just some dumb kid.

Also, lots of people seem to think that this is going to spur the government to crack down and over-monitor websites.

They already do. They already have been established to monitor, at least at one point, this website. They're constantly talking about monitoring terror chatter. They are not talking about mere phone calls or discussions over brunch or terrorist coffee talk.

SO
I put together a page of all of his posts:

Those posts aren't very fun to read SO, going thru all of them while this was going on too must've not been a happy work day for you.

andrewtb
Why did the school traget him as a potential shooter

Because he was a little psycho who dreamed about being a nazi had mental health problems was fascinated with guns and ran around all day ina black trench coat with his pants tucked into his boots. Do you think those were unreasonable suspicions? This kid meets the profiles one allways hears about. Being a 'goth' doesn't mean you're a murderer. But if something happens and people look at you, well, what did you expect, and their looks are justified. This kid was already suspected of planning a school shooting on Hitler's Birthday!. Does anyone think that, perhaps, in the time when they were considering this information, that someone jumped up and said 'hey, don't stereotype this kid! So what if he's unstable, death obsessed, and completely irrational, thats not nice!'? ATS couldn't've prevented this, but that community certainly could've.

Originally posted by Dr Love
Based on his post it seems that he was intelligent and well-spoken.

Really? I got the impression he was an idiot.

What a shame that he had to go out like this.

Indeed. If only his first suicide attempt had been more succesful, or, when it ended up being a cry for help, someone had done something about it, rather than letting a mentally ill teenager brood on nazi and conspiracy forums, and unmonitored at that.

It's chilling reading that post

Its gross, and engrossing. Agreed.

dgtempe
I think we should all pay attention as to what somebody may be trying to say and not dismiss them as loons.

Perhaps, if his childish fantasies about fighting against the government and other people had been called as such, he'd've not done this. Perhaps if he had been told 'i'm sure your psychologists know what they are doing, stay on your medication', he might not have done this.

He did sign on to ATS hourse before going on his murderous rampage.

byrd
and I wonder if the social problems there contributed to what went on.

Indeed, I think it is hard to dismiss that as an important factor. Apparently his mother was also unstable, at least she claimed (or he claimed) that she'd cenataurs up close and the like. Also, it appears that the native beleifs of his tribesmen also re-inforced his insanity. Perhaps this can be something to be expected when, effectively, stone age cultures are over-run by foreign 'post industrial' cultures (not sure how to be clear without risking insult there).

Was it because the school is associated with the reservation?

Interseting, i didn't know that the now infamous 'grief counselors' hadn't been sent out. I did notice that the tribe was burning a somewhat large fire and would continue to do so for four full days, a sort of puritification ritual. This might be an interesting example where the old beleifs of the society provide a psychological release and closure for such horrible experiences.
Then again, it may do nothing, and cause it to build up explosively.

FredT
Hindsight is always 20/20 and there was nothing anybody here on ATS could have done to prevent this nor his classmates, teachers, or anybody who knew in in person. Cries for help are often quiet and missed though no fault on anybodies part.

He noted that he had tried to kill himself not too long ago and had been in a mental health facility. He was immedaiately suspected, apparently with good reason, for being a possible school shooter previously, he frequented a racist nazi forum and openly admired hitler and the nazis, he hade horribly low self-esteem, his family life was apparently a shambles....
I don't think hindsight is needed for the people around him. THe people here? Heck yea, reading his posts, they're not too unusual, especially in context and over time. But now, they scream his real intent.

wyrdeone
Is there any possibility in the minds of those members on the board, that this might have been a set-up, a false flag? Is there any possibility this young man was innocent?

Are you serious?

This is exactly the kind of whacked out irrational beleifs that supported and possibly enabled this sort of horror. I'm not trying to single you out or put you on the spot, but lets face it. Throwing a conspiracy into everything is not healthy. There's healthy scepticism, and irrational paranoia.

masked avatar
While we may all know that ATS is no training ground for neo-Nazis

Indeed, ATS is a strong anti-nazi group. One that, rather than simply block the nazis when they attacked the group and pathetically tried to 'storm the internet', toyed with them, humiliated them, showed them for stupid cowards, and then removed them.

yorga
He got them from hate filled articles, hate filled wedsites and hate filled people that fill up these websites with their never ending posion.

This is completely wrong. Read this lunatics postings here. He was mentally disturbed and apparently not very well attended, and even had tried to kill himself earlier. ATS didn't contribute to this kid's chemical imbalance, or the local society that couldn't deal with him properly, or any of that. To pretend that any website can be blamed for what he did is absurd, especially since no one on ATS urged him to do anything of the sort.

Children aren't born killers, the ideals are planted in their heads by unthinking irresponsible fools.

SInce when are kids not born killers? Humans are murdering animals. Every baby has that capacity, if not physical ability, within it. Just because this vile murderer was a kid doesn't change anything. He didn't need to be taught anything.

croat56
Never call someone an idiot or retard

You idiotic retard.

You dont know what theyll do.

Oh #, good point. Crap, I shouldn't read one line at a time...
OK i was obviously kidding before. I don't think everyone needs to be 'namby pamby' with each other. Maybe having someone point out that these horrible hallucinations that this kid was having weren't real, that the 'great spririts' weren't forwarning him, and that the apocalypse wasn't comming along and that it was foolish to think that a pale owl is a harbringer of doom, then maybe things would've been different.

frayed1
He seems so well spoken in most of those

Where do people see this? I've read his posts. He's not particularly intelligent or well spoken. He's a 16-17 year old kid. He's supposed to be able to form cogent thoughts and communicate them to other people.

infinite8
Those seemed to be the only people that he had caring interaction with. Well that and the members of ATS

On ATS he rarely interacted with other posters. True, there is some, but I got a strong impression from a general reading that he was saying stuff and was just 'one in a crowd' so to speak.

[edit on 22-3-2005 by Nygdan]

Oh god I can only imagine what was going through his head. Anti-depressants and the past suicide of his father leads me to believe he may have been a troubled kid. His post show no warning until you actually take the time and think of what he did this monday. I wonder if hes been planning it? I know the anti-depressants issue will get mixed signals so well leave it at that. Even though this is just the internet I still feel someowhat shocked. I mean this is like my community have having the murderer next door. IT saddens me a bit but the world is full of nuts. All we can do is hope and pray evil is never shown like this again from a forum member.

i was looking at his livejournal and msn profile.... creepy..

(not sure if im allowed to post a link)

Originally posted by Bleys

Originally posted by JAK
Oh shat Bleys. Him!! Oh no. I remember him now.

Damn.

I know Jak - this is just devastating to me. You just can't tell who is on the edge and who isn't. I am just .... christ I don't know what to think.

Bleys, I know all of us prayed for his well being, and tried to calm him down as best we could. Let's mentally lower the ATS flag to half-staff, and put a voluntary moratorium on anything even remotely approaching hateful speech for a while.

Let us never forget:

Human must not kill human; this is the first Commandment.

This applies to ourselves, and others. It is one thing Christians, Jews, Buddhists, and Native American Elders- among others- all agree upon as a matter of principle.

I hope someday we can all live in a world where there is no hate.

Weise posted here

www.abovetopsecret.com...

and he said that he was being blamed for a school shooting planned for 4/20.

The guardian has him talking about that same incident on nazi.org the following:

By the way, I'm being blamed for a threat on the school I attend because someone said they were going to shoot up the school on 4/20, Hitlers birthday, and just because I claim being a National Socialist, guess whom they've pinned?"

www.guardian.co.uk...

just for reference, the Libertarian National Socialist Green Party name that he used (but later changed) was 'Todesengel', which I think means 'death angel'. And if you notice, the kid used to throw in german words in his posts here.

My thoughts and prayers go out to all of the innocent victims and thier families, I can't imagine what they're going through.


Nygdan, there's no reason to dissect everyone's last sentence here. This just happened and emotions are running high, let people say what they have to say.

Originally posted by NygdanThey already do. They already have been established to monitor, at least at one point, this website. They're constantly talking about monitoring terror chatter. They are not talking about mere phone calls or discussions over brunch or terrorist coffee talk.

SO
I put together a page of all of his posts:

Those posts aren't very fun to read SO, going thru all of them while this was going on too must've not been a happy work day for you.

Please, just stop! This is the height of Monday morning quarter-backing, chock full of self-serving vicissitudes intended to instigate a row.

If the only praise I ever levy on the socio-political administrative abilities of this site, it would be to say, that to place all of Weise's post at the forefront, and available to all, takes remarkable courage in the face of a possible storm likely to come its way. I can think of no better reason to publicly defend ATS in the future than the humble gesture of laying bare Weise's sentiments, which you would rather closet, not in the best interest of showing the administration of this site has nothing to hide, but because you somehow find yourself sullied and dirtied by sharing a membership with an anonymous teen, one who happened to commit muliple acts of murder in your country.

Originally posted by worldwatcher
I don't know what to think about the media spin that he was a hitler admirer, it seems he was just questioning things in this thread and even states he is not a white supremacist, from what I have read, Weise came across as regular ATS poster with varying interests. I'm so sad about this, i don't even want to think about how anyone of us might have been able to help this kid if we knew what was going on inside of him. I am really feeling bad about this, more so than when I thought it was just another shooting.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

WW, he did say in one of his posts that he was an admirer of hitler, and that he and a friend of his would dress up in black and even at one time his friend did the Hitler salute thing while the national anthem was playing in the school. The media did not twist anything WW, he was a supremacist who believed that what Hitler did was for the greater good... He was obviously out of his mind. My condolenses go for the family of the people he killed, he might have needed some help but he was a follower of an assassin and a crazed man.

Man that is sad... one of us went ahead and did something like this...

but we do get alot of interesting sorts... alot of conspiracy theorists tend to be what normal society would view as 'freaks' 'or paranoid'... so i hate to say it... but looking in retrospect it doesnt really suprise me too much.. most of us here live on the fringe of society and what is deemed 'normal', and unfortunately it is those at the fringe who tend to resort to such measures to express frustration...

i find this kind of disturbing. i have to wonder if it was actualy the school\other kids that drove him to do it.

i say this as i had simmiler experiances in school myself.
from grade 1-5 i was beaten up on a daly basis. i did not believe in fighting i considered it wrong. i was the one who always ended up in trubble over fighting, obviousely i had to be doing something wrong. once my sister's teacher even yelled at me because my sister was always upset about what was happening to me. i was continuasly told it was my fault.

after grade 4 my family moved to a new area. still i was beaten up daily. it was at this time i started to defend myself and not run away as much still complaining i did not want to fight. i started to be able to come out on top every once in awile. if i started to win more boys would join in. so i had to start useing whatever weapon came to hand, be it a stick, belt or chain. i was even forced to "kiss" aseverly mentaly handicapped girl. i was not threatened i was phisicaly forced by at least 4 others. guess what , all the poor girl knew was that i had "forced her " to kiss me, not realizeing that i was being held up and my face shoved onto hers rather painfuly i might add. I got in trouble the princible of course would not believe me. i also tried to commit suicide at least once (the skipping rope broke when i tried to hang myself).

in grade 6 i was moved into another school to a special ed class because i was learning disabled. i did well i still had problems but my 8 person class stuck together. in grade 7 i was put back into a normal class i was still harrased though not as bad as previousely i did have one kid who would constantly torture me though, with forks on meter sticks and guns that fired tacs amonst other things. again no one believed me.

in grade 8 no matter how hard i tried i was failing. suicide was then apoached quite often i just wasn't able to stand on the tracks as a train came by or jump off the railroad bridges. then one day i was sick for a week. my mother went to school and got my homework. note i did not find out about the rest till the summer, no one told me. my mother was waiteing for my instument to be brought down so in boredome she looked at a test i was to correct. (my parrents always just sighned the failed tests and said they knew i could do better, they did not look at them because i was so embaresed aboput failing they did not want to make it worse). to this day they do not know of my suicide attempts. anyway she looked at my test perplexed, it was on time units i had everything marked wrong but she thought i was right. she called the school board kept asking the test questions and when the board member answered she would say "wrong". finaly he asked what she was doing. and she told him what was going on. after that point i was doing better and barely managed to pass. i will also note that the class went on 2 overnight trips i had been alowed to go. but when the graduation trip to wonderland came i was told that i had to work on some stuff in order to pass so i could not go. later in the summer i found some art projects at home that were graded i realized that these had been listed on my report card as not turned in at all. that is when mom told me about the rest. turns out this teacher failed all students who had been in special ed for their own benifit. i went to question him but he had changed schools and they would not tell me where.

in high school in order to protect myself i started to wear cammo and steel toed boots. i was very anti-comunist my workbooks were covered in anti-comunist slogans. i was an outsider with few friends. then in grade 12\13 i had two girls in one class and we continuousely argued. as well i would not write a "journal" that the teache required, i could not take the chance of her son (also in my grade and school) would get ahold of it and spread anything i said arround (he was popular). anyway the teacher had had it with the argueing. stateing the next one of us she heard would be kicked out. a while later one of the class clowns disrupted class than when told to leave whined that he wanted to learn. as this teacher would keep us after school for wasted time i said "jim just leave think of it as a vacation. i tought it was funny , i was asked to leave as well. i was muttering about how unfairly i was being punished as i packed up. just as i was leaveing the 2 girls went to the teacher and started to whisper i plainly heard my name. after schjool i confronted the teacher about being kicked out. she said that if she disn't she would have lost controll so i wasn't in trubble for it . bwhen i asked what the girls had said she informed me it was personal nothing to do with me.

next day the new vice princible aproached me and asked if i was me. i said something like ya who are you( i hadn't seen her before). she asked me to come to here office, this was about 11:30 just after i had eaten. i was then asked if i meant what said and i quote, "i will come back and kill you all to hell". i said excuse me? she read it again. i said " how could i mean it when i did not say it?".this started an arguement that lasted untill about 2:00, finaly after all of this third degree i said something like. " i couldan't have meant it i did not say it. i do not use broken english like that. if i was going to do something like that i certainly would not say it". round 2 argueing then she had to leave and i was passed off to the other vp. after it was 4:30 a girl came to the door in tears her purse had been stolen. i was asked to come back as this was very important come back in 10 minutes. i remember thinking important they are talking of haveing me arrested and this kid's purse was important? i went back i was told that my parrents had to come in for a meeting to which i replied both parrents work they can't waist time on bull # like this. i was told if they did not come i would be arrested.

i told my parrents they both took a day off work. my dad was just trained as his union shop steward thank god. the office was full of people my father tried to reason with them their evidence was 2 friends who were known to dispise me they said the exact same thing. that does not happen the vp's lost it and started to yell i was guilty and needed a shrink. my dad finaly persuaded them to let me talk to a church elder. i spent a month terrified because i knew that if anything happened to either of these girls i would automaticaly be blamed. i got an ulcer from it i could not face going back to get the 1 creadit i needed to graduate i felt if i went back i would end up in jail. yes i also know had thoughts on how fun it would be to go in to school with full military kit and shoot the place up.

does any of this sound familier? i only thought about shooting up the school after i was falsely accused of saying i would. after over 5 hours of the "spanish aqisition", after being threatoned with arrest which would ruin my life. i almost did because i was so hurt by them that i wanted revenge. again i ask does this sound familior? i think the poor kid was driven to do it by the school and authorities themselves. there is real possibility that he was the real victom in all of this. that is what my own experiance has shown me. likely he was driven to it by his own victoms. he should be remembered as a victome not as the perpitrater of a heines crime.

Kudos for you for writing that out drogo. That is obviously some pretty personal stuff. The is always another side of the story and we don't know everything this guy went through.


Edit: Gave you one of my way above votes for that post.

[edit on 23-3-2005 by whita]