Scotland goes into full lockdown, England to follow

originally posted by: Wide-Eyes
a reply to: djz3ro

my Uncle and Cousin emigrated to America 37 years ago and 30 years ago respectively.

That would make them Americans.

Brody is right...

They are only " Americans " if they are born there, are born abroad to American parents or take up American citizenship.

Stan Laurel, Charlie Chaplin Boris Karloff to name just a few, lived in America for most of their lives. They never became " Americans "

a reply to: Irishhaf

On the main topic, if the lockdowns are so succesful why are countries on the 2nd or 3rd national lockdown?

The type of lockdown and how it is enforced is important. England is on its third lockdown - the first two saw a combination of either schools and/or borders remaining open. As other users have already pointed out, this basically undermines the whole process. During our first lockdown, our international airports were literally waving people in, with a useless message of "hey, if you start developing symptoms, you should isolate", by which point it's too bloody late. And we didn't impose measures on travel from Spain, who was worst hit in Europe to begin with. This is to name just a few of our blunders.

New Zealand closed everything, and subsequently had this thing under control with a single lockdown, partly because their lockdown encompassed a lot more (i.e. among other things, total closure of their border to everyone other than returning citizens, who had to immediately self isolate for 14 days).

So my contention is that a lockdown could be an effective method for reducing transmission / reducing hospitalised cases, but it has to be tough. I would've much preferred a single period of a very restrictive lockdown for 4 weeks, rather than a half assed lockdown, followed by a tiered system, followed by another lockdown, followed by more tiers, followed by a third lockdown. I mean, it's a no brainer.

originally posted by: shooterbrody

originally posted by: djz3ro

originally posted by: shooterbrody

originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: shooterbrody

I hate to break to you shooterbrody, but so is America, and the rest of the civilised world for that matter.

We get about you see.

America is not filled with scots.
We only have americans here.
Thanks tho!

Well I know 2 Scots off the top of my head, my Uncle and Cousin emigrated to America 37 years ago and 30 years ago respectively. Where there are 2 there are way, way more. Like andy says. We get aboot

Guess if they didn't want to be Americans they wouldn't have emigrated?
Good for them coming to get freedom, and doing it properly!

They're not Americans though, they didn't get to vote.

originally posted by: Wide-Eyes
a reply to: djz3ro

my Uncle and Cousin emigrated to America 37 years ago and 30 years ago respectively.

That would make them Americans.

Brody is right...

He's not, they are not American citizens despite the length of time they stayed there.

originally posted by: Freeborn

Yeah, never really understood the Scottish-American, Irish-American, Italian-American, African-American etc nonsense.
Either one or the other.

Yeah but it doesn't make shooter right.

I agree with you, your parents could be immigrants but if you're born in America you're American. Much like my Uncle and Cousin, both born in Scotland are Scottish, they just happen to live in America.

a reply to: djz3ro

My bad, I thought by emigrated you meant they became citizens.

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: PurpleFox
And could you please explain exactly why they aren't effective?

Because the evidence is overwhelming that they in fact not only have not been effective, they have been extremely detrimental?

I really am not convinced that total lockdown is justified or effective.....but no-one has yet to convince me of an alternative approach.

Just randomly destroying the economy because someone feelz like it might help. Does that sound even remotely logical to you? This is even before you consider the fact that this virus is not really that scary (nowhere near as scary as we are being told it is).

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: network dude

So, we should have all just gone about our business like they did back in the days of The Great Plague?

I can't imagine how many barrow loads of dead bodies there may have been if we'd done that?

I guess we'll never know how many lives were saved through lockdown.

I was thinking old folks should limit their exposure until they get the vaccine, and everyone else should go on with life, as if it was 2017 and we were having a bad flu season. But you do you.

a reply to: network dude

I was thinking old folks should limit their exposure until they get the vaccine, and everyone else should go on with life,.....

I don't know what it's like over there but here many of our 'old folks' are very isolated in care homes....and yet still many of them have fallen victim to this awful virus.

Schools are one of the biggest superspreaders and they are never going to stop the spread until they are shut and the vaccine programme has reached large numbers of people.
Schools have now been shut over here - another massive U-turn by Boris - and the programme has started.
But its going to take time, possibly Easter or beyond.

Three more months could really box my head in.

Still we have people denying there is any virus and not observing even the most basic social distancing.

I don't know what the answers are, I'm confused.....I'd be amazed if I'm the only one.

originally posted by: Freeborn I'm confused....

you're supposed to be. blinded by science and barraged by 24/7 doom propaganda has that effect.

a reply to: DeusInAbsentia

New zealand is a terrible example for anyone to point at, while yes both are an island one is right next to a highly populated continent and the other is in a very remote location.

On its best day I doubt they see the numbers britain does for people crossing the border.

While people rush to count anyone that may or may not have had covid as a covid death, we have ignored suicides, we have ignored flu deaths, we have ignored cancer deaths (people couldnt get treatment), heart disease etc...

I am not saying people havent died purely from Covid I am saying the numbers are not legitimate and after destroying the economy a great many people will be dependent on the benevolence of their goverment and that should scare everyone.

But I am tired and grumpy so maybe I am misreading everything and maybe I am a little more paranoid about the goverments decisions than some.

a reply to: Freeborn

Schools are one of the biggest superspreaders and they are never going to stop the spread until they are shut and the vaccine programme has reached large numbers of people.

While high schools have seen an uptick (I could be seeing old data) they have not been the super spreader events 9 times out of 10 here.

a reply to: Irishhaf

one is right next to a highly populated continent and the other is in a very remote location.

You actually made my point for me here. I totally agree our circumstances are different, but had we done what New Zealand did (i.e. a total closure of our borders to everyone but returning citizens, who themselves would have to isolate for 14 days) as well as closing all schools and universities, we likely would've saved lives, and would have avoided the need for two more lockdowns and a tier system. The fact our international airports were still operational, and we were still allowing people in the country with hardly any guidance on self isolation is a bad joke.

That New Zealand knew to enforce these common-sense restrictions during a pandemic, but the UK didn't, is astonishing. If you care about the economy, you'd agree that a single lockdown done properly when we first took action in March/April would've been far more beneficial to our hospitality and retail sectors than the half-arsed lockdowns and tier system we've since had to endure.

Deaths per million says it all (if you put any stock in these stats); the UK sits pretty in the top 10 worst with 66 per 1,000,000 - New Zealand isn't even in the top 100 (4 per 1,000,000). And now their economy is open. Heck, they were enjoying live music and sports events as early as June last year! I had to cancel dozens of paid wedding gigs in 2020 which saw me lose a shed load of much needed income - you were only allowed 15 people at a wedding which at one point included the band! "Sorry Auntie, you can't come to the wedding now as we want the band to play Mr Brightside!".

a reply to: Freeborn

I think we're all starting to feel that. I am a very patient man, this hasn't been getting to me at all, but the fact we don't know where this is going to end is staying to bother me a little. And confusion over what we really should be doing is strong.

a reply to: DeusInAbsentia

Actually I disagree, for pretty much recorded history we have tried to isolate the most at risk and the sick and continued life otherwise...

Now we keep trying to isolate the healthy and it doesnt seem to be doing much good and the "expert" in the US keeps changing what the vaccine will do.

originally posted by: paraphi

Lockdowns are effective in China because people fear the authorities and they tend to be more obedient, and in some European countries people accept greater enforcement e.g. having to fill in a form to go shopping, or having police-manned roadblocks.

Absolutely. China's draconian measures (thankfully) weren't available to Western democracies. But Eastern democracies like Taiwan, Singapore and South Korea did not require them to deal with the virus so much more effectively than we have.

Culture makes a difference, for sure. It helps enormously if people trust and comply with government directives. Unfortunately, and with good reason, few governments in Western democracies enjoy the same level of trust.

But trust alone isn't enough. In Sweden, where public confidence and compliance has always been strong, the government's laissez-faire approach has caused thousands of avoidable deaths.

originally posted by: paraphi

They are in a "damned if you do, dammed if you don't" situation. Personally, I think they have been working in a very complicated crisis and have generally done well.

Again, absolutely, it's a very complicated crisis. That's why countries with exceptional leadership were saved from devastation, while the rest of us have muddled through to catastrophe.

As for "damned if you do", those governments which did make difficult, timely choices, and spent money preparing for a virus which was likely (but not guaranteed) to arrive at their shores, are now more trusted and popular than ever.

How can you imagine the British government has "generally done well"? Even the fiercely pro-Tory Telegraph is appalled: Revealed: How, on every measure, Britain's response to the Covid pandemic has been woeful, UK response to coronavirus pandemic one of the worst in the world, report finds. The British Medical Journal said in September, "Evidence of the UK’s higher overall death toll during the first wave of the pandemic relative to comparable countries is unequivocal."

We should ask why most governments in the West have failed so badly, whilst several Eastern democracies have done so well. If we don't expect and demand better from our governments, we won't get it, and with larger global crises ahead, we desperately need it.

a reply to: Irishhaf

Dude, during the Flu Pandemic we used the exact same methods we are now, what are you talking about? Closing schools, hospitality and retail, social distancing, wearing masks, banning public gatherings etc. And you know what's not surprising - they worked. But those cities that relaxed these prevention methods too early saw second waves, which is exactly what we see happening across the UK right now. If we actually enacted best practice from 100 years ago, we might actually be better off!

It took England 52 days to enter lockdown after recording its first Covid case. Compared to New Zealand who were already putting restrictions in place before they even had a confirmed case. The point being, every parallel we can draw between the UK and New Zealand, New Zealand come out on top.

And you talk about recorded history, but the world operates completely differently then it did even 200 years ago, and so we have to enact different strategies. Cities are far larger and more densely populated, we're better connected via improved infrastructure, we share way more public spaces with other people, and this is without mentioning the fact we're dealing with a virus that can spread aggressively whilst remaining asymptomatic.

But you seem to think what we've done in the past will necessarily be effective now, so maybe we could try what they did during the Black Plague; rubbing chopped onions on boils and drinking vinegar. Yeah, that'll show that bloody Covid who's boss.

a reply to: Freeborn

Both tested positive unfortunately.

Had to get an Ambulance last night for the Mrs after phoning 101 coz her fever went up to 38.8c and her breathing became laboured.

Waited about 6 hours, but when they final managed to arrive with all that snow and ice on the roads her oxygen stats were above 98, so they were not that concerned, hospitals were apparently chock full anyroad.

She's to wait till Monday and if no improvement seek additional medical help from our GP, looks to be on the mend this morning all the same.

I beat it in about 2 days, but you feel like you were hit with a sledgehammer with the fever and body pains, i got up Saturday morning asked the Mrs who i was fighting with. LoL

Anyhow everybody stay safe coz its not a walk in the park or easy breeze by any manner nor means.

originally posted by: andy06shake

...looks to be on the mend this morning all the same.

Glad to hear it.

a reply to: EvilAxis

Ta.