Absolute Proof the Earth is Round NOT Flat!

a reply to: turbonium1

You

I'm simply looking at all the evidence.

Your looking? But have no comprehension.

Just the simple fact line of sight microwave towers have to be 40 to 60 miles with in each other to make a microwave network work is evidence of a spherical earth. And that flat earth is a lie.

Your list....

Comets travel about the solar system, why wouldn’t rockets be able to do the same.

Distance to the sun measured by parallax

The way comets pivot around the sun.
Solar and lunar eclipses.
Comets pulled into the sun or Jupiter.

Over the horizon radar
Skywaves
Why shortwave has greater broadcast areas than ground FM
Why increasing antenna hight increases broadcast area
The sun sets over the horizon
The seasons
Why certain constellations are only seen from specific hemispheres
Retrograde travel of planets in the sky
Equatorial mounts for telescopes
Why Mars is closer to the earth at times then farther away
Visible man made objects orbiting the earth that were not there in the sky 100 years ago
Satellite TV
You can actually sail around the world
Airplane flight paths in the Southern Hemisphere
Eratosthenes of Cyrene measures circumstance of the earth around 249 BC
Earth's Curvature and Battleship Gunnery
Phases of Venus
Third party verification of Sputnik
Third party verification of moon missions
Third party / amateur verification of satellites in the hundreds. If not thousands
Star parallax
Earth based photos of the International Space Station.
Map projection
Great Circle paths
Long bridges and tunnels need to take in account the earth is curved.
Geodetic Survey.
Bouguer anomaly/survey


————

It only takes one item on the list to be true to disprove flat earth. And they are all true.

originally posted by: OneBigMonkeyToo
a reply to: turbonium1

You have not look at all the evidence. You only look at the evidence that fits your dumb narrative.

Von Braun said a lot of things. You pick on a biblical quote and twist its meaning into a fraudulent claim.

No, Von Braun picked the biblical quote, and YOU'RE the one twisting it into meaning something else, not what it ACTUALLY means, and states...

Here's his tombstone...



Like most people, any of those who have visited his tombstone would also know that he was the man who invented rockets, the first director of NASA's Marshall Space Center, and the man who developed the Saturn V, which supposedly flew humans to the moon.

What led him into his religious beliefs? He wasn't religious before he began to develop rockets which could fly into 'orbit', and to the moon. Up to that point, his rockets were used as weapons on Earth.

So he wouldn't have seen what happens when a rocket is NOT used on Earth, until he first developed them for NASA. The Explorer I "satellite" was launched in 1958, supposedly into space.

What could possibly have occurred within that time, to turn him into a devoted Christian?

If he saw his rockets fly into 'orbit', over that time, it only would've confirmed his belief that Earth was a ball, flying through space, at the time. This would NOT be a logical reason for him to become a devout Christian, of course.

But, obviously, if he saw his rockets crash into the Firmament, over and over again, within 1958-1962, that would certainly be a logical reason for him to become a devout Christian. Because he would have known, for an absolute FACT, that the Firmament DOES exist above Earth....

It would both explain why he was 'troubled', and why he suddenly became a Christian, by 1962, as his friend mentioned below...


According to W. Albert Wilson, a former NASA employee and Gideon Society member, in 1962 a troubled-looking von Braun requested to privately see him after hearing Wilson present the Gideon ministry to a church in Alabama. “When I left the office, I knew that he had become a Christian,” recalled Wilson. Later von Braun attended a Lutheran church and often read from the Gideon Bible Wilson had presented to him.


And here are some excerpts, from a few of Von Braun's speeches....I've noted a few points in bold...


"We do not expect to find, through the exploration of space, tangible proof of the existence of God. But as scientists we cannot but admire His handiwork more deeply as we learn more about creation. And indirectly we learn more about the Creator…For spiritual comfort I find assurance in the concept of the Fatherhood of God. For ethical guidance I rely on the corollary concept of the brotherhood of man.

Huntsville Ministerial Association, St. Thomas Episcopal Church, Nov. 13, 1962.

"Although I know of no reference to Christ ever commenting on scientific work, I do know He said: “Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free.” Thus I am certain that, were He among us today, Christ would encourage scientific research as modern man’s most noble striving to comprehend and admire His Father’s handiwork."

Religious Implications of Space Exploration: A Personal View, Belmont Abbey College, North Carolina, November 22, 1971.

"In this reaching of the new millennium through faith in the words of Jesus Christ, science can be a valuable tool rather than an impediment. The universe as revealed through scientific inquiry is the living witness that God had indeed been at work. Understanding the nature of the creation provides a substantive basis for the faith by which we attempt to know the nature of the Creator."

Responsible Scientific Investigation and Application: A Talk Presented to the Lutheran Church of America, Philadelphia, October 29, 1976.

recollections.wheaton.edu...

Notice that he mentioned God's handiwork two times - in 1962, and in 1971.

'Handiwork', or 'handywork', is noted a total of 13 times within the Bible. Some, in reference to human's handiwork on Earth, but mainly, in reference to God's creations - of man, Earth, sky....and of the Firmament.


So here is the quote referred to on Von Braun's tombstone...

Psalms 19.1, (KJV)

To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

(This is from the KJV, the version Von Braun used, and read, and quoted from, in speeches, etc.)


You seriously believe Von Braun wanted a quote from the Bible put on his tombstone, but didn't give a s%^& about what the quote actually WAS, what it SAID, what it MEANT, what it referred to? You think that it didn't matter to Von Braun what the quote was, that he only wanted to put a quote on his tombstone, from the Bible, to 'show he was religious'?!? And you think I'm the one twisting it, buddy?

He said that "science can be a valuable tool rather than an impediment..... revealed through scientific inquiry is the living witness that God had indeed been at work."


Would there be any specific IMPEDEMENT(S), by your god-like scientists, which Von Braun might be referring to here? Maybe the one Von Braun referred to on his tombstone? Which mentions the existence of the Firmament?

Obviously it is. What else could it refer to? in fact, that Von Braun mentions science is AN IMPEDEMENT should be enough to open your eyes, for once. You need to start seeing them for what they REALLY are - liars, who hide - IMPEDE - the truth from us, instead of science being used as a "valuable tool", to learn the truths, of God's handiwork!

originally posted by: turbonium1

originally posted by: OneBigMonkeyToo
a reply to: turbonium1

You have not look at all the evidence. You only look at the evidence that fits your dumb narrative.

Von Braun said a lot of things. You pick on a biblical quote and twist its meaning into a fraudulent claim.

No, Von Braun picked the biblical quote, and YOU'RE the one twisting it into meaning something else, not what it ACTUALLY means, and states...

Here's his tombstone...

I'm well aware of what his tombstone says. I'm also aware that it does not contain his own words. It has the words of someone else in it. The words of a psalm. Here are the words of another psalm:

He hath made the round world

Hmm....

Like most people, any of those who have visited his tombstone would also know that he was the man who invented rockets, the first director of NASA's Marshall Space Center, and the man who developed the Saturn V, which supposedly flew humans to the moon.

He did not invent rockets. That credit is usually given to Robert Goddard. The science behind rocketry goes back even further to Tsiolkosky. Given that the first rocket to launch anything to orbit was Russian, your desperation to attribute something to von Braun so that you can bend it to fit your delusions is a bit sad.

What led him into his religious beliefs? He wasn't religious before he began to develop rockets which could fly into 'orbit', and to the moon. Up to that point, his rockets were used as weapons on Earth.

He converted to an evangelical Christianity just after the end of WW2, so no.

So he wouldn't have seen what happens when a rocket is NOT used on Earth, until he first developed them for NASA. The Explorer I "satellite" was launched in 1958, supposedly into space.

Aprt from what happened when the Soviets launched Sputnik you mean? Apart from when a modified V2 was launched above the atmosphere and recorded the Earth's curvature for the first time in 1946?

What could possibly have occurred within that time, to turn him into a devoted Christian?

Life.

If he saw his rockets fly into 'orbit', over that time, it only would've confirmed his belief that Earth was a ball, flying through space, at the time. This would NOT be a logical reason for him to become a devout Christian, of course.

But, obviously, if he saw his rockets crash into the Firmament, over and over again, within 1958-1962, that would certainly be a logical reason for him to become a devout Christian. Because he would have known, for an absolute FACT, that the Firmament DOES exist above Earth....

He would have known as an absolute fact that that there is no firmament when one of his own rockets proved it in 1946.

It would both explain why he was 'troubled', and why he suddenly became a Christian, by 1962, as his friend mentioned below...

According to W. Albert Wilson, a former NASA employee and Gideon Society member, in 1962 a troubled-looking von Braun requested to privately see him after hearing Wilson present the Gideon ministry to a church in Alabama. “When I left the office, I knew that he had become a Christian,” recalled Wilson. Later von Braun attended a Lutheran church and often read from the Gideon Bible Wilson had presented to him.

Where does that say he was troubled by the idea that the Earth was actually flat? Where does that say he became a Christian after he started launching roclets?

And here are some excerpts, from a few of Von Braun's speeches....I've noted a few points in bold...

"We do not expect to find, through the exploration of space, tangible proof of the existence of God. But as scientists we cannot but admire His handiwork more deeply as we learn more about creation. And indirectly we learn more about the Creator…For spiritual comfort I find assurance in the concept of the Fatherhood of God. For ethical guidance I rely on the corollary concept of the brotherhood of man.

Huntsville Ministerial Association, St. Thomas Episcopal Church, Nov. 13, 1962.

"Although I know of no reference to Christ ever commenting on scientific work, I do know He said: “Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free.” Thus I am certain that, were He among us today, Christ would encourage scientific research as modern man’s most noble striving to comprehend and admire His Father’s handiwork."

Religious Implications of Space Exploration: A Personal View, Belmont Abbey College, North Carolina, November 22, 1971.

"In this reaching of the new millennium through faith in the words of Jesus Christ, science can be a valuable tool rather than an impediment. The universe as revealed through scientific inquiry is the living witness that God had indeed been at work. Understanding the nature of the creation provides a substantive basis for the faith by which we attempt to know the nature of the Creator."

Responsible Scientific Investigation and Application: A Talk Presented to the Lutheran Church of America, Philadelphia, October 29, 1976.

recollections.wheaton.edu...

Notice that he mentioned God's handiwork two times - in 1962, and in 1971.

'Handiwork', or 'handywork', is noted a total of 13 times within the Bible. Some, in reference to human's handiwork on Earth, but mainly, in reference to God's creations - of man, Earth, sky....and of the Firmament.

So here is the quote referred to on Von Braun's tombstone...

Psalms 19.1, (KJV)

To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

(This is from the KJV, the version Von Braun used, and read, and quoted from, in speeches, etc.)

Where does any of that say that the Earth is flat, or that von Braun's rockets didn't go to space?

You seriously believe Von Braun wanted a quote from the Bible put on his tombstone, but didn't give a s%^& about what the quote actually WAS, what it SAID, what it MEANT, what it referred to? You think that it didn't matter to Von Braun what the quote was, that he only wanted to put a quote on his tombstone, from the Bible, to 'show he was religious'?!? And you think I'm the one twisting it, buddy?

He wanted a quote that referenced the stars in the sky. He didn't use ones that would make him look like a moron and declare that the Earth is flat.

He said that "science can be a valuable tool rather than an impediment..... revealed through scientific inquiry is the living witness that God had indeed been at work."

Would there be any specific IMPEDEMENT(S), by your god-like scientists, which Von Braun might be referring to here? Maybe the one Von Braun referred to on his tombstone? Which mentions the existence of the Firmament?

Obviously it is. What else could it refer to? in fact, that Von Braun mentions science is AN IMPEDEMENT should be enough to open your eyes, for once. You need to start seeing them for what they REALLY are - liars, who hide - IMPEDE - the truth from us, instead of science being used as a "valuable tool", to learn the truths, of God's handiwork!

His impediment is not a firmament, it's ignorance.

originally posted by: neutronflux
Your list....


It only takes one item on the list to be true to disprove flat earth. And they are all true.

They're all crap, explained to you many times before, posting it over and over won't change it being crap, as I've told you many times, also.

It's a sad thing to be so very blind, and in denial, and ignorance.... when the truth is so clear, for all to see, right now.

originally posted by: turbonium1

originally posted by: neutronflux
Your list....


It only takes one item on the list to be true to disprove flat earth. And they are all true.

They're all crap, explained to you many times before, posting it over and over won't change it being crap, as I've told you many times, also.

It's a sad thing to be so very blind, and in denial, and ignorance.... when the truth is so clear, for all to see, right now.

Saying it's crap and proving it's crap are two different things. You have given us no incentive to take your word for it, so how about you back it up with some actual logical argument and facts?

originally posted by: OneBigMonkeyToo

I'm well aware of what his tombstone says. I'm also aware that it does not contain his own words. It has the words of someone else in it. The words of a psalm.


Here are the words of another psalm:

He hath made the round world

Hmm....

"He hath made the round world so sure, * that it cannot be moved." is the full quote, the last part of which you deliberately left out, you nitwit.

round
adjective
1.
shaped like or approximately like a circle or cylinder.
"she was seated at a small, round table"
Similar: circular disk-shaped disk-like ring-shaped hoop-shaped hooplike annular spherical globular ball-shaped globe-shaped orb-shaped

2.
shaped like or approximately like a sphere.
shaped like or approximately like a circle or cylinder.

Round is defined first as a circle shape, before a ball shape, but - once again - you deliberately left that out.

Why does the quote say Earth cannot be moved, then? You like when it says Earth is round, even though it means a circle. All you've done is cherry pick the part you THOUGHT supported your claim, and ignored the other part, because it shreds your claim to pieces! Unlike you, the whole quote supports my argument....sorry about what it does to yours, though!

I guess it's hard for you to be honest about anything you claim, so Ill just keep on pointing out all of your lies and omissions in future, as I have here. Go on playing the fool, it's fine with me.

originally posted by: OneBigMonkeyToo
He would have known as an absolute fact that that there is no firmament when one of his own rockets proved it in 1946.

He wanted a quote that referenced the stars in the sky. He didn't use ones that would make him look like a moron and declare that the Earth is flat.

Look at both of your claims - first you claim he knew for absolute fact the firmament doesn't exist, your second claim is that he referenced a quote about the "stars in the sky"!

No, it references the Firmament. The Firmament you believe he knew didn't exist, which would make him look like a moron, if he actually 'knew' it didn't exist for absolute fact!

At least you're right that he didn't use a quote which would make him look like a moron, it only makes others look like morons, because they cannot grasp what the quote really means, despite how blatantly obvious it is to a10 year old child.

"It is he who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers.."

Job 26:10

And the verse which said 'round' was wrongly interpreted from the Hebrew word which means 'circle'. There is another Hebrew word which DOES mean 'sphere', which was NOT mentioned in the Hebrew texts.

That's the truth.... like it or not.

a reply to: turbonium1

Round, not flat. Round. Like a sphere is round. Not flat.

Do any of von Braun's quotes reference the Earth being flat? Does any of this writings or broadcasts on space ay the Earth is flat, that there is a solid dome above us?

Why would a man who believed that space travel is impossible dedicate his life to it?

Why would you forget to quote all of the bits you got wrong, like when he became a Christian, who invented rocketry, you know, all that stuff.

Anything you say about his choice of Bible verse is irrelevant, it's your interpretation of what you think he meant, and what you think he meant is entirely a product of your warped world view. He designed the rockets that flew to the moon. Here's a quote fromhim. You'll find it familiar as you've already used it:

"We do not expect to find, through the exploration of space, tangible proof of the existence of God. But as scientists we cannot but admire His handiwork more deeply as we learn more about creation

I've emboldened the important bit.

Here's another one:

It [the rocket] will free man from his remaining chains, the chains of gravity which still tie him to this planet. It will open to him the gates of heaven.

What we are seeking in tomorrow's [Apollo 11] trip is indeed that key to our future on earth. We are expanding the mind of man. We are extending this God-given brain and these God-given hands to their outermost limits and in so doing all mankind will benefit. All mankind will reap the harvest…. What we will have attained when Neil Armstrong steps down upon the moon is a completely new step in the evolution of man.

Wow - he believed in gravity too. Do those quotes sound like someone who doesn't think his rocket will work?

The rockets he designed prove the Earth is a sphere. Your use of him as a poster boy for your nonsense is hysterical.

a reply to: turbonium1

"Thou shalt not bear false witness"

a reply to: turbonium1

Round is defined first as a circle shape, before a ball shape, but - once again - you deliberately left that out.

Even early civilizations knew the difference between round and circle.... a circle is a 2d shape... something round is 3d...

we knew 3d shapes before we could write a 2d shape in sand or dirt...

a monkey knows the difference... and can create a circle on paper. So could cavemen who carved circles on walls, but knew the difference between a roundish rock and a circle

Hows your religious view lookin now?

originally posted by: OneBigMonkeyToo
Do any of von Braun's quotes reference the Earth being flat? Does any of this writings or broadcasts on space ay the Earth is flat, that there is a solid dome above us?

Anything you say about his choice of Bible verse is irrelevant, it's your interpretation of what you think he meant, and what you think he meant is entirely a product of your warped world view.

Where do I 'interpret' what he meant? HE is the one who quoted a passage that says the Firmament exists, as his last words on Earth!

YOU'RE the one who is trying to twist it into meaning something else, not me. I take it as written, which is how it should be taken. Trying to twist it to fit your argument doesn't work.

a reply to: turbonium1

You take it as written to twist it into your own meaning. Anyone with any common sense at all sees it as it is.

I can't believe this thread is still going.

originally posted by: Oldcarpy2
a reply to: turbonium1

You take it as written to twist it into your own meaning. Anyone with any common sense at all sees it as it is.

It doesn't need to be twisted into my "own meaning", because it clearly FITS the meaning!

There's no other way to see it, BUT as written, and that's what I'm doing here. You cannot twist it into something else, to fit your argument. It is NOT common sense to twist it into something else, as you have done.

a reply to: Oldcarpy2

This is another FE thread.....the other one is still going - 124 pages of it.

Don't look at it, you won't be able to help yourself and will get drawn in to trying to convince Trurbo that he has a head full of mushrooms but it'll just end up doing your napper in.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: turbonium1

Round is defined first as a circle shape, before a ball shape, but - once again - you deliberately left that out.

Even early civilizations knew the difference between round and circle.... a circle is a 2d shape... something round is 3d...

we knew 3d shapes before we could write a 2d shape in sand or dirt...

a monkey knows the difference... and can create a circle on paper. So could cavemen who carved circles on walls, but knew the difference between a roundish rock and a circle

Hows your religious view lookin now?

A round table is not a ball-shaped table. Round is a curved line - a circle, or an ovoid shape, are both round.

What would you call an ovoid shape? Not a circle, not a sphere. An ovoid is round in shape.

To describe something as round, or circular, is not describing a sphere, or ball-shaped object. Earth is described as round, and circular, not a sphere, or ball-shaped. That's the difference here.

a reply to: turbonium1

Still doesn’t explain circular paths, and why the flat earth map has distorted and increasingly wrong distances for the earth below the Southern Hemisphere.

a reply to: turbonium1

He didn't quote the passage.

This is what his gravestone says:

Psalms 19:1

Where is that a quote? It isn't even clear which Bible he's using

He references a biblical verse that references the stars in the heavens. There is no meaning attached to it, no other words, nothing.

You have decided what he meant by it based purely on what you want one specific word in one specific version of the bible to mean. Plenty of other bibles don't mention firmament', and plenty of people interpret 'firmament' entirely differntly to the way you're doing.

Go look at the words of von Braun that talk about launching rockets. He has no problem with them working, going to space or landing on the moon and planets. Why not discuss those?

a reply to: OneBigMonkeyToo

Turbo lied about what was on the actual gravestone? Lying about what is literally written in stone? Misquoting the gravestone all this time?

That seems like a sin.......... that would separate you from god?

What was Turbo’s reason people would lie about the shape of the earth. But Turbo is literally sinning and is hidden from god by sinning? Despite the shape of the earth?

Crazy....

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: OneBigMonkeyToo

Turbo lied about what was on the actual gravestone? Lying about what is literally written in stone? Misquoting the gravestone all this time?

That seems like a sin.......... that would separate you from god?

What was Turbo’s reason people would lie about the shape of the earth. But Turbo is literally sinning and is hidden from god by sinning? Despite the shape of the earth?

Crazy....

You guys are funny he was originally a protestant and in later life became a Pentecostal Evangelical. Not that much of a stretch as people get older they tend to gravitate towards religion. When they are young going to church just isn't as important. As for some major change, there wasn't one so not sure why this is even being discussed. there's not a lot of difference between the two. Both believe in salvation through Christ. You could argue he never really changed his religion.

a reply to: dragonridr

Brought up as a Lutheran initially, in the same way most people have a nominal religion donated to them by their parents.

Turbonium has decided that von Braun had some kind of Damascene conversion in later life that compelled him to renounce everything he had worked all his life to achieve, all on the basis of a word that may or may not have been in the Bible that von Braun preferred. That conversion was so deeply held, and his commitment to the word of God so profound, that he decided not to preach the word to anyone who would listen but instead leave a cryptic reference to a psalm to be revealed after his death - even though he knew he was dying and could have revealed the "truth" without any threat to his life, he was done anyway.

He dealt with the exploration of space. The psalm is a reference to that, not a vague repudiation of it. There's not even a guarantee that he was the person that chose the inscription. Here's an interesting article on von Braun

crev.info...

and it has this to say about his becoming more religious in later life:

I spoke by phone with von Braun’s secretary, Mrs. Bonnie Holmes, and asked if she believed von Braun to be a Christian, and she replied that he liked to whistle the tune of “The Old Rugged Cross.” Also, his favorite scripture verse was Ps. 19:1, “The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork.”

No firmament mentioned there, and it was obvious;y known to be a favourite passage - it could easily have been someone else's choice for him and not his own.

The article discusses von Braun's faith, and his writings on it, in great detail. Not once, even in articles written not long before his death, did he make any reference to a flat Earth, space travel being impossible, or his rockets not working as recorded in history. He quite openly and clearly discusses the Apollo missions as being fact, which they are.

Turbonium is pinning his entire hopes on one word, with no idea if it was ever used by von Braun, or even if the Bible verse was requested by the man at all.