Absolute Proof the Earth is Round NOT Flat!

originally posted by: OneBigMonkeyToo
Where is that a quote? It isn't even clear which Bible he's using

He references a biblical verse that references the stars in the heavens. There is no meaning attached to it, no other words, nothing.

You have decided what he meant by it based purely on what you want one specific word in one specific version of the bible to mean. Plenty of other bibles don't mention firmament', and plenty of people interpret 'firmament' entirely differntly to the way you're doing.

Go look at the words of von Braun that talk about launching rockets. He has no problem with them working, going to space or landing on the moon and planets. Why not discuss those?

Because his final words are his most important, most truthful words, above all others. He was finally able to speak the truth, without retribution, without fear of personal attacks. That's why his final message to the world is so important to

As for which Bible he read from, I've already addressed that....

According to W. Albert Wilson, a former NASA employee and Gideon Society member, in 1962 a troubled-looking von Braun requested to privately see him after hearing Wilson present the Gideon ministry to a church in Alabama. “When I left the office, I knew that he had become a Christian,” recalled Wilson. Later von Braun attended a Lutheran church and often read from the Gideon Bible Wilson had presented to him.

The Gideon Bible is the KJV of the Bible, as I also told you.

Psalm 19:1
King James Version
19 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

www.biblegateway.com...

And as for different 'interpretations' of the Firmament, there is only one meaning for it....

In biblical cosmology, the firmament is the vast solid dome created by God on the second day to divide the primal sea (called tehom) into upper and lower portions so that the dry land could appear:[1][2]

Then God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.” Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day.

en.wikipedia.org...


And once again, this biblical verse does NOT reference "the stars in the heavens"! You cannot twist it into such a thing, and you know that. Show me ANY version of this passage which mentions 'stars' in it, and if you cannot show me one, then admit you are making it all up, like an honest adult would do. Of course, you aren't honest, and will not admit it, will you?

Von Braun knew EXACTLY what the passage said, and knew it was the truth, which is why he put it on his tombstone, for the world to see, and understand the truth, which Von Braun clearly knew, from his rockets hitting the Firmament, every single time they flew up high enough above Earth.

If you choose to refuse what Von Braun wrote on his tombstone as the truth, then it is your burden to deal with, throughout the rest of your Earth-bound life.

a reply to: turbonium1

What exactly is written on von Braun‘s grave stone?

a reply to: turbonium1

Again..

Still don’t know what to do with comets that proves inner planetary travel is possible. There is no layer of liquid above earth’s atmosphere, the night sky is not permanent, and objects can and do circular the sun. The only explanation a comet would pivot trajectory around the sun is because of gravity. And comets show travel about the solar system and planets is a reality. And rockets do the same.



Comets proves you lie, and your model is a lie.

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: OneBigMonkeyToo

Turbo lied about what was on the actual gravestone? Lying about what is literally written in stone? Misquoting the gravestone all this time?

That seems like a sin.......... that would separate you from god?

What was Turbo’s reason people would lie about the shape of the earth. But Turbo is literally sinning and is hidden from god by sinning? Despite the shape of the earth?

Crazy....

It referred to that passage, just as I told you many times, look at my previous posts on that. If you put a quote or refer to a passage from the Bible, it's because you find it MORE significant than anything else, that's why it's so significant, and often is MUCH MORE powerful, than your own words.

Why a brilliant, intelligent man would want to put a Biblical reference on his tombstone, that describes the Firmament, created by God, if he didn't even believe it, or KNEW it wasn't true, because if he DID know it wasn't true, or believe it was true, why would he quote this specific passage, when thousands other quotes which DO NOT mention the Firmament are found within the Bible? Probably about 99% of the Bible doesn't mention Firmament, anywhere at all, so you think it was sheer coincidence, totally meaningless, that Von Braun would pick this passage, so if you believe that Von Braun knew the Firmament was all bs, it didn't exist at all, that it was a fairy tale, do you really believe he'd have referred to it, for his last words on Earth? This would be your argument, that he was a complete moron, who knew the Firmament was claptrap, when rockets flew into 'space', and to the 'moon', because if that was the case, as you claim, SPECIFICALLY choosing a passage claiming the Firmament exists, if he knew it did NOT exist, would make him an idiot, a fool, a hypocrite, etc.

The idea that he wanted to show he was a 'religious' man, or 'Christian', by referencing one passage, at random, which he knew was complete nonsense, after he picked it, at random, but he wanted to keep this passage, which was all bs, inscribed on his tombstone!

Why would Von Braun select a passage from thousands within the Bible, which is supposedly a 'meaningless' passage, to him, when Von Braun NEVER said anything within the Bible was meaningless?

Show me where he said that...if you can't, then you're lying, obviously.

Von Braun was a devout Christian, who always claimed that the Bible contains all truths, which stood up today, in all truths. At the same time, he was claiming that his rockets flew into 'space', and flew to the moon, which conflicts his claims of the Bible being truth.....

Only one claim is true. It is only one claim which he REALLY believes is true. When he had nothing to lose, he spoke the truth to us, with a reference to the Firmament.

If he didn't believe the Firmament existed, he would have KNOWN it didn't exist, and he would NOT choose this passage, if he knew it was NOT the truth! Why would he select a passage he knew wasn't true, from the Bible, if he wanted to show that he believed in the Bible? What if he believed in most of the Bible, as true, except about Earth having a Firmament above it, which he found out was not true? It's the one specific part, within the Bible, that Von Braun would NOT select, to put on his tombstone!

But, it is the one specific part, within the Bible, he WOULD, and DID, put on his tombstone, if he really DID know that the Firmament was true, Simple as that.

originally posted by: turbonium1

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: OneBigMonkeyToo

Turbo lied about what was on the actual gravestone? Lying about what is literally written in stone? Misquoting the gravestone all this time?

That seems like a sin.......... that would separate you from god?

What was Turbo’s reason people would lie about the shape of the earth. But Turbo is literally sinning and is hidden from god by sinning? Despite the shape of the earth?

Crazy....

It referred to that passage, just as I told you many times, look at my previous posts on that. If you put a quote or refer to a passage from the Bible, it's because you find it MORE significant than anything else, that's why it's so significant, and often is MUCH MORE powerful, than your own words.

It doesn;t quote the bible. It references a verse in it. Which bible? Which version of that verse?

Why a brilliant, intelligent man would want to put a Biblical reference on his tombstone, that describes the Firmament, created by God, if he didn't even believe it, or KNEW it wasn't true, because if he DID know it wasn't true, or believe it was true, why would he quote this specific passage, when thousands other quotes which DO NOT mention the Firmament are found within the Bible? Probably about 99% of the Bible doesn't mention Firmament, anywhere at all, so you think it was sheer coincidence, totally meaningless, that Von Braun would pick this passage, so if you believe that Von Braun knew the Firmament was all bs, it didn't exist at all, that it was a fairy tale, do you really believe he'd have referred to it, for his last words on Earth? This would be your argument, that he was a complete moron, who knew the Firmament was claptrap, when rockets flew into 'space', and to the 'moon', because if that was the case, as you claim, SPECIFICALLY choosing a passage claiming the Firmament exists, if he knew it did NOT exist, would make him an idiot, a fool, a hypocrite, etc.

The idea that he wanted to show he was a 'religious' man, or 'Christian', by referencing one passage, at random, which he knew was complete nonsense, after he picked it, at random, but he wanted to keep this passage, which was all bs, inscribed on his tombstone!

Why would Von Braun select a passage from thousands within the Bible, which is supposedly a 'meaningless' passage, to him, when Von Braun NEVER said anything within the Bible was meaningless?

Show me where he said that...if you can't, then you're lying, obviously.

Von Braun was a devout Christian, who always claimed that the Bible contains all truths, which stood up today, in all truths. At the same time, he was claiming that his rockets flew into 'space', and flew to the moon, which conflicts his claims of the Bible being truth.....

Only one claim is true. It is only one claim which he REALLY believes is true. When he had nothing to lose, he spoke the truth to us, with a reference to the Firmament.

If he didn't believe the Firmament existed, he would have KNOWN it didn't exist, and he would NOT choose this passage, if he knew it was NOT the truth! Why would he select a passage he knew wasn't true, from the Bible, if he wanted to show that he believed in the Bible? What if he believed in most of the Bible, as true, except about Earth having a Firmament above it, which he found out was not true? It's the one specific part, within the Bible, that Von Braun would NOT select, to put on his tombstone!

But, it is the one specific part, within the Bible, he WOULD, and DID, put on his tombstone, if he really DID know that the Firmament was true, Simple as that.

Pointless word salad.

Von Braun's faith was geared towards God giving man the capacity to explore the universe, and he helped designed the equipment for us to do that. He did not believe in a firmament prventing that from happening.

Prove with his own words that he believed that you can't explore space.

Prove he specifically asked for that bible verse on his tombstone.

Prove that the verse, if he requested it personally, was one that referenced a firmament.

Prove that, if it referenced the firmament, he took that to mean a solid barrier to the space travel he pretty much invented. and not just "the sky".

You can provide none of that. You have nothing but empty, pointless rhetoric.

No, I've already proven Von Braun had the KJV of the Bible, which was given to him by his friend and former NASA co-worker, who was a Gideon, who read the KJV Bible. That proves Von Braun quoted the KJV Bible, which describes it as the Firmament.

Why would you possibly believe that he did not have such a Bible, other than that you refuse to accept the fact that he DID have it? The evidence shows he did, and there is no evidence to the contrary.

You also suggest I must prove Von Braun requested this quote be put on his tombstone, which would suggest you have proof that he did NOT request it, because when millions of other inscriptions on tombstones have normally been a request of the deceased, claiming one inscription is NOT by request of the deceased, bears the burden of proof. Same as if you went to work every day, and someone said you didn't go to work one day, has the burden of proof. Understand what I'm saying here?

When something is commonly done, claiming it wasn't done for one time bears the burden of proof. Not the other way around. Nobody needs to prove a million inscriptions on tombstones are by request of the desceased, because it is normal, commonplace, to request it, by the deceased, within a last will and testament, or other means. Not by some idiot who suddenly does it for fun, or whatever. THAT is the claim YOU are making here. Some idiot must have put it there, not the guy buried in the grave below it! Come on, that's a joke!

This quote was clearly important to Von Braun, and if you think it was completely meaningless to him, then you are delusional, or in denial of reality. He wasn't an idiot, he knew what the quote meant, and that's why it was so important to him, to put it as his last words, by referencing the quote on his tombstone. Does anyone really think he had no clue about it, that some idiot put it on his tombstone, for no reason? This is total nonsense.

a reply to: turbonium1

Nope. Still no proof of anything but your own delusions.

Find some actual words from Wernher von Braun that says "There is a solid dome above the Earth and my rockets can't fly through it".

Find me some proof that von Braun's personal favourite verse said "firmament".

"A friend of a friend of the horse's jockey's cousin told me" proves nothing about the nature of the universe.

a reply to: turbonium1

You exact words

originally posted by: turbonium1

Do you seriously believe Von Braun would specifically refer to the Firmament, from a specific passage in the Bible, and put it on his tombstone, for no reason at all?

Now. Where does Von Braun specifically have anything written anything about a Firmament on his gravestone?

a reply to: turbonium1

Why can comets travel about space you label the firmament. Why can asteroids and planets travel through space you label the firmament. Why can radiation from the sun travel through space you label the firmament. (We know a few feet of water blocks UV rays from having oceans) But rockets cannot travel the same space as comets, asteroids, planets, and radiation from the sun. With no proof there is a layer of liquid water above the earth blocking radiation from the sun.

How does that work?

Any chance Capt. Turbo is watching the rocket launch?

More Cgi im guessing.... its all fake news LOL

a reply to: Akragon

Has it crashed into the glass dome yet?

originally posted by: OneBigMonkeyToo
Find some actual words from Wernher von Braun that says "There is a solid dome above the Earth and my rockets can't fly through it".

Find me some proof that von Braun's personal favourite verse said "firmament".

Other than the fact he chose to put it on his own tombstone?

According to this author, it was one of his favorite passages...

It was for that reason von Braun chose, with his advancing terminal illness, a modest gravestone to cite one of his favorite passages of scripture. His gravestone reads: WERNHER VON BRAUN 1912-1977 Psalms 19:1. That scripture is: “The heavens are telling the glory of God and the firmament proclaims his handiwork.”

www.thespacereview.com...#:~:text=It%20was%20for%20that%20reason,%2D1977%20Psalms%2019%3A1.

The author should have known what the firmament really means, of course, but being a believer in space/moon travel, he probably didn't realize the great significance to this passage, related to space/moon travel...

However, since the author DOES say it was a favorite passage of Von Braun's, it would be interesting to find out how he knew it was one of Von Braun favorites...

Why would the author say that, if he didn't know it was true beforehand?

a reply to: turbonium1

I posted a quote from a work colleague of his which very specifically didn't say 'firmament', quoting him directly. Your point? Any direct quote from him? Any evidence at all that his interpretation matches yours?

No one is denying it was a favourite verse. What's being disputed is your spin on it, which is false and completely at odds with everything else he ever said and did.

a reply to: turbonium1

Your wrong he didnt use king james bible. In fact the giddeons usually use New American Standard Bible, However the King James bible can be purchased through them. though not normally given away free. His friend gives us a clue as to what bible he had in that he was an evangelical they always tended to use New American Standard Bible. The reason is simple they want people to read the bible and the KJV is difficult to read and requires interpretation . No one speaks old english anymore or even knows what a firmament is for that matter.

New American Standard Bible

The heavens tell about the glory of God.
The expanse of the sky proclaims the work of his hands.

Kind of fitting for the man that spent his life building rockets.

a reply to: turbonium1

So you blatantly lied what was Wernher Magnus Maximilian Freiherr von Braun‘s grave stone. And it’s not your only blatant lie.

originally posted by: dragonridr
Your wrong he didnt use king james bible. In fact the giddeons usually use New American Standard Bible, However the King James bible can be purchased through them. though not normally given away free. His friend gives us a clue as to what bible he had in that he was an evangelical they always tended to use New American Standard Bible.

You don't have a clue, Wilson was a Gideon, and they've always distributed the KJV Bible to hotels, among others.
Please read the entire article, below...

During the Annual Convention of the German Gideon Association, which was held on 20-23 May in Schwerin, North Germany, a testimony was given by W. Albert Wilson, a former NASA employee and Gideon from Tuscaloosa, which told how a rocket engineer was converted to a Christian through the Gideon Ministry.

The key character in this touching story is the world famous German born rocket engineer and pioneer of space travel, Wernher von Braun, who passed away in 1977, said Wilson.

When presenting for the Gideons’ ministry at a church in Morgan County, Alabama, Wilson was invited by von Braun’s secretary to his office because he was very worried of NASA’s rocket and space program. Wilson urged him to seek God’s guidance, and finally he asked and accepted Jesus into his heart.

“When I left the office, I knew that he had become a Christian,” recalled Wilson.

Von Braun often kept the Gideon bible that Wilson had given him in his office, and attended a Lutheran church. Later Wilson even found that his Bible was worn.

www.christiantoday.com...

Wilson said "..I knew he (Von Braun) had become a Christian", so we know that this occurred while Von Braun was actually working at NASA. Those of you who claim Von Braun was a Christian before he worked at NASA, or all of his life, or by WW2, or whatever.....prove your claim(s), if you can, because I'd really like to see it.

Why would you ever claim that, if you had no proof of it, right? You aren't making it all up, surely? Let's see the evidence you have...


Now, while I wait for your proof, let's move along....

Wilson said Von Braun was very concerned, or 'troubled', about "NASA's rocket and space program", so it was before the Apollo program began, at very least, when Von Braun spoke about his concerns for NASA's rocket and space program.
Von Braun retired from NASA on May 27,1972, about a month after Apollo 16, yet about 5 or 6 months before Apollo 17, the last mission that supposedly flew to the 'moon'.

So clearly, Von Braun was working at NASA, when he told Wilson he was very worried about their rocket/space program. We also know Von Braun had become a Christian by then, too.

We know the Gideons have always distributed the KJV Bible, that is a proven fact.

Why would you possibly suggest Von Braun never had a KJV Bible, when his Gideon friend and former co-worker at NASA, actually GAVE him a Gideon Bible?

Because somehow, you insist that Wilson did NOT give Von Braun a KJV Bible, the Gideons use another version of Bible, New American Version, which is nonsense, because Gideons have sent millions and millions of Bibles out to hotels, which - unless by request - have all been KJV Bibles! You cannot dispute that fact. Any other version(s) of Bible are at request of a hotel, etc.

Obviously, the Gideons strongly prefer if everyone wanted the KJV Bible, but that is simply not the case, some people want a later version, because - as you said - it's easier to read than the KJV is, today.

This does NOT mean the Gideons use some other version of Bible, because they don't. They use the KJV Bible, and no other version.


And your claim that Von Braun did not know about the Firmament being mentioned in the Bible, or used in this specific passage, despite his Gideon friend giving him a KJV Bible, the SAME Bible that the Gideons have sent out by the millions to hotels all over the world....

Hmm.... what did the Apollo 8 astronauts read from the Bible, out to the world?.

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.[7]

Jim Lovell
And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.[7]

Frank Borman
And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters

....
en.wikipedia.org...-flt-jrnl-ap8-day4-7

Do you seriously believe that Von Braun had no clue about what the firmament meant, after Apollo 8 mentioned 'firmament' FIVE TIMES, within a few seconds?

Compare that passage with the New American Bible version ....

Then God said, “Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.” 7 God made the expanse, and separated the waters that were below the expanse from the waters that were above the expanse; and it was so. 8 God called the expanse “heaven.” And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.

This version calls it 'an expanse', instead of the firmament.

When creating their New American Version of the Bible, they 'somehow' decided to remove the word 'firmament' from THEIR version of the Bible, and replace it with the word 'expanse', even though they have completely different meanings, and descriptions, in every DICTIONARY on Earth!


Unfortunately for your argument, the Apollo 8 crew read the KJV Bible, and mentioned the firmament over and over again!

You want to tell me that the Apollo 8 crew didn't know what the firmament meant, too?

Maybe you'll say they only read some passages from the Bible, at NASA's request, yet were absolutely clueless about what the word 'firmament' meant? No doubt, you'll demand I 'prove' the Apollo 8 crew actually 'knew' what the firmament was, and 'prove' that they thought it was a massive dome above Earth, too!

Most of the world knows what the firmament means, and someone who mentions it five times, to the world, will certainly know what it means too. Only a total moron might think firmament means 'space', or something! While ignoring the part about the firmament holding the waters above Earth, of course!


These Apollo 8 passages are within the original Hebrew Bible, within the Old Testament, and within the KJV Bible, and they all describe it as the firmament, in Genesis, or the Creation of Earth.

When the Apollo 8 crew told the world about the firmament, they were telling us their 'space flight' was fake, at the VERY SAME TIME they were faking it!

Nobody ever clued in.

I'm sure when Von Braun heard the Apollo 8 crew mention passages from Genesis, he didn't bother to know what 'firmament' meant, because his Bible never mentioned any sort of 'firmament' thingy!

But it was his favorite passage, anyhow. He likely 'assumed' that 'expanse' meant 'space', or something like that!

a reply to: turbonium1

Wrong they dont use the KJV like you want to believe. Easy to check go to a motel and look. In the mean time you can read this because people complain gideons are promoting falsehoods. And people claim they are controlled by satan. So i hate to tell you but they may have claimed to use KJV but they actually use the New KJV which doesnt even mention the firmament. in fact it leaves out alot of stuff see below.

www.lovethetruth.com...

After Apollo astronauts mention the firmament five times, and the creator of Apollo rockets puts a reference to a passage which mentions the firmament, on his own tombstone, it's about time you all clued in. Because they are all telling you the truth, word by word, and those who try to deny what they've told you, and make up absurd excuses for it, is the biggest mistake of all, because you've been TOLD it was a fake, yet you still refuse to believe it!

originally posted by: dragonridr
a reply to: turbonium1

Wrong they dont use the KJV like you want to believe. Easy to check go to a motel and look. In the mean time you can read this because people complain gideons are promoting falsehoods. And people claim they are controlled by satan. So i hate to tell you but they may have claimed to use KJV but they actually use the New KJV which doesnt even mention the firmament. in fact it leaves out alot of stuff see below.

www.lovethetruth.com...

The Apollo 8 crew certainly read the KJV Bible, and mentioned the firmament five times, so if you think you can excuse that one, then go right ahead.... I'd love to hear it!