Absolute Proof the Earth is Round NOT Flat!

originally posted by: turbonium1
After Apollo astronauts mention the firmament five times, and the creator of Apollo rockets puts a reference to a passage which mentions the firmament, on his own tombstone, it's about time you all clued in. Because they are all telling you the truth, word by word, and those who try to deny what they've told you, and make up absurd excuses for it, is the biggest mistake of all, because you've been TOLD it was a fake, yet you still refuse to believe it!

Borman got the idea from Joseph Laitin's wife to use Genisis. She was a Roman Catholic so when she wrote it down for him she used the KJV. Boreman did not choose that selection either. You dont seem to understand you want to make some hidden meanings when there isnt one.By the way Boreman was not a religous man all he wanted to do was recognize Christmas as a religous holiday.

originally posted by: dragonridr
Borman got the idea from Joseph Laitin's wife to use Genisis. She was a Roman Catholic so when she wrote it down for him she used the KJV. Boreman did not choose that selection either. You dont seem to understand you want to make some hidden meanings when there isnt one.By the way Boreman was not a religous man all he wanted to do was recognize Christmas as a religous holiday.

That's your excuse? One of their wives wanted her husband to read how Earth was created by God, where he placed the firmament above Earth, holding the waters above Earth, so they all decided it would be nice for his wife to hear it from 'space', although they had no clue what the firmament was, because they just read it all to make his wife happy?!?!?


I didn't expect your excuse to be so hilarious, and ridiculous, as that!

If it was about recognizing Christmas, they would just say 'Merry Christmas, everyone!' The creation of Earth and firmament don't have anything to do with wishing everyone a Merry Christmas, but it's very funny you'd try to use it as an excuse!


If someone went into 'space', they would never talk about the firmament being true, because they'd be complete idiots.

'Duh, yup, there's no such thing as a firmament up there, we flew way higher than it would have been, but I'd like to mention it being there anyway, since I'm a moron'

a reply to: turbonium1

Gravestones cannot prove the lie the earth is flat with only one side. (The earth, or any one body having one side is beyond logic anyway. Makes more sense the earth is spherical around a spherical molten core. Without gravity, why would the earth have a molten core?) The actual physical shape of the earth proves its shape, and that shape is spherical.

But this list proves the earth is undeniably spherical.

Distance to the sun measured by parallax

The way comets pivot around the sun.
Solar and lunar eclipses.
Comets pulled into the sun or Jupiter.

Over the horizon radar
Skywaves
Why shortwave has greater broadcast areas than ground FM
Why increasing antenna hight increases broadcast area
The sun sets over the horizon
The seasons
Why certain constellations are only seen from specific hemispheres
Retrograde travel of planets in the sky
Equatorial mounts for telescopes
Why Mars is closer to the earth at times then farther away
Visible man made objects orbiting the earth that were not there in the sky 100 years ago
Satellite TV
You can actually sail around the world
Airplane flight paths in the Southern Hemisphere
Eratosthenes of Cyrene measures circumstance of the earth around 249 BC
Earth's Curvature and Battleship Gunnery
Phases of Venus
Third party verification of Sputnik
Third party verification of moon missions
Third party / amateur verification of satellites in the hundreds. If not thousands
Star parallax
Earth based photos of the International Space Station.
Map projection
Great Circle paths
Long bridges and tunnels need to take in account the earth is curved.
Geodetic Survey.
Bouguer anomaly/survey


Sorry. Flat earth model is a blatant lie.

a reply to: turbonium1

And several Apollo astronauts swore on the bible that they went to the moon. Buzz Aldrin performed commmunion on the lunar surface. A number of them became more religious after going into space.

Prove they didn't.

a reply to: turbonium1

Quoting the bible and believing it to be true are different things.

originally posted by: OneBigMonkeyToo
a reply to: turbonium1

Quoting the bible and believing it to be true are different things.

And understanding when the Bible addresses items of spirituality vs the physical world.


Well. Turbo is back in the box until next weekend.....

a reply to: neutronflux

Indeed. Once again he's deciding what someone intends rather than knowing anything about the actual intent.

To address a point he makes above, expressing some kind of scorn on the idea that it was Borman's wife's idea that they read the opening verses of Genesis, once again he's acting completely out of ignorance of the facts. NASA had asked them to do something appropriate...

text.npr.org...

JIM LOVELL: And it was actually his wife. His wife came down and asked, what are you doing? And he told her the story. And she said, well, that's natural. You know, orbiting the moon on Christmas Eve - read the first 10 verses of Genesis...

KELLY: (Laughter).

LOVELL: ...Which is really the basis of...

KELLY: Yeah.

LOVELL: ...Most of the religions.

KELLY: Yeah.

LOVELL: And so that's how it came to pass.

The person who quotes the passage mentioning 'firmament' wasn't Borman, it was Jim Lovell. I've met him. He has honour and integrity. I'll take his word over someone who doesn't. While Borman was a lay preacher at the time of the mission, Lovell's religious affiliations 9if any) aren't mentioned. He has, however, been to space several times and nothing he has ever said anywhere at any time contradicts that fact, just like nothing von Braun ever said or did contradicted the idea that space travel is a fact.

Turbonium has nothing but bluster and word salad to support his case.

originally posted by: OneBigMonkeyToo

Indeed. Once again he's deciding what someone intends rather than knowing anything about the actual intent.

To address a point he makes above, expressing some kind of scorn on the idea that it was Borman's wife's idea that they read the opening verses of Genesis, once again he's acting completely out of ignorance of the facts. NASA had asked them to do something appropriate...

text.npr.org...

JIM LOVELL: And it was actually his wife. His wife came down and asked, what are you doing? And he told her the story. And she said, well, that's natural. You know, orbiting the moon on Christmas Eve - read the first 10 verses of Genesis...

KELLY: (Laughter).

LOVELL: ...Which is really the basis of...

KELLY: Yeah.

LOVELL: ...Most of the religions.

KELLY: Yeah.

LOVELL: And so that's how it came to pass.

The person who quotes the passage mentioning 'firmament' wasn't Borman, it was Jim Lovell. I've met him. He has honour and integrity. I'll take his word over someone who doesn't. While Borman was a lay preacher at the time of the mission, Lovell's religious affiliations 9if any) aren't mentioned. He has, however, been to space several times and nothing he has ever said anywhere at any time contradicts that fact, just like nothing von Braun ever said or did contradicted the idea that space travel is a fact.

Mentioning the firmament is definitely a conflict, beyond a doubt! The firmament is a solid dome over the Earth, all the stars, the Sun, the moon, and the 'planets'. Everyone knows what the firmament means in the Bible.

You're arguing that when an astronaut quoted this passage, nobody even had a clue about what it really meant, or didn't care about lying by quoting it to the world?

So they're just a bunch of lying hypocrites, then? You obviously suggest they are, from your argument.

Anyone who went to the moon, would NOT quote a passage about the firmament existing above Earth, knowing it did NOT exist! What would be the point of this?

a reply to: turbonium1

You

Mentioning the firmament is definitely a conflict, beyond a doubt! The firmament is a solid dome over the Earth,

Wrong.

How do comets travel about our solar system. How do meteorites fall from space pulled by gravity, and make it to the surface of the earth.

If comets can travel about the planets, travel around the sun, and meteorites make it from space to the earths’s surface, then rockets can travel the same areas of the solar system as comets and meteorites.

The firmament conflicts with comets, rockets in 'space', to the moon, and so on.

You think they were in 'space', and lied about the firmament existing.

I think they were lying about being in 'space', and that's why they mentioned the existence of the firmament to the world, that day.

If I had no choice but to lie about being in space, knowing the firmament existed, I would know God created the firmament, as said in the Bible, and would mention it to the world, hoping God would forgive me for lying about being in 'space', which implies God did not create Earth, and the firmament, which would be a betrayal of God. To quote Genesis is to beg His forgiveness in Heaven.

However, if I really went into 'space', I would know there WAS no firmament above Earth, created by God, as the Bible states, so why would I ever want to say the firmament was true, and created by God, if I knew it wasn't true at all?
There'd be NO REASON to mention the firmament, knowing it wasn't true, my wife would know it wasn't true, because I would have TOLD here it wasn't true, too!


Von Braun found out the firmament existed, first hand, and he found Christianity, and THAT IS THE REASON he referred to the firmament on his tombstone. He wasn't stupid, he knew what the quote meant, and said, you cannot excuse it as insignificant or meaningless that he put it as his last words. Don't be a fool, it's very clear to see.

The sun being several times the size of the earth captures the earth in a beam several times the size of the earth.

originally posted by: turbonium1
The firmament conflicts with comets, rockets in 'space', to the moon, and so on.

Ergo, there is no firmament.

You think they were in 'space', and lied about the firmament existing.

Thge only people who ever said a firmament existed in the past had no evidence on which to base their conclusions other than a deep seated need to explain the world around us in simple terms they can understand. Whether they meant it as a solid barrier depends on who is spinning the narrative. The Apollo 8 astronauts did not lie about the firmament. They quoted a bible passage as an appropriate way of celebrating being at the moon at Christmas. This is recorded fact. Any other interpretation is false.

I think they were lying about being in 'space', and that's why they mentioned the existence of the firmament to the world, that day.

What you 'think' (and I use that term avisedly) is immaterial. They were at the moon. They quoted the bible. Anything else is, as with other claims you make, entirely down to your twisted version of reality.

If I had no choice but to lie about being in space, knowing the firmament existed, I would know God created the firmament, as said in the Bible, and would mention it to the world, hoping God would forgive me for lying about being in 'space', which implies God did not create Earth, and the firmament, which would be a betrayal of God. To quote Genesis is to beg His forgiveness in Heaven.

They were not lying about being in space. They were in space. Your motivations for quoting Genesis are not the same as anyone else's.

However, if I really went into 'space', I would know there WAS no firmament above Earth, created by God, as the Bible states, so why would I ever want to say the firmament was true, and created by God, if I knew it wasn't true at all?
There'd be NO REASON to mention the firmament, knowing it wasn't true, my wife would know it wasn't true, because I would have TOLD here it wasn't true, too!

They were in space, they did know there was no solid barrier to that happening, and quoted a bible passage while they were there in celebration of it.

Von Braun found out the firmament existed, first hand, and he found Christianity, and THAT IS THE REASON he referred to the firmament on his tombstone. He wasn't stupid, he knew what the quote meant, and said, you cannot excuse it as insignificant or meaningless that he put it as his last words. Don't be a fool, it's very clear to see.

He did not refer to the firmament on his gravestone. Someone, and it may or not be on his instruction, referenced a bible verse. Some versions of that verse mention firmament, many do not. Some take firmament to mean a solid barrier, sane and educated people do not.

You have a long history of putting words in people's mouths and implying motive where you have no evidence for it, including members of this forum. You need to stick to what was actually said and what you can prove was meant by it.

a reply to: turbonium1

Then how do meteorites fall to the earth’s surface, where to they come from, why can a rocket not go to the source of where meteorites originate?

The only explanation is there is no solid firmament. You lose again Turbo by the hand of reality and falling meteorites.

The actual origin and intent of the Genesis reading is clearly laid out in detail in Robert Zimmerman's "Genesis: The Story of Apollo 8", a version that is more briefly confirmed by Bormann in his co-authored biography "Countdown". I own both books.

NASA had given him free reign to decide for himself the words that would be broadcast from lunar orbit. He struggled for quite some time with it, as he was a military man supportive of the Vietnam war and felt any proclamations of peace would be seen as both hypocritical and propagandist.

He asked friend and science policy advisor to a US government agency Simon Bourgin for advice. Bourgin was also unable to come up with an appropriate form of words and turned to Budget Bureau spokesman and friend Joe Laitin. Bourgin and Laitin both had journalistic backgrounds and were therefore experienced in writing for the public.

Laitin also struggled with something significant and meaningful that would have universal appeal. Given that the broadcast was to be at Christmas he turned to the bible, but found nothing suitable in the new testament. It was Laitin's wife who suggested looking at the start of the old testament.

The verses, along with the closing line for Bormann, were passed back to the mission commander who consulted his crew. Anders, a committed Christian, agreed with the choice as one that would have broader appeal than an overtly Christian new testament passage while Lovell, with no religious preference, also recognised it as the foundation of most of the major religions.

Those are the documented facts, verfiable by anyone who cares to make the effort to do so. The passage from Genesis was chosen for its significance to billions of listeners on Earth, not as some sort of coded admission that they weren't in lunar orbit. Any other interpretation is false.

a reply to: OneBigMonkeyToo

Just the fact the argument came down to a bibe reading tells you this argument is useless. Flat earthers often have this problem they have to rely on scripture in order to attempt to prove thier point. It never occurs to them by creating this flat earth it also makes living here impossible. You have to redifine gravity you have to change the way ight works. You cant explain what causes the moon and the sun to even move. To believe in flat earth you have to throw out almost everything we have learned in the past 300 years.

a reply to: dragonridr

Religious faith is a very personal thing. Scientific facts are not. You can't decide what scientific facts are based on your personal feelings about someone else's personal feelings - particularly when that person is someone you have never met and know nothing about.

Speaking of which, here's Frank Borman;s own words, both written and in the video from which the written transcript was taken:

historycollection.jsc.nasa.gov...

www.c-span.org.../frank-borman-oral-history-interview (45:35 onwards)

Harwood: —as a child. And it gives me chills right now thinking about it. How did you come up with reading from Genesis and—?

Borman: Well, it’s another example of the wonderful country we live in. Because Julian Sheer, who was the head of public information for NASA in Washington, called me one day. He said, “You’re going to have the largest audience that’s ever listened to or seen a television picture of a human on Christmas Eve; and you’ve got” (I don’t know) “5 or 6 minutes.” And I said, “Well, that’s great, Julian. What are we doing?” He said, “Do whatever’s appropriate.” That’s the only instructions. But—and that’s the exact word, “Do whatever’s appropriate.” Whatever you feel is appropriate.

And to be honest with you, we were so involved in the mission (and this was a peripheral one), so I just kind of farmed that out to a friend of mine, Si [Simon] Bourgin, and (from Washington)—and he came back—well, I guess he consulted with some of his friends and came back with the idea of reading from Genesis. And I discussed it with Bill and Jim, and we had it typed on the flight plan; and that’s—I didn’t give it anymore thought than that.

Harwood: And then the line at the end, you know, “on the good Earth.”

Borman: I think—On the good Earth. I think that Sy—I think that Sy had printed that, too. Had sent it back.

Harwood: Did you know when you were reading it, the effect—I mean, did it have that effect on you all up there?

Borman: Looking back at the Earth on Christmas Eve had a great effect, I think, on all three of us. I can only speak for myself. But it had for me. Because of the wonderment of it and the fact that the Earth looked so lonely in the universe. It’s the only thing with color. All of our emotions were focused back there with our families as well. So that was the most emotional part of the flight for me.

I've emboldened what I think is a significant part. Let's see if turbo can work out why it's important.

originally posted by: OneBigMonkeyToo
The Apollo 8 astronauts did not lie about the firmament.....

They were in space, they did know there was no solid barrier to that happening, and quoted a bible passage while they were there in celebration of it.

No. If they knew there was no firmament, then they DID lie about it, by mentioning it five times, and lied about it for absolutely no reason at all. Or, do you think they were idiots who had no clue what the firmament meant, even though they read, in part....

"And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so."

The waters under and above the firmament - the waters ON the Earth, and the waters ABOVE the firmament, which we see every day, as our blue skies above. You cannot twist it into something else, try as you might.

They didn't lie about the firmament existing, they lied about being in 'space', and that's why they deliberately chose a Biblical passage mentioning the firmament - five times, in fact.

originally posted by: OneBigMonkeyToo
He did not refer to the firmament on his gravestone.

What do you think he was referring to, by inscribing that passage on his tombstone? I'd like to hear about it...


What, exactly, is the difference between putting the actual passage on his tombstone, or simply referring to the actual passage, by reference number? The only difference, is that one has to look up the reference number within the Bible, instead of seeing it on the tombstone!

You're argument is pure desperation, I'd say!

If anything, it is MORE significant and important than a direct quote, because it makes people look into the Bible, to find the passage, and wonder why he put it on his tombstone.

You'd excuse it if the quote WAS written out on his tombstone, anyway, right? Sure you would. Look at how you're trying to excuse it, even when an astronaut DOES mention the firmament, five times! You make up excuses for it, when it's referred to on a tombstone, and when it's actually SAID.

Do you expect them to send it out by smoke signals? Morse code? How about charades, would that work for you?

Some have such an overwhelming belief, and faith, and trust, in what they are told, by their 'god', or 'demi-gods', that they will never doubt their words as true. No matter what the facts are, what the evidence shows, where the proof is found, these people will NEVER accept it is true. If their 'gods' finally DO tell them the truth, for once, they do not believe their 'gods' meant it as the truth, or at least, claim they don't believe it was meant that way.

originally posted by: OneBigMonkeyToo
Someone, and it may or not be on his instruction, referenced a bible verse.

Yes, and it should forever after be known as...

The Mysterious Tombstone Etching of Werner Von Braun

Some believe it was a top-secret plan, masterminded by Hitler, while hidden in the remote forests of Argentina!

Others claim it was a Jewish plot, who despised him as a former Nazi, and/or the families of thousands who had died because of his V2 rockets, or both of them did it.

We only know it is one of the GREATEST MYSTERIES of all time, and that it is STILL...... unsolved!

Obviously anyone can make up such crap, over and over again.... it's easy.

But, if it becomes your argument, or part of it, then it's a problem.

The idea of someone else - his wife, or relatives, or friends, or enemies, or NASA, or whoever - going out secretly, or privately, to inscribe a Biblical passage, by number, is - so much crap, it's alarming.

What would be the point, or reason, or motive, for someone else to secretly inscribe something on his tombstone.

That's some argument you've got here - unless it's proven to have been done at Von Braun's request, you will assume that he did NOT request it - based on about the 1 in one billion odds of it.

You don't assume it's far more likely 99.999 % of tombstone inscriptions, like Biblical quotes, or references to them, or a famous quote from history, or poems, or favorite memories, or simply a joke, to make people happy, instead of sad....would have all been as a last request, by THOSE WHO ARE DECEASED?


If you actually had a valid reason to make such a claim, you might actually believe what you say is true, or at least, you might assume it is, or that it's possible, anyway. But you don't have ANY reason at all to make that claim, this is why you're not being honest, and truthful, about what you claim here.

originally posted by: OneBigMonkeyToo
Some versions of that verse mention firmament, many do not.

Every version describes how it holds the waters above Earth, as I told you before.

So when you claim Von Braun had no idea about a 'firmament' mentioned in 'his' Bible, which called it an 'expanse', he would STILL know that it - whether it is called an expanse, or the firmament, or a dome - is what holds the waters above Earth, which means he knew it was a solid object, or barrier, which holds the waters above Earth.

I'm sure you'll barf up another absurd excuse for that, too.

originally posted by: OneBigMonkeyToo
Some take firmament to mean a solid barrier, sane and educated people do not.

It's sane people who believe the firmament holds the waters above Earth, without being a solid barrier - that's what you're trying to claim here?

That's a good one.

So you believe that he was a complete idiot, who didn't even think about what he was reading to the world, then?

After describing the firmament holding the waters above Earth, he didn't think about it, then, or in the 50 years since then, right?

But he sure is intelligent, while having no idea what the firmament means, reading about it to the world, but so what?

I'm still waiting to see a single video of a rocket, in daylight, that flies through the blue sky, because you believe there is no firmament to stop them from flying into 'space'.

Nobody has ever seen or filmed a rocket fly through the blue sky, anywhere on Earth. The rockets would appear to us on Earth as very small specks, against the blue sky, but for some reason, we've never seen one appear as a small speck in the blue skies, which they would certainly HAVE to appear, before going into 'space', yet none have ever been seen or filmed as a small speck.


It seems we can film and see objects trillions of miles away, but cannot see a single rocket appear as a small speck in our own atmosphere, which certainly proves one thing - they never appear as a small speck, because they don't fly into 'space' either.

Wishing it was true, doesn't make it true. Seeing it as a small speck would prove it was true, but NOT seeing it as a small speck, proves it is NOT true.

originally posted by: turbonium1

originally posted by: OneBigMonkeyToo
The Apollo 8 astronauts did not lie about the firmament.....

They were in space, they did know there was no solid barrier to that happening, and quoted a bible passage while they were there in celebration of it.

No. If they knew there was no firmament, then they DID lie about it, by mentioning it five times, and lied about it for absolutely no reason at all. Or, do you think they were idiots who had no clue what the firmament meant, even though they read, in part....

"And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so."

The waters under and above the firmament - the waters ON the Earth, and the waters ABOVE the firmament, which we see every day, as our blue skies above. You cannot twist it into something else, try as you might.

They didn't lie about the firmament existing, they lied about being in 'space', and that's why they deliberately chose a Biblical passage mentioning the firmament - five times, in fact.

Utter fabrication. They were in space, it can be proven that they were in space, they knew there was no barrier to them being there. The choice of Genesis was not theirs, their motivations for reading from it are absolutely not the ones you claim, as shown by their own words I posted above. Bearing false witness is a sin.

originally posted by: OneBigMonkeyToo
He did not refer to the firmament on his gravestone.

What do you think he was referring to, by inscribing that passage on his tombstone? I'd like to hear about it...

What, exactly, is the difference between putting the actual passage on his tombstone, or simply referring to the actual passage, by reference number? The only difference, is that one has to look up the reference number within the Bible, instead of seeing it on the tombstone!

You're argument is pure desperation, I'd say!

If anything, it is MORE significant and important than a direct quote, because it makes people look into the Bible, to find the passage, and wonder why he put it on his tombstone.

You'd excuse it if the quote WAS written out on his tombstone, anyway, right? Sure you would. Look at how you're trying to excuse it, even when an astronaut DOES mention the firmament, five times! You make up excuses for it, when it's referred to on a tombstone, and when it's actually SAID.

Do you expect them to send it out by smoke signals? Morse code? How about charades, would that work for you?

All you need to do, and this shouldn't be difficult for you because apparently you must have proof of it, is supply evidence that von Braun insisted this was to be his epitaph, that the bible used specifically referenced 'firmament', if it did reference it that von Braun specifically believed it to be a solid barrier that rendered his life's work pointless, and that he he was leaving cryptic clues for morons to drool over instead of just picking a nice bible verse that alluded to his dream of space exploration.

Some have such an overwhelming belief, and faith, and trust, in what they are told, by their 'god', or 'demi-gods', that they will never doubt their words as true. No matter what the facts are, what the evidence shows, where the proof is found, these people will NEVER accept it is true. If their 'gods' finally DO tell them the truth, for once, they do not believe their 'gods' meant it as the truth, or at least, claim they don't believe it was meant that way.

Bit rich from someone frothing at the mouth over a bible verse, donchathink?

originally posted by: OneBigMonkeyToo
Someone, and it may or not be on his instruction, referenced a bible verse.

Yes, and it should forever after be known as...

The Mysterious Tombstone Etching of Werner Von Braun

Some believe it was a top-secret plan, masterminded by Hitler, while hidden in the remote forests of Argentina!

Others claim it was a Jewish plot, who despised him as a former Nazi, and/or the families of thousands who had died because of his V2 rockets, or both of them did it.

We only know it is one of the GREATEST MYSTERIES of all time, and that it is STILL...... unsolved!

Obviously anyone can make up such crap, over and over again.... it's easy.

You manage it every weekend.

But, if it becomes your argument, or part of it, then it's a problem.

The idea of someone else - his wife, or relatives, or friends, or enemies, or NASA, or whoever - going out secretly, or privately, to inscribe a Biblical passage, by number, is - so much crap, it's alarming.

What would be the point, or reason, or motive, for someone else to secretly inscribe something on his tombstone.

That's some argument you've got here - unless it's proven to have been done at Von Braun's request, you will assume that he did NOT request it - based on about the 1 in one billion odds of it.

You don't assume it's far more likely 99.999 % of tombstone inscriptions, like Biblical quotes, or references to them, or a famous quote from history, or poems, or favorite memories, or simply a joke, to make people happy, instead of sad....would have all been as a last request, by THOSE WHO ARE DECEASED?

It could have been von Braun. It could have been someone in his famil going "you know what would be apt here, that bible verse he was so fond of...". Got any proof as to which one it was?

If you actually had a valid reason to make such a claim, you might actually believe what you say is true, or at least, you might assume it is, or that it's possible, anyway. But you don't have ANY reason at all to make that claim, this is why you're not being honest, and truthful, about what you claim here.

I'm not the one being dishonest or disingenuous here. I'm not the one fabricating history and putting words in people's mouths. I'm not the one wilully misinterpreting evidence and cherrypicking data.

originally posted by: OneBigMonkeyToo
Some versions of that verse mention firmament, many do not.

Every version describes how it holds the waters above Earth, as I told you before.

Clouds.

So when you claim Von Braun had no idea about a 'firmament' mentioned in 'his' Bible, which called it an 'expanse', he would STILL know that it - whether it is called an expanse, or the firmament, or a dome - is what holds the waters above Earth, which means he knew it was a solid object, or barrier, which holds the waters above Earth.

I'm sure you'll barf up another absurd excuse for that, too.

I make no such claim. His bible may have mentioned it, it may not. You have no proof either way. What I know for a fact that is that he knew there was no solid barrier preventing space exploration.

originally posted by: OneBigMonkeyToo
Some take firmament to mean a solid barrier, sane and educated people do not.

It's sane people who believe the firmament holds the waters above Earth, without being a solid barrier - that's what you're trying to claim here?

Yes. Strawman argument. Also Clouds.

originally posted by: OneBigMonkeyToo

All you need to do, and this shouldn't be difficult for you because apparently you must have proof of it, is supply evidence that von Braun insisted this was to be his epitaph, that the bible used specifically referenced 'firmament', if it did reference it that von Braun specifically believed it to be a solid barrier that rendered his life's work pointless, and that he he was leaving cryptic clues for morons to drool over instead of just picking a nice bible verse that alluded to his dream of space exploration.

When it's inscribed on his tombstone, that alone is proof he meant it to be his epitaph. Even more, because there is not a single reason, or any indication, that it was NOT what he requested be put on his tombstone.

It is YOUR claim that is trying to claim otherwise, without any evidence to support that claim. The fact that it is inscribed on his tombstone proves he requested it, unless you have any evidence to suggest he did NOT request it. You have the burden of proving your claim, because it has no basis in fact, or any evidence to support it.

One's tombstone is as personal as it can get. What is ON one's tombstone, is at the person's own REQUEST, because it DOES represent that person, and ONLY that person has a right to what is on their tombstone.

Do you think people go around putting things on other people's tombstones, or something? That's ridiculous.




What are clouds supposed to mean here, anyway? They are not mentioned in the firmament passages, so what are you talking about? The firmament holds the waters above Earth, not the clouds!