Breaking BAASS, Assessing AATIP and Doubting Thomas ‘DeLonge’

a reply to: mirageman

I agree with that only partially. Just because there’s no proof for the whole general population doesn’t mean there's no proof for some individuals since there likely are people who have experienced the paranormal... maybe not aliens or ufos per se but even there amongst the numerous claims maybe someone does know.

The correct point IMO is that it's not common knowledge. Conclusive proof to everyone as we have conclusive proof that the world is round and revolves around the sun everyone can see that, at least conceptually based on our faith in scientific lore... Well, minus the flat earthers.

Let me give you a real-world example of what proof is. When the 16th and seventeenth-century scientists who somehow got out of the clutches of the Catholic Church, Galileo, the English Isaac Newton, and others started discovering scientific truths, they couldn’t or, in some cases, wouldn’t tell the population...For a variety of reasons.

So, can you say or could you have said back then, at that time, there was no proof the world is round and goes around the sun?

I say no.

We are gauging what is proven only to the mass population. We have no certain knowledge that, just like the few scientists who knew certain scientific proofs back then( while everybody else thought the world was flat), there aren't people today who have such proofs of ufos, ETs, and other paranormal stuff.

So the question is proof to who?

originally posted by: peaceinoutz
So the question is proof to who?

I’ll be bias and say proof to me……..and I suspect likeminded individual’s.

Here’s an example ….of the hard physical proof I would like to see

These 5 Mythical Animals Turned Out to Be Real

Once a thought of a myth…..the platypus was a reality



Show me the reality of a real Alien…..that is considered a myth for some

Here we are 70+ years into the Aliens Myth and none of it has been shown to be reality to the general public that has interest.

Show me this…..but for real….a real Alien is all the world wants to see



You can’t……no one can’t at this present time…..until then, if ever….they don’t exist for some earthlings.

And yet, I showed you a real platypus…..

As a matter of fact…..I’m going to consider Aliens as Cryptids! Until they have been proven to exist and presented to the world

……”cryptid
noun
cryp·​tid ˈkrip-təd
plural cryptids
: an animal (such as Sasquatch or the Loch Ness Monster) that has been claimed to exist but never proven to exist
Contrary to popular belief, cryptids don't have to be supernatural, mythical or even all that strange—though many popular creatures acquire these characteristics as their legends grow.”…..

👽

originally posted by: mirageman
What we actually know, publicly, is that UFO sightings either lack sufficient data for us to have positive identification. Or they are hoaxes, misidentifications and misinterpretation of natural and man made activity.
So what is 'the phenomenon'?
It could in fact be nothing more than the product of illusion, delusion and confusion. Which we have evidence of. The evidence for something 'supernatural' or alien is scant at best. The best UFO cases all lack conclusive proof.

The proof is the thousands of testimonials
If you listen to them you realize that they are not just the product of illusion
For example Phoenix, the explanation is not enough
Maybe that object wasn't really in the sky, maybe it was just in people's heads ... but someone put it in the heads of witnesses
Certainly weren't just flares ...

Does someone know more than the public? Yes, there is more data held by various agencies. However, if UFO lore is to be believed and aliens are visiting Earth frequently, they would be tracked and seen by people all over the world. The anatomy of such a massive cover-up to silence everyone and remove the proof would be impossible. So maybe they don't know much more at all. Or such events are actually a lot rarer than the lore portrays.

Intelligence have been studying the phenomenon for 70 years, do you really think they have not understood something?
Intelligence personnel say otherwise, their cover-up is not working, there are so many witnesses ... Elizondo is just the latest
I think there are too many government witnesses to think there is a conspiracy to fuel the belief in UFOs ... hundreds of witnesses around the world !!!
UFOs are sighted all over the world, even in Italy recently but nobody cares, now everyone thinks they are falsehood

European ufology tends to be more scientific than American ufology. Whilst there has been a lot of great work in the US unfortunately it's also ruined by the grifters, charlatans and people who are borderline insane and the large entertainment industry that revolves around it. That's why the two Nicks, Redfern and Pope ended up there.

There is no scientific ufology here, Europe awaits the decisions of US intelligence
The CUN has always said that the UFO issue in Europe is managed by the French
Now everyone is waiting for the Pentagon ...
There are many scammers and charlatans here too but for some years they have disappeared. The interest in UFOs is nil, nobody listens to them ...
Many are victims of abductions and their social life is full of problems. They say absurd things, I feel sorry for them ... I think it's not fair.

originally posted by: peaceinoutz
Let me give you a real-world example of what proof is. When the 16th and seventeenth-century scientists who somehow got out of the clutches of the Catholic Church, Galileo, the English Isaac Newton, and others started discovering scientific truths, they couldn’t or, in some cases, wouldn’t tell the population...For a variety of reasons.
So, can you say or could you have said back then, at that time, there was no proof the world is round and goes around the sun?
I say no.
We are gauging what is proven only to the mass population. We have no certain knowledge that, just like the few scientists who knew certain scientific proofs back then( while everybody else thought the world was flat), there aren't people today who have such proofs of ufos, ETs, and other paranormal stuff.
So the question is proof to who?

John Mack in his book Passport to the Cosmos makes a quote:
The physical evidence, though quite real, “is as ambiguous as the phenomena themselves, just enough to convince those people who want to believe in their literal reality—just too little to win over the unbeliever” ( Patrick Harpur 1994, p. 148).

a reply to: gippo888

"There is no scientific ufology here, Europe awaits the decisions of US intelligence The CUN has always said that the UFO issue in Europe is managed by the French Now everyone is waiting for the Pentagon ... "

There is no scientific ufology in Europe because, wisely, in Europe there is a clear distinction between science and mythology. This includes France, which explains why some guys like Vallee had to fly to USA as he was perfectly aware his folktales would be treated in Europe as what they are: folktales.

On the other hand, resorting to US intelligence is done only when the European ATCs and gov agencies exclude any unidentified object as a military object of its own, something that is done precisely because there are US bases on European soil. Hence, the algorithm is quite clear in Europe: all flying objects are man-made, and the game consists in identifying whether they belong to NATO or not. Aliens are never part of the equation.

But the main reason why Europe is so skeptical about UFOs, as opposed to the United States, is very simple: geography. Europe is densely populated, there is nothing like the American Midwest, nor anything like Nevada, Utah, or New Mexico. In Europe, military bases are always located near large cities, and there are no test ranges that can escape the scrutiny of the population. There are no remote and lost places. Finally, there is no rural population scattered over vast undeveloped territories.

European skies are densely populated with all kinds of airplanes, helicopters, small planes, drones. The experience of an encounter in a remote location is, in Europe, simply impossible.

In addition, UFO sightings always occur in areas of contact between a rural population with little education in engineering and a military base that houses sophisticated fighter planes, something that happens in the USA, but not in Europe. In Europe, it is easier to encounter a high-speed train than a UFO.

In any case, Europeans are skeptical by nature, although lately they are becoming more nihilistic than skeptical. And that is precisely why, if progress is to be made in the identification of UFOs, it would be enough for the American intelligence agencies to provide European scientists with the data from the secret aircraft at their disposal.

Non-believers know God better than believers...

a reply to: peaceinoutz

....Let me give you a real-world example of what proof is. When the 16th and seventeenth-century scientists who somehow got out of the clutches of the Catholic Church, Galileo, the English Isaac Newton, and others started discovering scientific truths, they couldn’t or, in some cases, wouldn’t tell the population...For a variety of reasons.

So, can you say or could you have said back then, at that time, there was no proof the world is round and goes around the sun? I say no.

Eratosthenes, the Greek mathematician, had worked out the world was round 2000 years ago.

".....there never was a period of 'flat Earth darkness' among scholars, regardless of how the public at large may have conceptualized our planet both then and now. Greek knowledge of sphericity never faded, and all major medieval scholars accepted the Earth's roundness as an established fact of cosmology....

Stephen Gould [science historian]

a reply to: gippo888

The proof is the thousands of testimonials...

Unfortunately Human testimonial is subject to confabulation, confusion and cognitive bias. So cannot be accepted on its own as proof. People often cite how it's good enough for a court of law. But that is a fallacious argument. If people are testifying in a murder case, then there are certain established facts. Like a dead body and a chain of evidence pointing to the accused.

... Intelligence have been studying the phenomenon for 70 years, do you really think they have not understood something?

As I said before, if UFOs are something genuinely alien and a common occurrence, then it would be impossible to cover it up. The United States does not reign supreme across the planet with unlimited resources and power to remove all scraps of hard proof. They couldn't even stop a crashed F117A falling into enemy hands during the Balkans war. So a global cover-up of multiple alien events over decades is just not possible. One or two events? That would be a lot more manageable. But would also mean that most UFO sightings reported are man-made or natural.

There is no scientific ufology here, Europe awaits the decisions of US intelligence

I live in Europe. There is plenty of scientific ufology work being undertaken on our continent.

Fotocat run by Vicente-Juan Ballester Olmos in Spain, Project Hessdalen in Norway
Dr. David Clarke continues to investigate various cases in the UK.
And AFU in Sweden continue to collect various materials from European & Global ufology including a selection of Italian UFO books and magazines.

originally posted by: mirageman
Unfortunately Human testimonial is subject to confabulation, confusion and cognitive bias. So cannot be accepted on its own as proof. People often cite how it's good enough for a court of law. But that is a fallacious argument. If people are testifying in a murder case, then there are certain established facts. Like a dead body and a chain of evidence pointing to the accused.

The physical evidence, though quite real, “is as ambiguous as the phenomena themselves, just enough to convince those people who want to believe in their literal reality—just too little to win over the unbeliever” ( Patrick Harpur 1994, p. 148)
You can choose which side to take but if you do not consider the witnesses I think it is useless to come to this forum
If you are here it means that you have some doubts ...

As I said before, if UFOs are something genuinely alien and a common occurrence, then it would be impossible to cover it up. The United States does not reign supreme across the planet with unlimited resources and power to remove all scraps of hard proof. They couldn't even stop a crashed F117A falling into enemy hands during the Balkans war. So a global cover-up of multiple alien events over decades is just not possible. One or two events? That would be a lot more manageable. But would also mean that most UFO sightings reported are man-made or natural.

In my opinion they talk too much !!! Does this seem like a successful cover-up?
All the governments of the world behave in the same way, nobody likes to lose control of public opinion, especially over something inexplicable.
The phenomenon is elusive and does not want to be identified ...
I have read several times testimonies of NATO personnel who spoke of a frenetic attitude on the part of the US on UFO issues. Do not ask me the sources because they are memories of at least 10 years ago

I live in Europe. There is plenty of scientific ufology work being undertaken on our continent.
Fotocat run by Vicente-Juan Ballester Olmos in Spain, Project Hessdalen in Norway
Dr. David Clarke continues to investigate various cases in the UK.
And AFU in Sweden continue to collect various materials from European & Global ufology including a selection of Italian UFO books and magazines.

They are mainly private initiatives
I remember a single government research in Italy: Canneto di Caronia, do you remember the conclusions?
Do you think the lights of Hessdalen correspond to Fravor's testimony?

a reply to: Direne

Here too there are absurd and mysterious sightings
For example: Corio in 2018
If you listen to the testimonies you can't consider it air force training
Maybe mirageman could be satisfied ... I DO NOT

originally posted by: gippo888

originally posted by: mirageman
What we actually know, publicly, is that UFO sightings either lack sufficient data for us to have positive identification. Or they are hoaxes, misidentifications and misinterpretation of natural and man made activity.
So what is 'the phenomenon'?
It could in fact be nothing more than the product of illusion, delusion and confusion. Which we have evidence of. The evidence for something 'supernatural' or alien is scant at best. The best UFO cases all lack conclusive proof.

The proof is the thousands of testimonials
If you listen to them you realize that they are not just the product of illusion
For example Phoenix, the explanation is not enough
Maybe that object wasn't really in the sky, maybe it was just in people's heads ... but someone put it in the heads of witnesses
Certainly weren't just flares ...

The explanation of the flares is that they were a special kind of flares called illumination flares and that's pretty robust.

But if you think that's the entire explanation for the Phoenix lights, then you don't even know the entire explanation. You can be forgiven for that because the media has focused on the flares and has sometimes failed to clearly explain there were two different UFO events the same night, so the other event which is not explained as flares sometimes gets omitted in discussions, but Mitch Stanley is the person to ask about that, since he looked at the "non-flare" UFO through his telescope and got the best look at it of anybody as a result.

originally posted by: mirageman
Unfortunately Human testimonial is subject to confabulation, confusion and cognitive bias. So cannot be accepted on its own as proof.

Interestingly, the Phoenix case gippo888 cites is one of the better proofs of that, given we actually have videos of both events which can be analyzed to refute some misperceptions by many eyewitnesses, to the extent that the reliability of some eyewitnesses appears to be nearing zero after such analysis. That doesn't mean they are lying, just badly mistaken. That's for some eyewitnesses, however, there were other eyewitnesses who did describe the events more accurately in agreement with the video evidence.

Another proof is the Yukon UFO case also seen by multiple witnesses (30 or more are often cited), and in that case again, some witnesses described what they saw more accurately than others. However as far as I can tell, absolutely nobody got anywhere near close to estimating the distance to the UFO accurately...everybody was way off on that, which we found out after the "UFO" was finally identified.

originally posted by: gippo888
Intelligence have been studying the phenomenon for 70 years, do you really think they have not understood something?
Intelligence personnel say otherwise, their cover-up is not working, there are so many witnesses ... Elizondo is just the latest
I think there are too many government witnesses to think there is a conspiracy to fuel the belief in UFOs ... hundreds of witnesses around the world !!!

Well let's consider the testimony of Chad Underwood, by all accounts a highly educated, trained and experienced pilot who made the famous (or infamous?) tic-tac video promoted by TTSA.

He claims that the UFO/UAP in the video defies the laws of physics when it "accelerates" away at the end. And certainly no eartlhly technology can accelerate at such a rate, or so it's been said. However, careful analysis of the video shows that the acceleration at the end is an illusion and in fact there is little or no acceleration at the end of the video, it's merely an artifact of loss of target lock. So if this doesn't convince you of the unreliability of eyewitnesses, I don't know what will.

Of course there is some chance that Underwood knows the object doesn't accelerate and is just saying it does because someone in the intelligence community asked him if he would do a patriotic duty to help sow confusion and disinformation, but that can't be proven and would be completely speculative. However, I wouldn't put such a tactic past the intelligence community who trains their agents to deceive the public, and would benefit from the confusion or "muddying the waters" on the topic of UFOs:

a reply to: Ophiuchus1

I’ll be bias and say proof to me……..and I suspect likeminded individual’s

That still doesn’t mean people can accurately describe objective reality based on their own ignorance or not knowing something is the point.

One can say I DON’T KNOW for sure, but one can’t say IT ISNT SO BECAUSE I DIDNT SEE IT.

If you believe that, then back when they didn't know the world was round, then by that logic, the world was flat before everyone knew it.

Reality doesn't obey the ignorance of human beings. It is based on truth, not our not knowing it.

But it is reasonable to say that since I don't know it, then it isn't true to my knowledge.

a reply to: mirageman

But a vast number of people didn’t know that( the world was round) and many other scientific truths that we know now. I used that one as an example. Numerous others show us reality is NOT dependent on what any individual or groups of individuals believe or think they know or think or say they don’t know.

Objective reality depends on objective truth, not subjective experience or notions of any individuals or groups.

It's just like the scientists who thought a particular animal was extinct doesn't mean when they found the animal it was extinct just because the scientist thought it was.

Objective reality depends only on itself and that backs up your own view IMO.

So all I'm saying is that we just don't know universally the facts, but we CAN'T say objectively no one knows.

a reply to: Arbitrageur
Sorry, I know your opinions very well and they don't convince me
I was superficial because I do not wish to return to the Phoenix case ... I have already given
Sorry, I can't to have a too detailed discussion in english ...

a reply to: gippo888

The Corio-2018 event is a weak one. NATO carried out more than 100 exercises during 2018 involving all military bases in Europe. The event you describe perfectly match at least three of those exercises, which involved US air bases on Italian soil. In any case, the airspace above Turin is one of the most crowded in Europe, and Turin airport is one of the busiest airports in Europe.

Europe is slightly bigger than the US, but land occupation is seven times higher. You can have a look at ESA photographs of Europe and the US at night to convince you Europe, as seen from space, it is a continuum of glowing cities. No dark areas. The same view for the US clearly shows large areas where no visible infrastructures exist at all.
UFO sightings make perfect sense in the US, but I guess in Europe it would be very difficult to even see the stars.

grippo888, European skies are so crowded that military exercises there pose a real danger to civilians (recall the Itavia Airlines DC.9 downed by missiles near Ustica Island in 1980). I agree with you there could be anomalies and high-strangeness events in Europe, but it is extremelly difficult to isolate them from the clutter generated by a densely packed technosphere such as the European one.

So, even though the ufo testimony is not 100 percent conclusive, the vast amount of it is reasonable then for a person to have a belief in it.

I like many UFO events and flaps but also become a debunker on things like Lazar, Roswell, Aliens in caves eating arms and legs, Skinwalker ranch, Col Corso and his spiel, and many others, and on another level, TTSA, of course.

But there are many reasonable, evidence-based ones.

a reply to: gippo888

The phenomenon is elusive and does not want to be identified ...

Personally I take every case on its own merits and try to figure out if there is an explanation for it. Rather than trying to explain 'the whole phenomenon'.

You can choose which side to take but if you do not consider the witnesses I think it is useless to come to this forum If you are here it means that you have some doubts ...

Witness testimony can certainly be compelling to hear, but without corroborating information, we are left with little more than a story. My interest is primarily in trying to work out the solution. If something weirdly anomalous is discovered, then that's a bonus. The truth will always stand up to all scrutiny.

They are mainly private initiatives I remember a single government research in Italy: Canneto di Caronia, do you remember the conclusions? Do you think the lights of Hessdalen correspond to Fravor's testimony?

Sorry I did not realize you were referring to government research. The last ones I remember were the GEIPAN in France and the UK's Condign Report.

And I really have no idea if Hessdalen lights and what David Fravor reported are the same thing. There is some footage of the Hessdalen lights. But there is nothing in the way of photos or video to back up Fravor because he claimed to have forgotten to turn his helmet camera on.

But as I've said above, I take every case on its own individual merits. One solution does not necessarily apply to every other case. 'The phenomenon' may in fact be 'Various phenomena'.

a reply to: peaceinoutz

So, even though the ufo testimony is not 100 percent conclusive, the vast amount of it is reasonable then for a person to have a belief in it.

Indeed. We don't know what we don't know.

originally posted by: Arbitrageur

...........

I see the Art of Deception worked even on you Arby!!!

Can you see what it is yet?

a reply to: Direne
Military exercises are all scheduled and are never over the houses ...