Wanted: Honest intelligent productive thinking to resolve the issue God exists or not.

originally posted by: spy66

If God always was and always is... And God created the heaven and the Earth. This means that God must have some Properties.

If God always was and always is makes God absolute infinite. If God is infinite that means God takes up all Space there is...

So, before God created the heaven and the Earth. There was only God (The Infinite absolute empty void).

Before God created the haven and the Earth. The infinite void of Space must have been absolute empty because Heaven and Earth was not created yet. For heaven and Earth to exist they must take up Space. And heaven and Earth must be made up of physical Properties that are not infinite. This means that Earth is not infinite nor is Heaven.

Since God takes up abolute all Space there is,.... God must create the Heaven and the Earth for it to exist. But since God take up all Space there is God can not use external Properties to create The Heaven and The Earth. Because before God created the heaven and the Earth there was only God. To be able to grasp the answer to Your question it is important that you understand this bit.....

When God takes up all Space there is.... Heaven and Earth can only be created/formed out of the Properties of a absolute infinite empty void (The Properties of God).

This makes God both exsternal and The Heaven and the Earth at the same time. With Our termes we use the definitions to describe the differance between Infinite and finite.

................. All finites must be formed. The infinite always existed……………..


This is also related to time. Finite time always changes. Absolute time does not.

But God did say: Let there be light. The Word..... ?

OK I run with that...

So God is everything and nothing at the same time. We are not even talking intelligence here other than a force across everything, infinite universes type everything.

This is nothing to pray to since God is everything... there is no good/evil, nothing special about humans as in we are not his children anymore than a blade of grass, a sun, a spec of dust floating in the universe is his children. You could kill 7 billion people and it would be nothing more than shift energy from one thing to another...

There is no religion...The bible is just a human construct with nothing in it even remotely God like. Good and evil is a human construct...None of this effects the balance of energy in the universe. Evolution is just a function of "God", everything is a function of God. One day many many billions of years in the future our universe will be nothing more than micro particles so far apart that even gravity is no longer a force.

OK.... so what do we do with that?

originally posted by: TheConstruKctionofLight

The tzimtzum or tsimtsum (Hebrew צמצום ṣimṣūm "contraction/constriction/condensation") is a term used in the Lurianic Kabbalah to explain Isaac Luria's doctrine that God began the process of creation by "contracting" his Ohr Ein Sof (infinite light) in order to allow for a "conceptual space" in which finite and seemingly independent realms could exist. This primordial initial contraction, forming a ḥālāl happānuy "vacant space" (חלל הפנוי) into which new creative light could beam, is denoted by general reference to the tzimtzum. In contrast to earlier, Medieval Kabbalah, this made the first creative act a concealment/Divine exile rather than unfolding revelation. This dynamic crisis-catharsis in the Divine flow is repeated throughout the Lurianic scheme.

Because the tzimtzum results in the "empty space" in which spiritual and physical Worlds and ultimately, free will can exist,

So 3 simple words... The Big Bang.... Once we had Gods for everything we did not understand, 100s of them, so what makes this different in we can not understand the big bang and what is actually outside of our universe, so we say "God did it" just like we once thought the wind or a planet was a God.

a reply to: Xtrozero

Even the big Bang Theory is not complete

originally posted by: Xtrozero

So 3 simple words... The Big Bang.... Once we had Gods for everything we did not understand, 100s of them, so what makes this different in we can not understand the big bang and what is actually outside of our universe, so we say "God did it" just like we once thought the wind or a planet was a God.

I guess straw man arguments have something in common with lies. A book of popular quotations lists this one among them: “If you tell a big enough lie and tell it often enough, many will believe it.”

Repetition is key in brainwashing, conditioning and programming the human mind.

a reply to: Xtrozero

Nothing is a void of Space absent of finite. Nothing is like a absolute vaccume void.

Human intelligence (ID) is only present in the finite universe. Human intelligence is only present where humans exist.

So how do we adress intelligence when it comes to finite and the infinite..?


If God always was and always is. God is infinite. Before God created the Heaven and the Earth there was only God.
There was only a absolute void of nothing, there was Only God. God is the absolute void that takes up all Space there is.
God is the name we have given this void. This void compared to us have God like Properties because this void created the Heaven and The Earth. This void created the Foundation for Our existance.

Is this void intelligent..? It must be because if it was not Heaven and The Earth would never have been created.
A void of Space that is absolut empty will never change. Not even randomly. And not by Your command... Because this void of Space is a absolut constant.

This void of nothing created the Properties (Singularity) that formed The Heaven and The Earth.

How do we wrap Our heads arround that..? We have asked that question to Our selves many times.

How can Nothing create a physical mass… You probably would have to be very intelligent to be able to answer that question.
The other issue you would face is that you have to show it.

How would you get a void of absolut nothing to comply to Your Experiment..? You would probably have to ask the void right...? Unles you have the Tools to harnish this void and create something.

Not even Lord God had the Tools to harnish the void and create Adam. Lord God had to use the dust on the ground to form Adam.

Lord God also had to plant his own garden East of Eden. Why could Lord God not just say Let there be, and there it was…?


Lord God is a very intelligent individual. Lord God have the Tools to harnish finite to create life (Adam). But Lord God does not have the skills to order by his will anything from Nothing.

a reply to: Pachomius
God both exists and does not exist simultaneously.

a reply to: TzarChasm

If god can just piece together things, that’s like calling a home builder god.

A true god to me creates the reality. Makes the natural laws.

Or does god start where the physical ends/bleeds into the soul/spiritual.

If the aspect of this reality is only physical, I assume anyone can be a god. If there is a being that created the reality of this universe b” vs a natural process, that is a “true” god.

If the universe came first, anyone can be god.

If the universe came from the being of god, then there is a “true” god.

a reply to: neutronflux
God does not peice things together.....God is the whole.
Words and the belief in a you with separate power make believe that there are separate things.

What is happening is happening......it is the whole.

If the universe came into being by only a physical process, it’s a persons choice to belief the myth of god.
If the universe was created out of the being/soul of god, it’s still a persons choice to chase that truth.

To believe, and what to believe will always be a personal choice.

originally posted by: Itisnowagain
a reply to: neutronflux
God does not peice things together.....God is the whole.
Words and the belief in a you with separate power make believe that there are separate things.

What is happening is happening......it is the whole.

If I didn’t believe in god. How would you prove the universe was not the product of a purely physical event void of intelligent design?

Your trying to prove the existence of a “spiritual/energy” being by pointing to the physical universe that is evolving through physical laws?

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: TzarChasm

If god can just piece together things, that’s like calling a home builder god.

A true god to me creates the reality. Makes the natural laws.

Or does god start where the physical ends/bleeds into the soul/spiritual.

If the aspect of this reality is only physical, I assume anyone can be a god. If there is a being that created the reality of this universe b” vs a natural process, that is a “true” god.

If the universe came first, anyone can be god.

If the universe came from the being of god, then there is a “true” god.

That depends on whether you can provide a sample of the substance you call "god's being" so it can be studied and used to identify other examples of such substance.

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: TzarChasm

If god can just piece together things, that’s like calling a home builder god.

A true god to me creates the reality. Makes the natural laws.

Or does god start where the physical ends/bleeds into the soul/spiritual.

If the aspect of this reality is only physical, I assume anyone can be a god. If there is a being that created the reality of this universe b” vs a natural process, that is a “true” god.

If the universe came first, anyone can be god.

If the universe came from the being of god, then there is a “true” god.

That depends on whether you can provide a sample of the substance you call "god's being" so it can be studied and used to identify other examples of such substance.

If god was real, why would god allow to be caught in such a fashion? Can you catch a soul if it’s real?

Dear readers, please read the text below under the caption [For your orientation], so that you will know what the thread is all about.
_________________________



Dear posters here, try this procedure to save time and labor, in proving God exists, in concept as the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning.


1. We know that there is existence - do you concur with me? If not, you are an ignorant dummy.

2. We know that there are entities in existence with a beginning - do you concur with me? If not, you an ignorant dummy.

3. We know that entities with a beginning need an entity without beginning to bring them into existence - do you concur with me? If not, you are an ignorant dummy.

4. We know that we are entities with a beginning - do you concur with me? If not, you are an ignorant dummy.

5. Wherefore we are the evidence to the existence of an entity without beginning which brought us into existence - do you concur with me? If not, you an ignorant dummy.

6. Therefore: God exists in concept as the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning - do you concur with me? If not, you are a stubbornly insane ignorant dummy.


Okay, tell me which item, No. 1 to No. 6, you don't concur with me on.





[For your orientation]

For my definition of God: God in concept is the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning." -Pachomius [17 words]

And for universe, my definition is the following: universe in concept is everything observable to man, in particular to scientists to study - most importantly in regard to its origin.

This is the title of the thread from Pachomius:

Wanted: Honest intelligent productive thinking to resolve the issue God exists or not.


And the OP is as follows:

[posted on Jun, 25 2020 @ 01:12 PM]
On the assumption that mankind sincerely seeks knowledge, I submit that it is possible for any person to come to resolve the issue God exists or not, with honest intelligent productive thinking, i.e., thinking on truths, facts, logic, and the history of ideas. Now, honest intelligent productive thinking on the said issue must start with working together to concur on the concept of God. What do you dear colleagues here say?

[End of post]

originally posted by: neutronflux

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: TzarChasm

If god can just piece together things, that’s like calling a home builder god.

A true god to me creates the reality. Makes the natural laws.

Or does god start where the physical ends/bleeds into the soul/spiritual.

If the aspect of this reality is only physical, I assume anyone can be a god. If there is a being that created the reality of this universe b” vs a natural process, that is a “true” god.

If the universe came first, anyone can be god.

If the universe came from the being of god, then there is a “true” god.

That depends on whether you can provide a sample of the substance you call "god's being" so it can be studied and used to identify other examples of such substance.

If god was real, why would god allow to be caught in such a fashion? Can you catch a soul if it’s real?

But why would he hide?

a reply to: Pachomius

I've stopped reading your input, no offense but you are useless to the discussion.

Addendum



First, honest intelligent productive humans come to the existence of God, in concept as the creator cause of man and the universe and everything with a beginning.


Then afterwards, man seeks to know how and why God did it, okay?

originally posted by: TheConstruKctionofLight

Even the big Bang Theory is not complete

Of course it isn't... To say within our universe is a much bigger statement than it seems. Our universe is infinite with finite amount of matter and energy. Something happened 14.7 billion or so years ago when the universe was very small, like atom small. Big bang or big bounce...who know, but something happened and is still happening as we see the expansion. Will it expand forever until every particle is so far from each other that gravity basically ceases to exist and the universe become a very dark cold place, or maybe it reverses back and collapses on itself back to that big bang state, rinse and repeat forever.

I guess we will need to wait and see.

a reply to: neutronflux

If I didn’t believe in god. How would you prove the universe was not the product of a purely physical event void of intelligent design?

The creation of The Heaven and the Earth was a physical event. God said in verse Three: Let there be light and there was light. The creation of the firmament (singularity) is a physicall event.

Before God created the Heaven and The Earth there was only God. There was only a absolut infinite empty void of space. And we Call that void for God. Finite time dident exist until God said let there be light. The closest we can get to this event With Our knowledge is With Our Planck theory.

Since we can only observe the finite energies and matter that was formed after the event happened. There is no way you would be able to observe or create an Experiment that can replicate how a empty void of Space formed finite.

There is no way we would be able to observe anything beyond finite. Because how would we calibrate these sensors to pick up on a void that is absolut empty..? The other issue is the speed of light. Our universe exspands at the speed of light. We have no energies that can beat the speed of light that can pick up on anything in front of the expansion. The other issue how would a absolute empty void of Space reflect what ever Source we point at it..? There is nothing to reflect Our Source.... We have no finite Source that can pick up on this void.

When we create a vaccum the purity of this vaccum is defined by how many particles this vaccum have. We have no information about the actuall void of vaccum, only the particles that takes up Space within it's void.

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: neutronflux

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: TzarChasm

If god can just piece together things, that’s like calling a home builder god.

A true god to me creates the reality. Makes the natural laws.

Or does god start where the physical ends/bleeds into the soul/spiritual.

If the aspect of this reality is only physical, I assume anyone can be a god. If there is a being that created the reality of this universe b” vs a natural process, that is a “true” god.

If the universe came first, anyone can be god.

If the universe came from the being of god, then there is a “true” god.

That depends on whether you can provide a sample of the substance you call "god's being" so it can be studied and used to identify other examples of such substance.

If god was real, why would god allow to be caught in such a fashion? Can you catch a soul if it’s real?

But why would he hide?

The assumption is that there is something other than what there is.......there isn't.

The confusion lies in the belief in what isn't.

a reply to: Itisnowagain

The reality is: how can we observe nothingness…? We just cant.

The other reality is: How can something come from nothing..? We have no understanding of how that is possible. Because we can not make that happened.

We can only do as Lord God had to. Form Things from finite in real time.

Not even Lord God could say… Let Earth form Adam. Lord God had to do the job himself… Lord God had to Form Adam from the dust on the ground.

But what could God do when he said: Let Earth bring forth…?